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Looking over some other miniature producers for inspiration for my project of building a whfb army without using a GW figure, something is quite obvious, the lack of option on otherwise amazing figures. When I look at a pack of 3 orcs, it's a mix of 2 models, 2 of 1 and 1 of the other, a series of heads, legs and torsos would be just as easy to sculpt and provide scope for building large units. I don't want the units to be made of only a couple of mini choices, the warhammer armies from my youth looked like that, we are 20+ years later now, why aren't other companies picking this up?

So why isn't multipart almost a must by now, not for characters, but certainly for rank and file minis?

MeanGreenStompa wrote:a series of heads, legs and torsos would be just as easy to sculpt

Really not.

For multipart to work, the different pieces all need to fit together in a number of different ways... otherwise there's no point doing it.

So the sculptor isn't just sculpting 3 individual minis... he's sculpting 3 minis that have to be all interconnectible. That's more work.

It's also more work to cast, since you're casting more pieces.


Many gamers absolutely detest multipart metal models. They're fiddly to assemble, and if they're not designed particularly well only go together so many ways anyway. So some companies won't even consider the idea, for fear of alienating their customer base.

And they're ultimately a waste of time for rank and file, since most of the detail gets lost in the ranks. That's the whole reason that GW switched back to fewer piece models for rank and file models in WHFB.

several heads, ball and socket arms, a couple of body and leg movement poses would give a unit a hint of realism and avoid the single model making up a rank of 50 (remember those plastic skaven...millions in the same position).

And metal, why not plastic, why aren't we seeing other companies producing multipart plastic boxed units like the GW ones? Reaper are only now previewing some of their single pose plastic goblins, why is their tech taking so long to catch up? Is the machinery or set up for sprue producing very much more expensive?

Metal is more cost effective unless you're selling scads of them.

Most of the smaller companies simply don't have the sales to justify the investment required for plastic tooling.

That's changing as the technology gets cheaper, but even so plastic won't take over in some quarters because it holds an inferior level of detail, and because some people just prefer the heft of metal.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:And metal, why not plastic, why aren't we seeing other companies producing multipart plastic boxed units like the GW ones? Reaper are only now previewing some of their single pose plastic goblins, why is their tech taking so long to catch up? Is the machinery or set up for sprue producing very much more expensive?

Because, I think, the "converting" culture is pretty unique to GW. Outside of GW's promotion, other "systems" aren't really that big on it because their games systems do not require it in the way that GW's wargear does. In, for instance, Warmachine, you get your set weapons and that is it. So only one model "load out" is required. The games do not generate the demand, therefore the customers do not make the demand.

I hear things are changing with the new Elf faction for Warmachine - their Jacks are supposed to come as a basic chassis with three potential weapons builds to represent 3 different Jacks, or something. But its early days, and no-one outside the company has seen the final product.

Other fantasy companies that use plastic (e.g. Kraken, Rackham) just produce the one model per character.

The new 28mm plastic historicals that are coming out from the Perry twins and Warlord etc., are more multi-part - so you can vary poses and swap banners/heads/hats etc. though, so it seems things are starting this way now in historicals. It seems that in the last 2 or 3 years the mould-production techonology has reduced dramatically in price from when GW first started doing it 20 years back, and its now at the stage where much smaller companies can afford the capital outlay.

How about doing the old fashioned converting thing? There are two/three different models, start chopping them up, use some greenstuff and you create tons of different ones.

Is it just me or has the modeller of this generation become a bit lazier than the old school one?

The Dream Pod 9 guys (Which, in the interest of disclosure, I do some work for) encourage a certain amount of converting... Most models can be fielded with a bunch of different weapon options as well as bolt-ons like sat uplinks.

Sadly plastics are still expensive for a small game line, although a lot of the bigger stuff from the Pod is being done in resin to keep the cost managable.

Resin isn't so hard to work with, the models from Troll Forged Miniatures are made from that stuff, I've got a few and well...cutting them up and all is fun!

If you look at the sci fi range of it, the models made by Icesword (who is also a member here), such as the mutants, greatcoats and zombies are easily converted by simply cutting off the heads, arms, torsos and repositioning them and such.

For example, look at his original big mutant model:


With a little bit of cutting, glueing and bits (which I made from insides of lighters which were then cast) I turned that model into this:




(still WIP though)

With Troll Forged Miniatures we do hope to bring some variation bits out in the longer run, but they would probably be sort of add-ons for existing kits, not sure yet though...

Malika2 wrote:How about doing the old fashioned converting thing? There are two/three different models, start chopping them up, use some greenstuff and you create tons of different ones.

Is it just me or has the modeller of this generation become a bit lazier than the old school one?

/swipe

I'm 32, I owned a 10,000pt chaos army when the 1st realm of chaos book was released and converted many of the figures, my 4 armed converted daemonette slaaneshi general still lurks in a toolbox in the dining room. Back in those days and all the way through we saw single pose units, they were ugly. But even all the way back then, we had the skeleton horde boxed set, the squats were released, orks, imp guard (how I miss those guys) and heck, even that bizarre regiments box with 10 of each of the dorfs, elves, d elves, skaven and gobbos had two head choices for them.

I can't see it being lazy to want to buy a unit of orcs and have the ability to include some movement and individuality in them from the get go. Whilst we are at it, the models I am seeing are also often lacking in movement anyway so that a simple arm or head cut and reposition would be difficult.

Whilst GW own many images and ideas, most especially in 40k, the ranges for fantasy are fairly generic, other companies should be lining up to produce better looking armies of the same races at a less insane price. Whilst the world is a big place, the fantasy wargames hobby is a smallish one now thanks to the interwebs, if companies were producing the goods, word of mouth would spread and these army ranges would be selling.

Oh and these guys are looking like the way to go for me...

http://www.gamezoneminiatures.de/ some awesome looking miniatures, they do this far more impressively than gw

Not everybody is as adept at hacking apart models and adding a little greenstuff magic, or are we advocating trial and error? Cock up and you just buy another one, right? Wrong.

Gamezone seems a bit more pricey than GW - but if that is the detail you want, they appear to have a high level of detail.

Not sure what army you want, but Wargames has some nice piecemeal items.

I'm still trying to figure out a way to get the Romans into a WHFB army . . . .

I'm sure the celt line could be an easy fit for WoC - AND they have Germans coming . . . . Oh yeah.

BrookM wrote:Not everybody is as adept at hacking apart models and adding a little greenstuff magic, or are we advocating trial and error? Cock up and you just buy another one, right? Wrong.

I wouldn't immediately buy the expensive Marneus Calgar kit to practise on. I'd rather practise on some old single piece plastic models I've got lying around.

Maybe my remark about the laziness was a bit harsh, but it's just a vibe I'm getting nowadays, it seems people want their stuff ready for work, sort of regurgitated. I do think that learning it the hard way ("trail and error" and work with what you can get your hands on) is a better learning experience for the modeller. You could kind of compare it to the first (plastic) surgeons during WWI who were forced to use really crude equipment, but learned to get the job done. Now they were getting pretty good with the crude stuff, imagine if you would then give them more fancy materials, their work would be even better. With modelling I kind of have a similar view.

You don't get to become Golden Demon standard in one day, not that I'm saying everybody should do/want that, but the point is that it takes practise to convert something decent.

Besides a lot of the multi-part kits, whilst interesting (and quite cool) tend to get the same results, with this I mean that most people pose their figures in the same way or that poses really look off. I mean, most Cadian models are pretty much the same, I don't see why you would need to glue 100+ models in the same position if you could just as well have 100+ single part models in 5 different poses with a minor conversion here and there. Some other kits, such as the Chaos Marauders or Catachans, just look wrong, the arm muscles look really chunky and Marvel Comics like, but in any other pose than pointing them forward the muscle looks unnatural.

Don't get me wrong though, I'm not against multipart kits, but I don't see anything wrong with people practising conversionwork through trail and error and being "forced" to improvise a bit here and there.

Capital outlay for plastic molding facilities is huge. But cost of plastic is low. Conversely, metal molding technology is cheaper, but metal is more expensive.

This is kind of why you see Resin, Metal and Plastic figs:
Resin for very small productions (rarer mini's like forgeworld)
Metal for medium productions (things that people only need one of)
Plastic for huge production runs (things that everyone and their squig needs twenty of). That being said, plastic molding costs seem to be dropping significantly, as GW is producing a lot of stuff in plastic now.

Not many companies have the playerbase to support extensive use of plastic kits.
Further, not a huge amount of companies deal with the number of models per player that GW does, so the need for multi-posable figs is lower still.


Mutli-part plastic kits are awesome, but a lot of people don't want to risk ruining their expensive models (even plastic kits are expensive for some of us) by dodgying them up with greenstuff. Most of the kids i've seen try this frankly end up butchering otherwise nice minis. I mean, its awesome that they try and hopefully they will improve, but taking the plunge is a big step.
Some models look good in a fairly generic position (I think i have 20 'pewpew kneeling' firewarriors) and even with a multi-part kit there are only so many poses that look realistic. I also dislike catachan/marauder minis, but what can you do about it? The possiblities are there and many people do amazing kitbashes that wouldn't ever come to be in metal.
(my posts tend to not make a lot of sense after a while)

In short: if you want varied poses, either buy billions of minis from other companies to push their revenues up enough that they will have enough to invest in plastic tech: or convert their single pose models; or use GW stuff.

Resin isn't that difficult to work with, yes I know the attempt to convert might be a big step for many, but with single piece resin models the cutting up isn't that much harder that lets say plastic. It's the metal models which are more difficult to work with. If model makers could make resin modes in a few different poses and with easy removable/exchangable parts, people would be less scared of trying to convert them. Simply swap a torso or a head, maybe cut the arm of one model and put it on the other one. The only greenstuff that might be needed then is perhaps to fill a gap here and there. (kind of like the big mutant I was working on)

In short: if you want varied poses, either buy billions of minis from other companies to push their revenues up enough that they will have enough to invest in plastic tech: or convert their single pose models; or use GW stuff.

I would hope to see some more encouragement for converting stuff. Companies such as Privateer Press should perhaps release articles and such on how to convert their miniatures (cool tutorials etc), this way people could do so much more with what they have. This would especially be possible now that they are also going to release some plastic miniatures.

The GW stuff option isn't really one for me, I use what GW bits I have left but simply refuse to keep buying from them, it's a weird principle thing. I love their background, I love what people do with their minis, but I feel like I've invested enough money into their company over the years and am more interested in the small companies out there.

BrookM wrote:Not everybody is as adept at hacking apart models and adding a little greenstuff magic, or are we advocating trial and error? Cock up and you just buy another one, right? Wrong.

Ultimately, you learn by doing. I've messed up several minis, and it's tough throwing them out.

I've come to think it's a sign of growth as an artist (or hobbyist) when one is willing to throw out unsalvagable projects, or at least admit they're not good but can be improved on.

You could try Dwarf Wars from Old Glory:
http://www.oldgloryminiatures.com/categories.asp?cat=43
I got a bunch of their elves and orcs back in the day. Decent variety of minis, and you buy them in blocks like you would with WHFB models.
Prices aren't the worst I've seen either.

You know the whole trial and error thing?

Ppl are less inclined to do so when GW product have raised to such an insane amount.

Mystery solved , its not the people are lazy, they are just scared of butchering up their $20 mini.