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Made in gb
Long-Range Black Templar Land Speeder Pilot







Ok so it's been a while since I've looked but I was sure that more armageddon class ships were produced than hust the Apocalypse class battleship and Falchion escorts, am I right and if so where did they go? (or am I just losing it?)
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

They are published in the Armada book. Between that and the BBB you have everything you need.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in gb
Long-Range Black Templar Land Speeder Pilot







Sorry I don't think I made my question very clear, I know that there are rules for other armageddon fleet ships but I wanted to know if they ever got models produced?
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

Yes they did, IMHO the only one worth looking at is the Apocalypse battleship.



Not only does it look good but it works too, and the rule by which you can boost the range but drain the engines by doing so is a workable trade off which makes the vessel interesting.

The light cruisers are fugly and largely redundant, in order to make a form of cruiser that took only one pallet a side they made a wafer thin ship with a huge plate for a pallet with an eagle motif behind. This looks stupid as the ship becomes noticably more massive if it had the lances, about tripled its width IIRC. Also the idea of having a weapons mount jammed full of shooty goodness, then a thin decorative plate immediately aft it just didn't work, it also looked stupid.

However whether it looks good is eye of the beholder and all that so let me tell you about what they can do.

The three ships of the class are slower than a Dauntless, moving at 20cm they are no faster, though admittedly more agile than standard cruisers, this is a problem, while they have one more turret they also cost 10pts more base than the Dauntless. So far a fair enough trade of 5cm speed and 10pts for a turret. I can see that turret being useful. However Dauntless are fast, Dauntless are very good at covering the weakpoint of an Imperial line, massed frontal firepower. They are designed to fire on the attack run, not turn broadside. The Endeavour class however is a broadside line fighter, sure that is more survivable than a prow on light cruiser but its no different from what Lunars do, and at a cost of three for two Lunars do it better.

The default is the Endeavour class it has a dribble of prow firepower, two short range wide arc batteries and two torpedos. Two torpedoes is not going to frighten anyone, unless they are boarding trops, which they cannot get or can conceivably be massed into attack swarms which is not feasible either. The only upside is that the wide arcs mean you can have a side firing battery 8, but for 120pts that is not impressive. Give me back my three lances.

Now the Endurance, the lance pallet variant is a better ship. Having an array of lance broadsides on a small package can be useful indeed, but for every Endurance you take you must take at least one Endeavour, so its back to Lunars again.

The third option the Defiant has attack craft pay pallets, this costs 130pts and would be worthwhile even though it loses the torpedoes into the bargain, but its no faster than any other carrier, so it is no better suited as support for an escort flottilla than a Dictator, the Dictator is also a very good design, being one of the only ships capable of challenging in its own weight class alone as the combination of torpedoes and bombers bypasses shields and overloads defences. Sorry Dictator every time.

I might have given the ships a chance if they were less fugly, but the combination of fugly and worthless robs them of any value. GW was selling them, but dont anymore and Forgeworld has not taken them up.

The AdMech fleet did a much better job of designing up one pallet light cruisers:



You could buy some of those for Endeavour class, file off the Mechanicus symbols and use them as is, but for the same money you could buy plastic cruiser pairs or a Dauntless for less. Both cut out the nonsense.

One bastard stepchild of the Armagedon fleet designs remains, the Falchion escort:



You can buy them from GW if you like, but Swords and Cobras are the same price. Note I did notice that Cobras are now sold in threes not fours. Falchions are fugly little ships, the side profile is all you see because they are ridiculously flat when compared to other Imperial escorts, it looks to me the model was made from a one up master made of plasticard with as bit of green stuff on each side.

Well in case you still like them lets look at what they do. They cost 35pts and have the same defensive profile as a standard Imperial frigate, except they have one turret rather than two, thus so far they are just flat Swords excepting the increased vulnerability to ordnance, which is not good. Now they have three batteries for the Swords four and a torpedo. Now a torpedo is worth more thn a battery point but not here it is not.
Let us ignore the turret for the moment, if it was just the exchange of the torpedo for the firepower battery I would still say no. You have not enough firepower to be worth thinking about reload ordnance, even en-masse Falchions will not shoot out anything worth bothering installing the launch tubes for. Swords on the other hand are focused, and the extra point of firepower mounts up. Sorry buy Swords and Cobras seperately, both are good ships, avoid the hybrid.


Finally we come to the Grand Cruisers, these appered before Armageddon list and while in the list are not proper armageddon fleet ships. Still I will describe thme for you. By and large they are not bad being points efficient powerhouses, imperials get three classes Chaos get three, this includes the Vengeance class which they both share. Of the three available to you the Vengeance itself is the best, as it has a long range firepower which is much needed. The Avenger has 16 firepower but only 30 range, this is a poor trade off alowing for the lack of an armoured prow and torpedoes. The Exorcist is a good challenger to the Dictator, but price and overall firepower is largely comperable and the Dictator profits massively from the inclusion of the armoured prow and both torpedo and attack craft ordnance.



As to whether you like ther looks, that is up to you, but it will cost as much to buy as an imperial battleship, and any of the three battleships available will be a better model and a better ship.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/06/19 15:05:45


n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

Warms my heart to see such thorough coverage of BFG!

   
Made in us
Hardened Veteran Guardsman





Virginia Beach, VA

I have days where the Apocalypse's prow looks sweet, and days where it looks fugly. Today is a sweet day though. I bet it wouldn't be terribly difficult to magnetize an Apoc so you could swap it out with a Retribution, just to mix it up a bit in a friendly game.

The Vengeance is pretty much hideous, IMO - it's like the hunchback who's been friends with the coolest frat brother since they were youngsters, and is alowed to play tag-a-long. But that could also just be the paintjob on it.

Falchions are just silly and look like interstellar salmon.
   
Made in gb
Long-Range Black Templar Land Speeder Pilot







THanks for the rundown, great help, I will definatly be getting myself an apocalypse, I was mainly asking about the light cruisers (which are now gone from the site sadly it would seem) as I really like the sketches in the armarda book. One more question, did the Oberon ever get made? I'm not sure I'd ever use one as they seem spread too thin for my tastes but again, I like the model.
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

Tanks for the rundown, great help, I will definatly be getting myself an apocalypse, I was mainly asking about the light cruisers (which are now gone from the site mercifully it would seem) as I really like the sketches in the armada book.

Fixed.


Sirius42 wrote:
One more question, did the Oberon ever get made? I'm not sure I'd ever use one as they seem spread too thin for my tastes but again, I like the model.


No need, its an Emperor class with the centre launch bay pallets replaced with lance bays. If you want to build one please magnetise the centre pallets. This way once you realise the Oberon is fugly, and its a bad design to boot, you can still use the model.


slice of toast wrote:I have days where the Apocalypse's prow looks sweet, and days where it looks fugly. Today is a sweet day though. I bet it wouldn't be terribly difficult to magnetize an Apoc so you could swap it out with a Retribution, just to mix it up a bit in a friendly game.


i really understand you there. The problwem withnthe Apocalypse and Emperior is that the prow antenna/barrels are molded into the kit along the modl line an a curved section, so there is a lot of backfill. The answer is to cut away file down and add new antenna onto the Emepror, and I suppose do something similar to the apocalypse.
I dont own the Apocalypse so I dont speak from experience here, but remodelling the Emperors prow was a pain, but worthwhile.


slice of toast wrote:
The Vengeance is pretty much hideous, IMO - it's like the hunchback who's been friends with the coolest frat brother since they were youngsters, and is alowed to play tag-a-long. But that could also just be the paintjob on it.


It all stems from the fallacy backed up by bad background decisions that Imperial designs are predated by Chaos designs. This is blatantly untrue because many of the 'Imperial' design ships are older. Despoilers were build in the 36th millenium. The Divine Right, Emperor class battleship and Ravensburgs flagship of the Gothic fleet was recommissioned around the same time, after being lost in a space hulk for over ten millienia. Thus some 'chaos' designs are from Imperial era designers, while some 'Imperial' ship designs are pre Imperial, possibly dating from the Dark Age of Technology.

thus I have a second more palusible explanstion. the two design doctrines for human fleets are seperate and both survived into the imperial era. however those deemed 'Imperial' designs had a crucial design advantage, they better resisted warp influence, albeit at the cost in some speed and fire control technologies. perhaps the holy catchedral architecture better protected faith and warded away warp influence. It would account for how nearly all ships of one design doctrine, but very few of the other defect to the service of the Dark Gods. In time any 'chaos' pattern warship will expose its crew to corruption if it spends enough time in the Warp. Some like ther Hades class Warmaker were Imperial owned right until the Gothic war, andc suddenly turned. yet no Lunars are shown to have defected.

Now the Vengeance class looks to me to be an attempt to marry the two design doctrines and build a better fleet, ignorant scribes have in hindsight labelled it an evolutionary link, but this cannot be true due to the pre-existance of 'Imperial' pattern design hulls. such miunderstandings are acceptable as the truth is likely classified.
Because the Vengeance class are a hybrid, they offer some of the protection of the holy catherdral hull configuration, but not entirely. Some do fall to corruption, but at a low rate than those designs deemed 'chaotic'.

looked at in those terms the designs and what happened to them make sense.


slice of toast wrote:
Falchions are just silly and look like interstellar salmon.


Appaling models, they are even too narrow to properly fit on a plastic stand pole. evidently these were a knock together for a sculptor given limited time to work on BFg befvore going back to bigger things. itsc a hand me down pierce between the next army book or codex relase schedule.

i still hope they will relaunch BFG and do plastic escort sprues.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/06/19 20:05:34


n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in gb
Long-Range Black Templar Land Speeder Pilot







Well having not seen the armageddon fleet light cruisers in the flesh for myself i'l just have to defer to your wisdom and assume that they did not translate the cool sketch into a cool mini. Just ordered an apocalypse class and some nova frigates for my marines (and some plastic imperial cruisers). Man I missed this game.
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

You got this for two fleets yes, or are you making an Armageddon pattern fleet list?

If you are you can use all SM vessels but cannot use the Dauntless, Dominator, Overlord or Retribution class vessels and can only use Swords and Cobras as part of an SM contingent.

Bastion fleets are more open but with the slightly different list. Apocalypse and Armageddon are included and the flat cruisers too, but you miss out the Falchion (no loss) and the Dominator (more concerning). I wonder if that is a typographical omission as Battlefleet Gothic itself is a Bastion fleet.

Choose your list carefully.

As for purchases, BFG comes on eBay often enough, just buy the fleet you find and run with it. its normally quite cheap.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in gb
Long-Range Black Templar Land Speeder Pilot







Yeah well I have over 3000 points of chaos for a fleet, 1500pts of eldar (i think) and a full marine fleet (3 barges 10 strike cruisers plus escorts hence the Novas), all of which are from when I played 4 years ago.. the Apocalypse is the beginnings of an Imperial fleet, I figured I'm re-starting gothic, why not bring along a new fleet.
   
 
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