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If you don't want the outcome of the book ruined for you leave this thread.

Sweet, my favorite fluff so far has been DA fluff.

Do you know if it talks about Luther and the Fallen angels? Did they turn to chaos or is it like the fluff in "Angels of Darkness" that said they wanted to try and stop the warmaster?

Thanks for sharing
Need to get the book myself now.

EzeKK,

This book was filled with all the awesome that the previous crapfest missed out on.

What I absolutely loved is that Lion's character flaw is plausible without detracting from his intellect or strategic mastery.

This is a great read, if you like Horus Heresy novels, this one won't leave you disappointed.

And there is an AWESOME teaser/foreshadowing/twist at the end.

So what are the Watchers in the Dark for? So Cypher is evil?

Cypher is not evil - he's goodly challenged.

H.B.M.C. wrote:So what are the Watchers in the Dark for? So Cypher is evil?

I'm waiting for these Watcher things to have some sort of damn point in the series, other than pointing at Horus and going 'OHHHHH gak, yeah, it's on now! You Humans really screwed it up!'. I mean, where were they when the Eldar inadvertently created a brand new Chaos God? From their description they seem like the Old Ones that created Orks and devolved into the Snotling race, but there just hasn't been enough of a point to them yet to be certain. They're almost as bad as the Jedi Council of Mystical Uselessness in Legion.

Cypher isn't evil. He's got more of the mindset of a Radical Inquisitor, where the ends justify the means, even if the means involve a lot of people dying.

And those means happen to be turning his back on the Emperor and the Primarch, but hey he's just misunderstood With his manipulations and the tone with which he's written in this book Cypher is evil.

Edit I had typed out a long explination of the watchers in the dark but lost it. Essentially they work to shield the humans of caliban from being corrupted by an extremely powerful warp entity that resides in the heart of the planet. Pages 257-260 explain or at least infer a great deal.

So when the planet explodes, does that take care of the beast?

I looooove the Heresy line of books, what's the title of the book again?

Fallen Angels, by Mike Lee.

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For those who have read the book, what do you think will happen with brother Titus? Did Jonson send him off with the machines or was he recovered somehow before that happened?

Everyone knows this is spoiler thread so....

I think the OP hit it pretty well on in that Lion'el is the worst judge in character ever. He used Luthor as his sounding board for all things involving people and when he's without him he just sucks the nut. He never considers that Perturbo might not be on his side. But he is brilliant as is shown by he can take a single piece of information (the building of the seige engines) he read years ago and turn it into a plan where 200 Dark Angels could stop the heresy. He just didn't count on there being anymore traitors. And his absolute hatred of traitors seems to be genuine. Bear in mind that he lacks certain social skills so I don't see him being that great of a liar.

I feel like the Astelan is the same in both novels. He is a master veteran of the crusade before Lion'el was found and seems a little crazy overall. I could see him pulling the trigger on the fleet on "accident" and then his meglomania getting the better of him over the next 10k years.

I got the impression that he was saved somehow when Caliban blew up and was transported 10K into the future. He hadn't been around that long when he took over that planet he was found on.

Do you think his confession to the chaplain was part delusional brought about by stress and being on his own for so long?

Astelan was a chapter master at the time of the book, and was taking orders directly from Luther, I would say that fits the seasoned vet resume pretty well Any traitor Angel that did not die in the conflict was transported across time and space by the forces of the Chaos gods according to fluff, so it's not out of sync with how Thorpe descibes it. Unless there's a third book to wrap up the whole battle of Caliban there will still be the question whether he was lying or not. Notice to GW writers: If you do write another book and flip flop on the Lion's Loyalties (I was so relieved to put those rumors of heresy to rest in this book) I will hunt you down like the traitor dogs you are.

I think there will be another book as the story is not finished. I was told recently that the HH books are divided up into story arcs and each arc has its own colour, the coloured strip at the top of the spine. I wonder if BL even knows how many HH books there will be, the books so far have really only covered the beginning of the heresy.

Is Luther corrupted by chaos or not?

Just cut and pasted from a previous post that was "spoilered out"

Luther is pretty much as previous fluff describes him. He's still in turmoil with his feelings. He loves the Lion like a son, but he is hurt that Johnson exiled him and that he's even more so in the shadow of his adotpted son. Cypher plays on this and stokes those internal fires. Eventually Luther finds the books from the Library of the Knights of Lupus and vanishes for a while leaving Cypher in charge. Zahariel, who's remianed loyal to Johnson but is pained not unlike Luther, is trying to quell a rebellion that's risen up on Caliban. In his efforts he discovers the purpose of the Watchers in the Dark and why they let the great beasts survive, a plot to summon great warp monstrosities to Caliban, and the true identity of Cypher. By the time he finds Luther, the second in command looks to have been ravaged by time or sickness, and he can use powerful warp abilities, although at the time of the book it seems that he has to use them from books almost like a wizard and his spellbook. The only Fallen Angels complicit in the betrayal (that are named in the book anyways) are Luther, Cypher, and Astelan, who can be remembered as being the captured Fallen Angel in the novel Angels of Darkness by Gav Thorpe who ordered the planetary defenses to open fire on the Lion's forces when they returned to Caliban. There are four training cycles worth of Dark Angels Marines on Caliban at the time of the book, but at least during the time frame covered none of them know anything other than they're helping put down a rebellion before being sent out to join the Great Crusade. Somehow I doubt they'll be sent out though. Zahariel was being held in the Tower of Angels at the end of the book and was being manipulated, but seemed to be resisting, by Luther. What comes of him or how the story prgresses from there to when Johnson returns will have to be laid out in further books or fluff.

While he hasn't knelt on bent knee and pledged his immortal soul to the chaos gods he's dabbling in warp powers, even getting so powerful as to bring Zahariel back to life. He's started down a path that, given his already illustrated weaknesses in these past two books, I don't think he's strong enough to control or resist.

I think he's on that road for sure, his story is like a lesser version of Horus's. He feels betrayed, abandoned and is being manipulated by a shadowy figure. With Horus it was Erebus and with Luther it was Cypher.

For me it took a long time to get to the crusade, I hope there will be another book.

Fallen Angels out soon just seen it in WD.

Fallen Angels has been out for a bit, I bought it last week. Haven't read much yet, only the first chapter which seems to contradict everything else that has been written about the DA thus far.

has it got the same writer as the last DA book?

Nope its written by Mike Lee, who i've been told is almost as bad a Goto when it comes to books. People I talked to are confused as to why he even gets to write HH books, they thought the HH was supposed to bet BL's A list authors...

Thats a shame, at least keep the same guy who possably had plans with the next DA book

Fallen Angels was ace, I really like how it pretty much eliminated, for me, any doubts of The Lion being a traitor, which you kinda get hinted at in Gav Thorpes 'Angels of Darkness'.

the novel is key to understanding The Lions psychology towards the whole situation...it is also a turning point in something the Astelan picks on in 'Angels of Darkness'.

That ending in 'Fallen Angels' is fantastic, because it really does make you think, ok, Lion, you are a damn cool dude, but you will always take an opportunity to blow your own trumpet...and in doing so, well, that can be one of your flaws.

Mike Lee did a great job.

I wanna write the next DA HH novel


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H.B.M.C. wrote:So what are the Watchers in the Dark for? So Cypher is evil?

Cypher is a dude...he is working with what he has...and not alot of people know what persuasion he's of...then again with the impending doom of the bombing of caliban to come...he could quite easily succumb to chaos ways...but for now, and I think forever he is on a quest to reinvigorate the legendary DA's reputation.

I love the DA's beccause they are just bloody excellent...I ploughed thru this book in 3 days because I was so excited about the Legion I've been with since 1990

So what does everyone make of the Lion?


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cadbren wrote:I think there will be another book as the story is not finished. I was told recently that the HH books are divided up into story arcs and each arc has its own colour, the coloured strip at the top of the spine. I wonder if BL even knows how many HH books there will be, the books so far have really only covered the beginning of the heresy.

Is Luther corrupted by chaos or not?

I think Luther is so weak of will after being rejected by the Lion, that he believes, as horus did, that he could control chaos. Sadly he has become a deluded fool, that ccan only be a servant of the Primordial Annihilator

So yes, I think Luther does become corrupted because it's kind of his only challenging endeavour whilst back on Caliban...through thinking he has a handle on Ouborous (a deamon of Khorne) he slips...tho i'm not sure his will becomes a servant straight away...but I think the hints lie in the ending of the book where Zahariel wakes up after pretty much being dead...and also he wakes up 8months to the day after the events took place...as is said in the novel Zahariel knows in some way the number 8 seems significant but can't remember why...well we all know why don't we, the number 8 is the sacred number assigned to anything Khorne.

Luthers flaw is that he reverts to putting his efforts into a sorely misunderstood personal conquest and not the greater picture, as the Lion has dedicated himself to when his father turned up on caliban.
As a result I do believe Luther becomes corrupted not only by his 'needs' and 'wants' for himself but also eventually by the forces of Chaos that have lurked underneath Caliban since the planet was formed.

I can imagine how he must feel...I mean having some age-old daemon answer as mere a question as 'What is your name?' must have made him nearly gak in his breeches with excitement, I imagine he felt abit like Jade Goody did when she left the Big Brother house...

Luther: 'Now the Daemon has aknowledged me, the world is my oyster' .......... oh dear ............ he deserves a proper bitch slap

Jade Goody: 'Now the media has noticed me, the world is my dog'

when are you going to write your book?

When are you going to write your book?