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How are your air cav imperial guard armies doing in games??? ive assembeled my 7 valk force and ive been playing trying to come up with the best tactics , list and strategy to play these air mobile guard . i need advice and any lessons learned out there . i know theres tons of you guys out there with valk air forces

1. Make at least 4-5 of them Vendettas

2. Outflank

3. Shoot everything dead

4. zoom onto objectives

Pretty much.

5 is kind of excessive. It's footprint on the battle field is fairly large.

Best use of valks is to put a triple melta special weapons squad in them and drop them next to a land raider. Land raider disappears...

Can do the same thing with a triple melta vet squad for more points but you get BS 4.

There's also the trick where you use a psychic choir to drop a unit's Ld to 2. Then you shoot them, make them run, but you keep a valk within 6". They can't regroup and the valk chases them off the table.

Then there's flying them around the whole game at 24" so nothing can kill them. Then drop them onto an objective on the last turn and instant contested objective.

Kasrkinlegion wrote:Best use of valks is to put a triple melta special weapons squad in them and drop them next to a land raider. Land raider disappears...

Can do the same thing with a triple melta vet squad for more points but you get BS 4.

There's also the trick where you use a psychic choir to drop a unit's Ld to 2. Then you shoot them, make them run, but you keep a valk within 6". They can't regroup and the valk chases them off the table.

Then there's flying them around the whole game at 24" so nothing can kill them. Then drop them onto an objective on the last turn and instant contested objective.

How does 12 armor with 4+ cover mean "nothing can kill them?"

Also, how does a model that cannot come within 3" of ground-level objective contest it?

I agree they are easy to pop if you have enough long ranged shooting. They have the ability to take a grav chute, move up to maximum distance and drop a squad off onto an objective.

G

So far 6 games with the new Codex. 4 wins ( Chaos Deamon, 2* Space Marine, IG ) and 2 losses ( IG and Eldar ). The Guard loss was simply a case of the enemy fielding too much AT- capable units. My Vendettas achieved a vehicle kill-ratio of 3:1 in my favor but ultimately that wasn´t enough. The Eldar had 3 Falcons filled with Aspects and beat my Vendettas in the mobility game.
The Valk/Vendys are good but you have to avoid the "invulnerability- complex". You have to keep your wits when the enemy force is packing lots of weapons that are capable of punching AV12.

willydstyle wrote:How does 12 armor with 4+ cover mean "nothing can kill them?"

Also, how does a model that cannot come within 3" of ground-level objective contest it?

Is hard to kill better? They're going to take dedicated shooting to kill, not just one heavy weapon and done. Sheesh... can't use hyperbole any more...

We've had the discussion about how the base rules are with Valks on that other thread. I'll be placing a lot of objectives on higher floors of buildings I think...

willydstyle wrote:

Also, how does a model that cannot come within 3" of ground-level objective contest it?

I don't consider this to be a real exception. No one will play it this way. No one should. Get over it.

biztheclown wrote: No one will play it this way. No one should. Get over it.

( Raises hand ) I play. That is the way the rules stand until GW sees fit to offer an FAQ/Errata that says differently. But as always, you are free to make up a houserule with your opponents. I don´t bother. I just make sure to take the 3"- question into account when moving and disembarking my units.

biztheclown wrote:

willydstyle wrote:

Also, how does a model that cannot come within 3" of ground-level objective contest it?

I don't consider this to be a real exception. No one will play it this way. No one should. Get over it.

Please speak for yourself. There are a lot of people who do play it this way. We are going to have to wait until the FAQ/Errata is released. Until then, it's between you and your opponent to decide how to play this.

Forgive me for being a johhny come lately to this discussion, but is their actually folks who are stating that because the Valk base is 5" high they cannot negate objective holding etc? That is some pretty liberal rules lawyering IMHO.

The rules on scoring units say the unit has to be within 3". Since when did a unit's base stop being part of the unit? Please site me where I can find this rule.

The scoring rules specifically focus on 'units' they do not even mention models. Furthermore the rules that describe 'units' go so far as to tell us to measure from the base (nothing about the model).

Nurgle's Head Cheese wrote:Forgive me for being a johhny come lately to this discussion, but is their actually folks who are stating that because the Valk base is 5" high they cannot negate objective holding etc? That is some pretty liberal rules lawyering IMHO.

The rules on scoring units say the unit has to be within 3". Since when did a unit's base stop being part of the unit? Please site me where I can find this rule.
.

This has been discussed and pointed out in many threads already. Please refer to page 71 ( Skimmers ).

Nurgle's Head Cheese wrote:Forgive me for being a johhny come lately to this discussion, but is their actually folks who are stating that because the Valk base is 5" high they cannot negate objective holding etc? That is some pretty liberal rules lawyering IMHO.

The rules on scoring units say the unit has to be within 3". Since when did a unit's base stop being part of the unit? Please site me where I can find this rule.

The scoring rules specifically focus on 'units' they do not even mention models. Furthermore the rules that describe 'units' go so far as to tell us to measure from the base (nothing about the model).

Rules questions are available on the YMTC forums - as are threads dedicated to this question. I would suggest visiting one of those threads to get an idea of why people have different viewpoints before asserting that its simply rules lawyering. For instance I had someone claim that you could move under the vehicle since models can be placed under it more than 1" away, yet still use it as it were really not 3"-4" off the ground for objectives and disembarking. For me its one or the other, either I'm playing that the space under is occupied or it really is that high off the ground and no one can disembark, contest objectives etc.

Nurgle's Head Cheese wrote:Forgive me for being a johhny come lately to this discussion, but is their actually folks who are stating that because the Valk base is 5" high they cannot negate objective holding etc? That is some pretty liberal rules lawyering IMHO.

The rules on scoring units say the unit has to be within 3". Since when did a unit's base stop being part of the unit? Please site me where I can find this rule.

The scoring rules specifically focus on 'units' they do not even mention models. Furthermore the rules that describe 'units' go so far as to tell us to measure from the base (nothing about the model).

The rule is pretty specific. On p. 90 of the rulebook it says specifically that you measure from the model's hull. It also says on p.3 that you can't model the valk without it's craptacular flying stand unless you have your opponent's permission. Now I think these rules are asinine and clearly they wrote them poorly and didn't take things like skimmers into account. I would certainly not play this way and wouldn't enjoy playing with someone who would stick this steadfastly to rules in ways that the authors probably didn't intend (I say probably because with the lack of playtesting GW is famous for, God only knows what they really intended).

A-P you make a good point about pg 71. Of course the 'transparent' base described on that page is a far cry from the Valk's skimmer base. Whoever said we are not going to have any solid answers on this until we get a GW FAQ was right on target. I see a lot IG players having to 'dice off' rules arguments in the near future.

Back to the OP's air cav/ tactics query. I have been wondering how bad the deep strike deviation type moves have proven for Valkyrie players who chose to move fast and still air assault/unload their passengers? For those who have done it a bunch, has it made you consider putting the new Storm Troopers in the list? (ie. to help avoid the deviation).

Storm Troopers just cost too much to use period I think. You can have almost two vet squads with three meltas each for one squad of 10 ST's with only two meltas. Unless you're at a club where you know you'll being playing marines 90% of the time, they're not worth it if you ask me.

I have been dropping spec weapons teams and vet teams from my valks with a lot of success. Even the spec weapon teams only lose one or two guys when they land, which leaves four guys for AV14 beat downs.

The rule on p. 71 could easily be used in the case of valks since they are skimmers. That being said, the rule is kind of silly. You can assault something that's flying, but it can't hold objectives, doesn't seem balanced to me.

How is it that the Valkyries are 'hard to kill'? Do you consider the Wave Serpent (which has the same armor and a shield that reduces weapon str.) even harder to kill?

DarthDiggler wrote:How is it that the Valkyries are 'hard to kill'? Do you consider the Wave Serpent (which has the same armor and a shield that reduces weapon str.) even harder to kill?

AV12 with a 4+ cover save is pretty tough. Now it's not a land raider, but it's going to take a bunch of shooting before it's either damaged in a useful way or destroyed. Will it take less shooting than a land raider, sure, but it's not like you can bat it out of the air with one unit.

Are you really going to put a fast skimmer with AV12 on the front and sides in the easy to kill vehicle category along with Rhinos, Chimeras, Marine Speeders, and Vypers?

Definitely a lot of questions about how the Valk/Vend work with the base. I've played against people who want to do the footprint from above being where it occupies (in which case the thing is HUGE) and those who want to use the base.

Really, if it's the footprint, it's almost suicidal to deep strike Valks/Vendettas. Some part of it is very likely to be over terrain, trigger a mishap, and bad things can happen. Likewise outflanking is pretty hard since the thing almost always has to zip in 24" from a table edge and grav-chute any passengers. If it's footprint rules, the thing cant move on 6" and it's pretty questionable if it can come on 12".

We've mainly been playing it footprint. Which has serious implications. If you're going first, start it on the board, yay, good times. But if you're not, you're pretty much forced to outflank with it. Which means as often as not it zips 24" onto the board, wont be as effective as it could be, and dies. Sure, it gets a 4+ cover save but it's still armor 12.

Played Guard vs Guard against a guy the other day who was running his entire army outflanking carried in Valks and Vends. I was running a pretty basic Guard gunline. He had a nice ninja-Guard turn, killed a few things... then there were wrecked, stunned, and immobilized aircraft all over the place. Large numbers of autocannons and lascannons make short work of armor 12. I dont know if other armies have enough long-range firepower to deal with them that easily... but I'm not all that frightened.

Definitely a great delivery system for meltas and flamers though.

Anyway, I've run them a good many times.

Ivan wrote:Definitely a lot of questions about how the Valk/Vend work with the base. I've played against people who want to do the footprint from above being where it occupies (in which case the thing is HUGE) and those who want to use the base.

My biggest problem with the base is how hard it is to transport. It's almost as long as the valkyrie itself, is fairly wide at the bottom, and doesn't attach to the actual flat plastic part well at all. It's really easy to snap the clear plastic stand off the base because they're not slotted in any way, just glued. Transporting the Valks is tough enough given their size. Transporting them with delicate bases is going to use up almost twice the transport space. Mine won't be on the bases but luckily I don't play with people who are such sticklers for rules that they'd care.

My heavy weapons teams aren't on those stupid bases for the same reasons... oh well...

A-P wrote:

Nurgle's Head Cheese wrote:Forgive me for being a johhny come lately to this discussion, but is their actually folks who are stating that because the Valk base is 5" high they cannot negate objective holding etc? That is some pretty liberal rules lawyering IMHO.

The rules on scoring units say the unit has to be within 3". Since when did a unit's base stop being part of the unit? Please site me where I can find this rule.
.

This has been discussed and pointed out in many threads already. Please refer to page 71 ( Skimmers ).

If you really want to get picky with that rule, the rule states that "skimmers have 'transparent' flying bases....which are effectively ignored". The valkyrie's flying base is not transparent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kasrkinlegion wrote:Storm Troopers just cost too much to use period I think. You can have almost two vet squads with three meltas each for one squad of 10 ST's with only two meltas. Unless you're at a club where you know you'll being playing marines 90% of the time, they're not worth it if you ask me.

I have been dropping spec weapons teams and vet teams from my valks with a lot of success. Even the spec weapon teams only lose one or two guys when they land, which leaves four guys for AV14 beat downs.

The rule on p. 71 could easily be used in the case of valks since they are skimmers. That being said, the rule is kind of silly. You can assault something that's flying, but it can't hold objectives, doesn't seem balanced to me.

They arent worth it period. A shoot out between marines with bolters vs storm troopers of the same squad size is a dead even fight, whoever shoots first wins despite storm troopers getting a save (I did the math), except that storm troopers are an extra point.