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Made in us
Awesome Autarch






Las Vegas, NV

A friend of mine who is a really nice guy and not a power gamer in any way recently went to Kubla Khan to play in the 40K tournament. He got axed on his comp score with what I feel is a pretty soft Marine List. I am curious to hear what others think. Let it be known in advance though, that I am totally opposed to comp systems as I feel they are arbitrary, silly and actually make the tournament experience less enjoyable. We just ran a tournament here with no comp scores and everyone was raving about how much fun and how simple of a system it was.

Anyway, here is the story in my friend's words:

Alright, as some of you know, I went to Kubla Con over the weekend and had a great time. The highlight being the 40K tournament they put on every year. This year was an 1850 point army list using current codex's and all Rogue Trader rules. Fairly straight forward.Of the three battles I fought I had one victory and two losses. Every game was close and in some cases it was down to the very last turn (the seventh turn in my final battle). Great players and some of the best sportsmanship one could hope to come across.

Here was my army.

HQ 17.02%

Captain Caddius Brom of Terra (Lysander) 200pts.
Command Squad 115pts.

Elite 11.62%

Honored Brother Poe (Ironclad Dreadnought) 215 pts.
-x2 Hunter killer missiles, Ironclad launchers,
-Heavy flamer, and Drop Pod

Troops 43.24%

Tactical Squad Foil led by Sgt. Erickson 225pts.
-10 man tactical squad with Lascannon, melta-gun, and Razorback

Tactical Squad Rapier led by Sgt. Fillius 225pts.
-10 man tactical squad with Lascannon, melta-gun, and Razorback

Tactical Squad Axe led by Sgt. Drake 175pts.
-10 man tactical squad with Plasma Cannon and flamer

Tactical Squad Halberd led by Sgt. Dram 175pts.
-10 man tactical squad with Plasma Cannon and flamer

Fast Attack 3.24%

Land Speeder “Pegasus” 60 pts.
-heavy flamer

Heavy Support 24.88%

Land Raider Crusader “Iron of Terra” 260 pts.
-Multi Melta

Predator Tank “Broadsword” 85 pts.
-Predator Destructor w/ heavy bolters

Vindicator Tank “Bruiser of Dorn Mk. II” 115 pts.


Total: 1850 pts. 100%

Fairly straight forward. It played well and the combat squads (the ability to split any 10 man squad into two 5 man squads) helped alot.

The question I pose to all of you is this; Is this a broken or min/maxed list?

Kubla judges seemed to think so on a few fronts; My weapon selections and my choice of Razorback transports.

The judge even went so far as to mimic waving a bad smell from his nose when he said the list smelled "fishy". So, here I am, looking to all of you to tell me, is this list, which follows all the rules, a min/max job?

Thanks for your time.


   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Arlington, Texas

Comp scores do suck. That's pretty friggin ridiculous. It's about the same as being voted off America's Next Top Model. "Sorry, you weren't... ya know... enough"

Worship me. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Moving to 40K discussions.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob






Joplin, Missouri

I don't think it's a case of bad comp. You have a judge that sounds "fishy". What a douchebag to make a public statement. Over 40% troops with no minimum sized units. Unless the points don't add up I see nothing wrong with the list.

I could maybe see their point on the Razorbacks since the unit wouldn't be able to ride in them, but nothing says you have to meet the transport requirements in order to purchase it right?


"Just pull it out and play with it" -Big Nasty B @ Life After the Cover Save
40k: Orks
Fantasy: Empire, Beastmen, Warriors of Chaos, and Ogre Kingdoms  
   
Made in us
Elite Tyranid Warrior






This list has excellent comp, especially for a filthy Imperial scum list.

But joking aside, I would give this list an excellent comp score, as it seems to be well rounded, take all comers, and doesn't seem to take advantage of rules loopholes or cheesy combos. Especially considering the game record you had, which clearly reflects a very balanced list, calling this list a bad comp list is just crap. There was clearly some sort of bias going on with those judges. It is EXTREMELY bad form for a judge to make such an overstated and public display of negativity towards your list, and even if you had a list that did deserve a bad comp store (which, again, you don't), I'd say that comment was way out of line and probably should have seen that judge removed from his chair.

The problem with comp systems isn't that they suck, it's that they are like communism: They sound good on paper, but are far too easy to abuse to be successfully applicable.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/05/28 19:56:57




 
   
Made in us
Shrieking Traitor Sentinel Pilot






Seems solid to me as well. Balanced. Good troops choices. Each with a roll to play w/ the special weapon choices.

   
Made in us
Unrelenting Rubric Terminator of Tzeentch





Akron, Ohio

I imagine that the judge freaked out because of Lysander. A lot of people seem so skip over the section of the SM codex that says using the SC's with other chapter's is fine.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/28 20:44:08


DR:90S+G++MB+I+Pw40k07++D++A++/eWD-R+++T(Ot)DM+
 
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch






Las Vegas, NV

Yeah I agree, and am glad I am not an the far fringe of this.

My friend got screwed, what a bunch of sissy la la judges. If it had been me, I would have been pretty mad and asked them direct questions about why they thought it was cheesy.

   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

The razorbacks seem to stick out a bit. Whats wrong with the weapons? The whole list seems kind of "standard Marine list on any given sunday" vanilla to me. Actually the more I look at it, the more balanced and fun it looks to play against. A relatively decent amount of troops and not in pods (I'm bored with drop pods).

Whats the deal? EDIT: Now we've been burned before. It would be good to hear the other side before judgements are made.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/28 20:54:09


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
-






-

It certainly seems as if your friend got screwed.

There is not a lot (any?) min/maxing going on in that list at all!

Overall, a nice, well rounded list!

Oh well, at least he had fun, right?

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Would a bad list have scored better? Was he supposed to field a 10-man assault squad and 10-man dev squad to be a half-company? Because it's Lysander, did he 'have' to take terminators?

I think it's a decent list, but it's no Dual Lash-max oblit or 20 Nob Biker list either.

This is the problem with comp scoring. What someone sees as cheddar, another sees as being fine.

In the dark future, there are skulls for everyone. But only the bad guys get spikes. And rivets for all, apparently welding was lost in the Dark Age of Technology. -from C.Borer 
   
Made in us
Wicked Warp Spider





The Webway Gate in California


A very good way to add extra fire power instead of rhinos. The only fish the judge could smell was his own bias otherwise he would have invalidated your army but didn't have any good reason.

We were masters of the stars once and we shall be again

 
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

WEll, what was the actual comp standard? Was there some written guidelines, or was it utterly Judge's discretion?

I mean, I've seen every possible abuse and screw up in terms of comp. I had my all infantry IG company knocked down, because there were too many plasma guns and no Fast Attack or Heavies. I was shocked, as I thought all infantry IG to be one of the fluffier possibilities, but I guess it's ok to bring MEQs, just not the weapons that kill them. More recently, I was knocked for "spamming" tactical squads in razorbacks. A guy running three units of sternguard in pods with Pedro got full marks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/28 21:13:16


 
   
Made in us
Dominar






I think this is a total battlebox list that would get completely steamrolled by any hard lists played by equivalent-ability gamers.

I don't mean to offend, but your friend has got totally random elements thrown in willy-nilly ala a White Dwarf battle report:

naked command squad, no bikes, no apothecary, no special weapons
Lysander, but no obvious squads (Terminators or Sister Bolterdrill Spam) to put him with
one totally bloated ironclad
one speeder, no multimelta
one vindicator

As far as a list goes, this one has no redundancy and no duality. He can kill everything sort of okay, but only has the survivability of 45 T4 models. Any "real" tournament list should just run him over.

Bottom line, this is basically the perfect example of a Generic Chapter Space Marine army. If he got the axe on composition, I shudder at what sort of list-fu crap fest the judge considered "good". I'm guessing he just looked at Lysander and said 'OMGSPESHULKARAKTOR PHAIL!!!'.

This is just another example of why composition scores should stay dead, forever. It may as well be named the 'Is the Judge my BestFriendForever?' category with a yes/no box to be ticked. If yes, you win the tournament. If no, then better luck next year, and here's a list of the judge's favorite foods and pasttimes so you can spend the next year bribing him into being your BestFriendForever.
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Nah Polonius, they just found out about your bar card (aka its not business, its personal ).

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




What other kind of armies showed up to the tournament.

The real question should be: does comp even stop broken lists?
   
Made in us
Rampaging Chaos Russ Driver




My guess would be Lysander and the cut / paste tactal squads.

Boring? Sure. Cheesey? Nah.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Comp doesn't stop broken lists. It is either so many points, that people build their lists to get max comp score and the most power possible. Or, it's not worth enough points to offset getting a bunch of massacres, so people still play the toughest lists.

In the dark future, there are skulls for everyone. But only the bad guys get spikes. And rivets for all, apparently welding was lost in the Dark Age of Technology. -from C.Borer 
   
Made in us
Dominar






All comp systems do (at best) is create another set of criteria by which Gamey players can game the system. This is if they're posted beforehand and have clearly defined guidelines. Gamey players then find whatever optimal combo that will give them full comp points while still yielding as much theoretical power as possible.

Meanwhile, non-gamey players will show up with their list that isn't maxed out for comp, get dinged there, and probably also get rolled by the gamey players.

At worst, it's just whoever the judge likes the most, in which case it becomes a game of 'Do you play what I play?'
   
Made in us
Junior Officer with Laspistol






The eye of terror.

I've been struggling to convince the guys running a local tournament to drop comp scores. They don't use subjective judge-scored comp, but a comp "checklist"

Here was my army at the last tournament:

Farseer (not on a bike, standard stuff)
Maugan Ra

10 dire avengers (no upgrades)
Flamey flame of doomy flame storm guardians (in a BL waveserpent)
5 pathfinders

Firedragons with firepike exarch in EML waveserpent

One BL/sword wraithlord
one EML/Scatterlaser wraithlord

3 twin-EML warwalkers.

Not a bad list, but not a super list either.

Here's a list that I could have brought, that makes full comp:

125 Sorceror w/ lash of submission + mark of slaanesh

225 3x obliterators

225 3x obliterators

225 3x obliterators

244 8x plague marines, powerfist champion two melta guns

50 rhino w/ havoc launcher

267 9x plague marines, powerfist champion two melta guns

50 rhino w/ havoc launcher

267 9x plague marines, powerfist champion two melta guns

50 rhino w/ havoc launcher


The stated reason for their comp scoring is to encourage "fun" lists. That second list would be a helluva lot less fun to play against, and yet makes full comp. My Eldar list got 2/10 list-build comp points.

Why did the berzerker cross the road?
Gwar! wrote:Willydstyle has it correct
Gwar! wrote:Yup you're absolutely right

New to the game and can't win? Read this.

 
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch






Las Vegas, NV

Comp is totally flawed. It makes the gaming experience WORSE as it allows those it is meant to penalize a chance to gain an advantage.

Cool people give each other top or near top marks every time.

The one DB in the mix tanks people and gains an advantage.

Therefore, the DB is actually benefiting from a system meant to ding him or her. Fail.

Here is the report of another friend of mine at Kuble Khan, and she is a super nice girl, still learning the game for crying out loud:

I was there too and got judge-screwed as well. My tyranid list wasn't "Niddy" enough. Apparently I can have Nid'zilla or swarm and no in between. >.<

But the games were awesome and I still had a great time.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

@Reece:

Fluff-wise, I'd score it no higher than 3 out 5. Clearly, the player tried to soften a lot of the edges, and deserves credit for doing so. By the Codex Astartes TOC, if he's taking Razors & Raider, then he really should be capable of full-transport. Also, with so much Heavy, there should be more variety with a Dev squad or else an Assault Squad. And then, there's the Special Character.

From a technical comp standpoint, I'd could score it a bit higher, up to 4/5. Lysander isn't such a big deal, but MAX Heavies don't outweigh the 4 Troops.
____

@willy:

I have no idea what checklist you're using that doesn't penalize maximum identical Heavies in the second list. On a 10-pt scale, I'd subtract at least 2 points for the Heavies alone.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Reecius wrote:Comp is totally flawed. It makes the gaming experience WORSE

Comp makes the experience DIFFERENT, not worse.

There's nothing wrong with Comp, as long as all players know that Comp will be part of the event beforehand, and can have some idea as to how Comp will work.

The fact that Comp cannot perfectly capture and penalize all bad builds, nor recognize and reward all good builds simply means that it is a human endeavor, and inherently flawed.

But to say that Comp is more flawed than non-Comp is odd.

The only issue I'd have is if Comp were imposed as a requirement, or a last-minute surprise. Otherwise, I wouldn't sweat it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/05/29 00:05:32


   
Made in ca
Stealthy Space Wolves Scout






Windsor, Ontario

all comp scores do is take the responsibility out of the hands of the players, and put them in the hands of the judge. In this case, one with serious mental issues

seriously though, I think comp scores have their place, but shouldn't be a singular decision. The last tournament I was in handled it quite well, I think. They had a handful of judges (5 or so) and each individually comp scored all the lists (they took in army lists a month prior to the event), then the scores were averaged and THAT became your comp score. Leaves most of the subjectivity out of it.

What gets me is that I've yet to see a comp scoring system that properly handles gamey lists without being biased army to army. Most systems I've seen give all but the worst ork lists (see killa kan/kustom force field spam, or 5 battlewagons) virtually perfect comp, whereas other armies it's hard to field even a reasonable, let alone competitive, army within the confines of the system. 40k's rules favour particular armies, it's just a fact of life (look at how many armies got much stronger/weaker when 5e came out). All comp scores do is shift that favourtism to a different group of armies, depending on the style of system.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting we stop comp scoring all together; then we just end up with the same dozen or so power lists, because people think they'll auto-lose if they don't bring them. I just haven't seen a system yet that properly balances army vs. army, and comp score vs. battle score.
   
Made in au
Anti-Armour Swiss Guard






Newcastle, OZ

Can't see an issue with it, really.

Would've scored pretty well here (except for lysander, but a lot of people just don't like SCs still).

Need to see the actual tournament comp guidelines to get the context, though.

Sounds like not so much that 'comp' sucked as the TOs might have disliked certain armies.

I'm OVER 50 (and so far over everyone's BS, too).
Old enough to know better, young enough to not give a ****.

That is not dead which can eternal lie ...

... and yet, with strange aeons, even death may die.
 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins






Scranton

i think comp sucks. there was a reason GW dropped it out of the codices.

 
   
Made in ca
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Dis-satisfaction with composition rules is one reason why I think that some tournaments should have pre-generated lists that Tournament Organizers should publish upon announcing sign-up for the tournament. If Tournament Organizers want to see a particular list, or don't want to see others, then they should define what is acceptable and what is not.

Leave the list-building to the 'Ard-boyz, as sometimes players should just bring miniatures and rely on their skill at playing the game with the forces they have available, like a real general. It would certainly make it easier for Tournament Organizers to tune scenarios, and it would make painting a matter of comparing apples to apples.
   
Made in us
Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos






Toledo, OH

Well, there are several issues that make any standard tough to articulate.

First is the difference between Fluffyness, theme, comp, and cheese. Most systems seem to really only check a few of these.

Fluffiness is the how well the army hews to the established background of the 40k universe. This mostly involves armies looking like examples of task forces from 40k stories. This is a hard one to judge because not all fluff is equally accessible, and some armies have far more established background than others. It's easy to, say, give an example of a typical 1500pt Ultramarine army, but it's much harder for Nids or Necrons.

Theme is how internally consistent the army is in the story it's telling. An army with good theme looks like an actual fighting unit in the 40k universe. This is probably the most subjective way to judge, as theme is what you make of it. It's also the least punishing to powerlists, as it's easy to craft a theme around the best units in any codex.

Comp is usually a more mechanical system, judging lists based on what is included, in what proportions, the rate of repetition, and so on. The problem here is that any system of standards is easy to "game." There is a pretty well established idea of what the best armies in the current metagame are. Simply pick the one that does the best under that system, and profit.

Cheese is what all these are meant to limit, of course. This isn't a "is there cheese" type post, so just bear with me that I mean "powerful" when I type cheesy. There are a few instances of "I know it when I see it" type stuff, but outside of a few gimmicks, few lists are really unbeatably good.

To really succeed, I think a comp system would need to attack the problem at it's base: simply ban or restrict the best units or combos, and/or provide a bonus for taking subpar units.

Go through every codex, and assign a value to each unit. Multiple the value of each unit by it's cost, add it all, divide by the size of the army and that is your armies rough power level. As time goes on, and it becomes more refined, certain unit combos might be seperated (so tactical marines with melta, combi-melta, multi-melta and razorback score higher than the same with flamer, missile launcher, and rhino).

The key is to balance how much of the overall this comp counts for, but if done properly, I think it should be enough to allow a midlevel list that went 2-1 to equal a top notch list that went 3-0.
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Madrak Ironhide







frgsinwntr wrote:i think comp sucks. there was a reason GW dropped it out of the codices.


What are you talking about? Comp was in the codices?

DR:70+S+G-MB-I+Pwmhd05#+D++A+++/aWD100R++T(S)DM+++
Get your own Dakka Code!

"...he could never understand the sense of a contest in which the two adversaries agreed upon the rules." Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude 
   
Made in au
Anti-Armour Swiss Guard






Newcastle, OZ

Yep, back in 2nd ed, it was.

% for this.
% for this
% for support units.


I'm OVER 50 (and so far over everyone's BS, too).
Old enough to know better, young enough to not give a ****.

That is not dead which can eternal lie ...

... and yet, with strange aeons, even death may die.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

@chromedog:

The % system wasn't "comp", at least not as we now know comp, because you couldn't take 100% Support.

The % system was effectively the old FOC, except it counted points instead of units.

The FOC was brought in, because it allowed for games (with more models) to be played at arbitrary points sizes, simply counting the total, rather than having to count multiple subtotals. Simpler and easier, in the same way that KPs finally replace VPs.

   
 
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