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pretre wrote: Why a vindicare? That seems like the most lackluster of assassins.
I agree, the idea of a super sniper seems cool, but the Vindicare never seems to have the damage output you would expect. Culuxus or Eversor seem like they would be a better choice.
Sometimes, you just gotta take something cause the model is freakin cool...
It seems most players load out their Dominions with melta.
Most of my opponents throw out heavy screens to protect their heavy hitters, so if I load out my Dominions with meltas their Scout moves get wasted since most of the time I can’t reach their big stuff with 12” melta range. Instead I load out my Dominions with pure Stormbolters (all my Superiors also carry Inferno Pistols) to clear out my opponent’s screens then push in with my BS Squads and Guard allies.
Just curious for those carrying pure melta Doms, how do you deal with heavy screens and still utilize your Scout moves?
davidgr33n wrote: It seems most players load out their Dominions with melta.
Most of my opponents throw out heavy screens to protect their heavy hitters, so if I load out my Dominions with meltas their Scout moves get wasted since most of the time I can’t reach their big stuff with 12” melta range. Instead I load out my Dominions with pure Stormbolters (all my Superiors also carry Inferno Pistols) to clear out my opponent’s screens then push in with my BS Squads and Guard allies.
Just curious for those carrying pure melta Doms, how do you deal with heavy screens and still utilize your Scout moves?
Loadout your doms with melta, shoot the screens with HB rets, repressors, SBBSS, etc, then shoot with the doms.
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I occasionally did Stormbolters on Dominions pre-FAQ. They'd Vanguard out to grab some cover opposite a busy objective around midfield and spend the whole game dropping 40 dice per turn once an Imagifier and a Canoness could make their way out. Once I did it with 2 minmaxed squads, Imagifier, and Canoness on a three level ruin and watched them turn whole squads of TSons terminators into Swiss cheese.
Post-FAQ, that's going to be a job for stormbolter BSS.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/25 04:08:33
BaconCatBug wrote: So is there anything I can do to improve this list? Because of the 0-3 rule everyone I know insists on using, I can't use 2 full SB squad of Dominions. Should I drop the 10 strong squad + Transport for 2 Heavy Bolter Retributor squads or 2 Seraphim Squads to flank Celestine, or 1 and 1?
Without room in the list for Imagifiers (the assassin would buy you two) and using a Canoness to buff the Retributers, I think the Seraphim will offer the most of those two options. Is 1750 the agreed upon points limit or is there an allied detachment somehwere?
1750 is the points limit my group of buddies use as a compromise between game length and army size. I could drop the assassin, it was there just because I could. I'll swap it out for Imagifiers.
pretre wrote:Why a vindicare? That seems like the most lackluster of assassins.
So SB Dominions are mad dakka, but footslogging BSS squads are a waste of space? The latter only have two Stormbolters less than the Doms and while they can't Vanguard, they can AoF. They can also be spammed in Battalions. 0-3 Imagifers is a bit of a drag, but hey ho.
BBAP wrote: So SB Dominions are mad dakka, but footslogging BSS squads are a waste of space? The latter only have two Stormbolters less than the Doms and while they can't Vanguard, they can AoF. They can also be spammed in Battalions. 0-3 Imagifers is a bit of a drag, but hey ho.
I like footslug SoB, its how ive been playing them since the repressor went up in points, i havent looked back. But i do have lots of HB's, Rets, Seraphim etc... might be a bit different than loads of BSS.
Amishprn86 wrote: Ever game ive seen the Vindicare in has failed to do much.
I'd rather just save the points for something else.
Used it a few times and did quite well killing characters - although the last one it was useless - missed twice and the third time I missed I re-rolled to hit and then rolled a 1 for the to wound roll....
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
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Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Yeah, or you get that sweet super rare 6 to wound and get excited for d6 damage but roll and reroll a 1 for the damage.
Vindicare is relegated to fluff lists imo. Ive tried running 2 in a list doubling up on the same target. Theyre just twice rhe points wasted.
MacPhail wrote: I occasionally did Stormbolters on Dominions pre-FAQ. They'd Vanguard out to grab some cover opposite a busy objective around midfield and spend the whole game dropping 40 dice per turn once an Imagifier and a Canoness could make their way out. Once I did it with 2 minmaxed squads, Imagifier, and Canoness on a three level ruin and watched them turn whole squads of TSons terminators into Swiss cheese.
Post-FAQ, that's going to be a job for stormbolter BSS.
There's a lot of mech lists in the STL area, and I ran into this same issue a lot. It's tough to get at back field russes, preds, and onagers. My best solution was two xiphons for the 8 lascannons. It filled the long range anti tank hole that sisters suffer. Post FAQ I'm investing more in SM to keep them on the field. This is irrelevant advice for a pure sisters list, but I don't think most armies can stay competitive with a pure list anymore. I got sick of struggling against exactly what you described and had to look for help outside our dex. If you do stick with melta doms in repressors, remember you can advance in your scout and first turn and still shoot the meltas. The repressor itself can't, though. But that gives you a 26-36 movement with an additional 12" of melta goodness. You can in theory cover all the way to their table edge. So going around the screen can sometimes be viable.
MacPhail wrote: I occasionally did Stormbolters on Dominions pre-FAQ. They'd Vanguard out to grab some cover opposite a busy objective around midfield and spend the whole game dropping 40 dice per turn once an Imagifier and a Canoness could make their way out. Once I did it with 2 minmaxed squads, Imagifier, and Canoness on a three level ruin and watched them turn whole squads of TSons terminators into Swiss cheese.
Post-FAQ, that's going to be a job for stormbolter BSS.
I would if I could, but all my Stormbolters have ended up as Sister Superiors for the increased firepower from one model...especially when my mechanized squads have become smaller.
BBAP wrote: So SB Dominions are mad dakka, but footslogging BSS squads are a waste of space? The latter only have two Stormbolters less than the Doms and while they can't Vanguard, they can AoF. They can also be spammed in Battalions. 0-3 Imagifers is a bit of a drag, but hey ho.
I like footslug SoB, its how ive been playing them since the repressor went up in points, i havent looked back. But i do have lots of HB's, Rets, Seraphim etc... might be a bit different than loads of BSS.
HB Rets are different because they have a different weapon profile than boltguns, but everything else is just boltguns and Meltaguns, innit? Seraphim and Dominions have extra movement over the BSS but they're putting out equivalent firepower - and since boltgun firepower sucks unless it's applied in bulk maybe more Sisters is preferable to better Sisters?
Without room in the list for Imagifiers (the assassin would buy you two) and using a Canoness to buff the Retributers, I think the Seraphim will offer the most of those two options. Is 1750 the agreed upon points limit or is there an allied detachment somehwere?
1750 is the points limit my group of buddies use as a compromise between game length and army size. I could drop the assassin, it was there just because I could. I'll swap it out for Imagifiers.
It should be an almost even swap... drop the full size Dominions, a Repressor, and the Assassin to add 2x Retributers with Heavy Bolters, 2x Imagifiers, and an extra Canoness as Warlord to hang back with them. That combo forms the core of almost every list I run. It frees your BoA Canoness to go take risks buffing your short range shooters and providing a melee threat other than Celestine. The volume of rerollable S5 shots at the beginning of your first turn should be enough to punch a hole in whatever is screening your opponent's shiniest toy, letting you run your meltas and heavy flamers up close on your first movement phase.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/25 15:37:00
dracpanzer wrote: I like it. Though I my forces will remain pure Sisters.
My pure sisters list was unaffected by the Rule of 3 at 2k.
I get it, my list was gutted by it. The index list and 8ed detachment builds allowed me to remove BSS from my list all together. I replaced them with SB Doms. I would bring one or two Melta Dom squads and a squad of Seraphim for AT. With Celestine, Rets, Imagifer and obligatory Canonesses I was able to be competitive every where I went.
Post FAQ I have conformed to the rule of three and in all of the eight games I have played against the same competitive armies my Sisters now feel very much like an Index army. Do they suck? No. Are they in need of a dex now that the codex armies can take advantage of how many dataslate options they have while Sisters can't. Yes.
The 3 Rule didn't fix 40k balance, it just shifted it to a place mono Sisters can't follow. It's too soon to know (and I don't pretend to know) where the Meta shift will end up. But stacking up BSS squads isn't going to take us far when 30 dark reapers is still perfectly legal.
dracpanzer wrote: I like it. Though I my forces will remain pure Sisters.
My pure sisters list was unaffected by the Rule of 3 at 2k.
I get it, my list was gutted by it. The index list and 8ed detachment builds allowed me to remove BSS from my list all together. I replaced them with SB Doms. I would bring one or two Melta Dom squads and a squad of Seraphim for AT. With Celestine, Rets, Imagifer and obligatory Canonesses I was able to be competitive every where I went.
Post FAQ I have conformed to the rule of three and in all of the eight games I have played against the same competitive armies my Sisters now feel very much like an Index army. Do they suck? No. Are they in need of a dex now that the codex armies can take advantage of how many dataslate options they have while Sisters can't. Yes.
The 3 Rule didn't fix 40k balance, it just shifted it to a place mono Sisters can't follow. It's too soon to know (and I don't pretend to know) where the Meta shift will end up. But stacking up BSS squads isn't going to take us far when 30 dark reapers is still perfectly legal.
BBAP wrote: So SB Dominions are mad dakka, but footslogging BSS squads are a waste of space? The latter only have two Stormbolters less than the Doms and while they can't Vanguard, they can AoF. They can also be spammed in Battalions. 0-3 Imagifers is a bit of a drag, but hey ho.
I like footslug SoB, its how ive been playing them since the repressor went up in points, i havent looked back. But i do have lots of HB's, Rets, Seraphim etc... might be a bit different than loads of BSS.
HB Rets are different because they have a different weapon profile than boltguns, but everything else is just boltguns and Meltaguns, innit? Seraphim and Dominions have extra movement over the BSS but they're putting out equivalent firepower - and since boltgun firepower sucks unless it's applied in bulk maybe more Sisters is preferable to better Sisters?
It's not that I'd never use an AoF to boost a BSS unit, but there's a long list of targets in front of them. When we could afford to run Stormbolter Doms pre-FAQ, I'd occasionally throw them an AoF weighted against only HB Rets shooting, Seraphim movement, and Celestine's melee. Looking at BSS, when there are fewer stormbolters and the unit is harder to position aggressively, they fall further down among other AoF uses, like putting wounds back on Celestine, standing up heavies and specials, etc. I feel like I have always run a lot of Imagifiers-- now the maximum-- and I hardly ever fire up an AoF for A BSS squad, regardless of loadout, unless I'm running them out for an objective.
dracpanzer wrote: I like it. Though I my forces will remain pure Sisters.
My pure sisters list was unaffected by the Rule of 3 at 2k.
I get it, my list was gutted by it. The index list and 8ed detachment builds allowed me to remove BSS from my list all together. I replaced them with SB Doms. I would bring one or two Melta Dom squads and a squad of Seraphim for AT. With Celestine, Rets, Imagifer and obligatory Canonesses I was able to be competitive every where I went.
Post FAQ I have conformed to the rule of three and in all of the eight games I have played against the same competitive armies my Sisters now feel very much like an Index army. Do they suck? No. Are they in need of a dex now that the codex armies can take advantage of how many dataslate options they have while Sisters can't. Yes.
The 3 Rule didn't fix 40k balance, it just shifted it to a place mono Sisters can't follow. It's too soon to know (and I don't pretend to know) where the Meta shift will end up. But stacking up BSS squads isn't going to take us far when 30 dark reapers is still perfectly legal.
Bingo. I get anti-soup rule, and while it hurt my feelings I support it. However, the rule of 3 rule doesn't make any sense as a blanket rule. A few problem spam units in other codices ruined it for the rest of us.
The main issue is that people are treating the Rule of 3 as applicable to EVERY game, when it's not, it's only for tournament games, not pick-up matched play games.
BaconCatBug wrote: The main issue is that people are treating the Rule of 3 as applicable to EVERY game, when it's not, it's only for tournament games, not pick-up matched play games.
This is true of every rule so people don't really cover it since every rule is up in the air for pick up games.
The only discussion that really relevant is one where we have common ground, hence discussing as if this is for every game.
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dracpanzer wrote: I get it, my list was gutted by it. The index list and 8ed detachment builds allowed me to remove BSS from my list all together. I replaced them with SB Doms. I would bring one or two Melta Dom squads and a squad of Seraphim for AT. With Celestine, Rets, Imagifer and obligatory Canonesses I was able to be competitive every where I went.
Post FAQ I have conformed to the rule of three and in all of the eight games I have played against the same competitive armies my Sisters now feel very much like an Index army. Do they suck? No. Are they in need of a dex now that the codex armies can take advantage of how many dataslate options they have while Sisters can't. Yes.
The 3 Rule didn't fix 40k balance, it just shifted it to a place mono Sisters can't follow. It's too soon to know (and I don't pretend to know) where the Meta shift will end up. But stacking up BSS squads isn't going to take us far when 30 dark reapers is still perfectly legal.
4+ Doms isn't the only way to run a successful list, it is just the way you (and a few others chose to do it). If you REALLY want to just take the good stuff, try out 3xDom, 3xSeraph, 3xRets and build from there. I'm thinking that you're going to get enough hard hitters that you'll be doing pretty well.
Don't kid yourself, we were an index army before the 3 rule and we played like one. Did we need a dex before rule of 3? Heck yeah. Do we still need one? Yep. Can we still hang and have pretty decent lists? Yep. Like I said, my list is the same to what it was before the faq and it is still pretty darn effective.
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deviantduck wrote: Bingo. I get anti-soup rule, and while it hurt my feelings I support it. However, the rule of 3 rule doesn't make any sense as a blanket rule. A few problem spam units in other codices ruined it for the rest of us.
It makes sense because it makes the whack-a-mole a little easier. Comp of any kind is a game of whack-a-mole. I.e. nerf the unit that is too good. The rule of three makes sense since almost every time a OP unit comes out, the reaction from the community is 'I'll take 12!!!!'. This way, they future proof against the next OP unit. Does it occasionally hit something else like Dom spam? Yes. Was 'I'll take 12 dominions!' boring list design and spam and probably not good for the army? IMO, yes.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/26 15:47:15
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pretre wrote: This is true of every rule so people don't really cover it since every rule is up in the air for pick up games.
This isn't true in the slightest. The rulebook has a bunch of rules for matched play. The 0-3 rule is not one of them.
No. You are missing the point.
It doesn't help for us to discuss pick up games and one-offs since when you're playing 1x1 with someone you can choose to accept or ignore whatever rules you want. What we do generally talk about is what the majority of events have accepted, since this is where you can't just say 'how about we don't use X rule' with your opponent. And in this case, beta rules are being accepted by the vast majority of US events that I have heard of.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/26 18:32:39
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Catching up a bit since I have ignored 40k for a week or two-- did I miss some FAQ regarding Sisters?
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
1. Match play tactical reserves (beta) rule change:
* prohibits units arriving from reserve on turn 1 from deploying anywhere but wholly inside your deployment zone
* requires you to have at least half your points AND half your power level on the table during deployment
* the restriction on where they can deploy doesn't apply to Genestealer Cult Ambush or to units that deploy before the first first battle round begins such as through Strike from the Shadows
2. Imperium cannot be used as a faction keyword for creating detachments for a battle-forged army.
Primarily, this means:
* Inquisitors can only be taken in an Inquisition Vanguard or Supreme Command detachment or through an Auxiliary detachment
* Assassins, Legion of the Damned, and Sisters of Silence can be taken in a Vanguard detachment without an HQ per errata in the FAQ but you receive no CP for doing so. Otherwise, they're all relegated to Auxiliary detachments.
3. for matched play organized events, you cannot bring more than two of any non-Troops, non-Dedicated transport data slates in your entire army. This increases by 1 data slate for every 1000 points thereafter
Translation there is you can't take more than three Canoness, three Imagifiers, thee Dominion squads and three Seraphim squads (each) in a 2000 point list.
However, because they're different data slates, a Space Marine player can theoretically bring three captains, three captains in Terminator Armor, three captains on Bikes, three Gravis Captains and a partridge in a pear tree as a legal army.
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deviantduck wrote: Bingo. I get anti-soup rule, and while it hurt my feelings I support it. However, the rule of 3 rule doesn't make any sense as a blanket rule. A few problem spam units in other codices ruined it for the rest of us.
It makes sense because it makes the whack-a-mole a little easier. Comp of any kind is a game of whack-a-mole. I.e. nerf the unit that is too good. The rule of three makes sense since almost every time a OP unit comes out, the reaction from the community is 'I'll take 12!!!!'. This way, they future proof against the next OP unit. Does it occasionally hit something else like Dom spam? Yes. Was 'I'll take 12 dominions!' boring list design and spam and probably not good for the army? IMO, yes.
That's horrible game design.Good designers with good play testers would nerf only what needs to be nerfed and get better data on what combinations are abusive through their play testers. The problem, as I see it, is that most of GW's play testing appears to be "beer and pretzels internal" testing where they end up making completely fluffy armies and don't try to actually break the armies like top tournament players do to find what's actually problematic. These players who are bringing lists like flyrant spam and Dark Reaper spam need to be GW's play testers!
That said, will things still get missed? Yes. We're human, and somewhere along the line someone will find a combination no one else thought of. That's when you fix that combination. But as I read somewhere recently, 30 dominions -- even if it's six squads of five -- are nowhere near as potent as 30 dark reapers (which is still legal). It's also not our fault that BSS do so little. Instead of nerfing Dominions, Seraphim and Retributors give us more reasons to bring BSS besides "Batalion/Brigade requirements". If a 50 Seraphim army turns out to be broken (it's not, btw), then fix it.
Balancing needs to be done like brewing ale. Small adjustments here and there. After all, it's always easier to adjust a little more in either direction than it is to go "well, we made these ten units worse trying to fix these four" and try to roll that back. I'd be fired from my job if I broke ten things that were working fine to fix four other things that weren't working at all!
As for the soup rule, it broke a few things that didn't need to be broken in the first place (assassins, SoS, LotD, Inquisitors) and the fix for three of the four is "eh". On top of it, it doesn't fix the fact that most of the soup was multiple detachments, each from different factions, rather than "Guilliman + Celestine in a Battalion". I mean, yeah, you can't do it as a Supreme Command detachment now but you can still bring Guilliman in a SH Auxiliary detachment for 3CP and Celestine in an Outrider detachment and still have 1400 points to spend on Sisters + whatever else you want to bring.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/04/27 02:58:12
Ah, I see. Well gak. Guess I'm not participating in tournies any time soon, since my BA list is now invalid (too many terminators, apparently they're considered broken now what?). And my Sisters list would be, too, if I still had the heart to play it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/27 15:34:27
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
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deviantduck wrote:
Bingo. I get anti-soup rule, and while it hurt my feelings I support it. However, the rule of 3 rule doesn't make any sense as a blanket rule. A few problem spam units in other codices ruined it for the rest of us.
It makes sense because it makes the whack-a-mole a little easier. Comp of any kind is a game of whack-a-mole. I.e. nerf the unit that is too good. The rule of three makes sense since almost every time a OP unit comes out, the reaction from the community is 'I'll take 12!!!!'. This way, they future proof against the next OP unit. Does it occasionally hit something else like Dom spam? Yes. Was 'I'll take 12 dominions!' boring list design and spam and probably not good for the army? IMO, yes.
That's horrible game design.Good designers with good play testers would nerf only what needs to be nerfed and get better data on what combinations are abusive through their play testers. The problem, as I see it, is that most of GW's play testing appears to be "beer and pretzels internal" testing where they end up making completely fluffy armies and don't try to actually break the armies like top tournament players do to find what's actually problematic. These players who are bringing lists like flyrant spam and Dark Reaper spam need to be GW's play testers!
40k just takes too long to be a really competitive game and collect the data that you want. The playtesting reflects that. You literally can't get the thousands of playthroughs necessary to balance/break everything when deployment lasts an hour and every map is different. 40k has hundreds of pages of rules and millions of unit interactions to take into account (and no computer control to handle all those interactions perfectly). Honestly, the fact that GW is even willing to try (after not doing so for so long) is a blessing. Besides... the fact that they are even at the large conventions (gathering data) is a huge change for the better.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/04/27 16:44:56
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Arguing over the facts is the lowest form of debate.
MacPhail wrote:It's not that I'd never use an AoF to boost a BSS unit, but there's a long list of targets in front of them. When we could afford to run Stormbolter Doms pre-FAQ, I'd occasionally throw them an AoF weighted against only HB Rets shooting, Seraphim movement, and Celestine's melee. Looking at BSS, when there are fewer stormbolters and the unit is harder to position aggressively, they fall further down among other AoF uses, like putting wounds back on Celestine, standing up heavies and specials, etc. I feel like I have always run a lot of Imagifiers-- now the maximum-- and I hardly ever fire up an AoF for A BSS squad, regardless of loadout, unless I'm running them out for an objective.
I get what you're saying, but my point is that BSS shooting isn't much less deadly than Dominion shooting, especially since the BSS are less likely to outpace the Canonesses, and consequently I'm not sure all the post-FAQ pessimism is warranted. Dominions only have 2 more Stormbolters than a BSS squad gets access to, and at the end of the day you can still take 3 units of Doms, so if you build to maximise your AoFs via CP (Martyrdoms) and Imagifers then use those to get your Battle Sisters moving I still think it's possible to push a lot of Stormbolters into commanding central positions early in the game. It's going to run differently than it would with max Dominions - your Scout moves are going to be made with a view to bringing the Dominions to bear on turn two or three, in support of the advancing BSSes, rather than turn one - but the option is still there.
The fact you're only bringing your full firepower to bear on turn 2 or 3 is problematic I suppose, especially in time-sensitive situations. That kind of thing allows people to slow-play you out of contention, but I don't really see how mono-Sisters get around that given how fragile they are and the fact they have no way to push damage past saving throws.
The AoFs via Martyrdom is an angle I haven't considered and really haven't tried in play... might change a few things. And your right, the differences in damage output are minor. I have three Stormbolter BSS units slated to take the field tomorrow with my Witchhunters list, and I'll see how aggressively I can play them into optimal range.
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