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Made in cn
Furious Raptor






Shanghai, China

After getting back into the hobby since a mult-year sabatical I have re-discovered why I stopped playing dice based games in the first place.

I'm a low rolla.... .
(clackitty clack, fail)

Example from last night:

20 + Guardsmen shooting at 5x terminators.

My opponents lasguns causes me to roll 4 x Armor Saves.........I roll 3 x 1s, and a 5

To name one of hundreds of similar stories, 9 x assault marines dying against 15 Gretchin, 6 penetrating hits only resulting in "Crew Shaken" the list just goes on and on

Though I lack the homework to show you guys video or other statistical proof of just how many times I roll between 1-3, I can describe the behaviors that have developed to cope.

1. -- Never EVER field plasma weapons (or any weapon with "gets hot")
Typically I get 1 shot out of the model before they self immolate

2. -- Flamers, flamers, flamers
The less dice I have to roll 3+ the better

3. -- Ablative armor instead of Ceramite Armor
I have to max out squad sizes (Tactical, Assault, Scout, Etc) in order to get them to survive 1 round of shooting.

4. -- Leadership tests....I just assume all of my guys are fearless.
I have failed 2 leadership tests, in the last 7 games.

5. -- Hail the Librarian, Hail the Psychic Attack!!
As I never fail psychic tests, I tend to field 2-3 librarians in a list....

6. -- If its going into HTH, lead it with a chaplain.
Otherwise its 100pts worth of horrible, horrible failure

Now as much fun as a pitty party sounds, I'm more interested in the gameplay applications of this effect.

If a player consistantly rolls low scores (3 and below) on the majority of his rolls what possible ways can you benefit in terms of using certain units or armies?

I have already found that Librarians (indeed all psychic units) are positively effected by my rolling habits. And that my units will almost never fall back, or become pinned.

So what can I do with this for Vanilla Space Marines?
What other armies would benefit most from Low Rolling?


.. Black Forest .. Red Sea .. 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch






Odenton, MD

I stopped playing my SM because I can not make a roll, I instead play list with a ton of cheap and expendable units, like DE and orks.


The worst rolling I ever had was failing to kill 1 necron warrior (all I needed for a phase out) with a 5 man squad of assault terminators. Single handedly loosing me the game...
   
Made in us
Elite Tyranid Warrior





Man your luck....suuuuuucccccckkkkkksssss!!!!

I have never had anything like that happen to me yet. I base all my amries on the numbers (I'm a math major) and it always has always come out to be able the right statistics. But the stuff that happens to you.... it just defies logic and statistics like no other.

Better luck next time.?.?.?

http://tyranidsbackwardsandforwards.blogspot.com/ Got a Nid ?'s get them answered there!

amhhs wrote:Hey Drummer,
you seem to be the most knowledgeable Nid player on Dakka.

 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Feasting on the souls of unworthy opponents

I tend to not believe in "dice luck." If you subscribe to the theory, buy a second block of dice.

If you feel like you're still being cursed, then start using things with high ballistic skill and high strength where lower rolling will succeed, or use lots of blast templates.

   
Made in us
Hardened Veteran Guardsman



Denton Tx

Remember that gw dice roll more ones!

 
   
Made in us
Doc Brown






I remember one guy had us play with the opposite rule. So instead of a 2+ armor save, you need a 5-, always failing on a 6. It actually was funny, though the game took 30 minutes more than it should've. I literally had the most saves of my life that game and the best dice luck ever.

"From the fires of Betrayal unto the blood of revenge we bring the name of Lorgar, the Bearer of the Word, the favored Son of Chaos, all praise be given to him. From those that would not heed we offer praise to those who do, that they might turn their gaze our way and gift us with the Boon of Pain, to turn the Galaxy red with the blood, and feed the hunger of the Gods."

-Excerpt from the Three Hundred and Forty-First

Book of Epistles of Lorgar

Cheese Elemental wrote:That made me think... what's a good pick-up line in the Imperium?

"Hey baby, my plasma cannon's running hot and I need to purge you in the name of the Emperor tonight."
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





dead account

What size dice are you using? Is it the tiny GW dice or similar sized dice? I use those and I think those might be the problem. When I start playing again I might consider purchasing somewhat bigger dice. I think you get a bitter 'shake' out of them with more mass.

You remind me of my buddy that I play Star Wars Miniatures with. We call him 'Single Digit Nik' because with a d20 that's all he seems to roll. Aside from single digits he also makes rolls that 'don't matter' (ex: criticals on droids)
   
Made in us
Oozing Plague Marine Terminator







Heart of the Cards!

My buddy has this problem with his larger dice. My GW dice are always on fire, and when ever he simply uses my dice, his bad luck goes away. Try picking up a pack of regular GW dice, eh?

   
Made in ca
Angered Reaver Arena Champion






This is the result of some direct factors such as the dice themselves and/or how you roll them, not some nebulous "luck" factor. What you are experiencing is likely confirmation bias (of your belief that you are a Low Roller).

If you want to ease the effect of statistical abnormalities then you need to increase the number of dice being rolled in any given situation.

More models = less impact on each roll.

If you believe yourself to be a "Low Roller" simply play an army that rolls lots of dice at once. Nids and Orks are good suggestions.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/06/29 06:18:52


Sangfroid Marines 5000 pts
Wych Cult 2000
Tau 2000 
   
Made in us
Monstrous Master Moulder




Sacramento, CA

If you really do consistently roll low you should play the Guard. They can rely heavily on Leadership tests and blast and ordnance weapons, both of which want low rolls on 2d6. The men also don't pay for good armor saves that they're going to fail anyway.

Agitator noster fulminis percussus est 
   
Made in us
Privateer





The paint dungeon, Arizona

I can totally relate to bad dice. I cant tell you how many 'Best Army' / Worst Dice awards Ive won over the years.

Ive had my own obliterators kill themselves with rapid fire TL plasma guns. 2 in a single round even. thats 6 ones....in a row.


And new dice, free dice, stolen dice, borrowed dice....doesnt matter. Dang little cubes must envy my curves or somethin
   
Made in fi
Sneaky Striking Scorpion






Finland

Agreed,

Not only that I keep on rolling 1-2s all the time, but every time i play 2on2s my team mate seems to be doing it also.

I might go and find some new dice for the next game, and not letting anyone else touch them




 
   
Made in au
Morphing Obliterator





Australia

Remove the curse factor by a) using a cup to shake the dice in, or b) go fancy and create a dice roller like...http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/243117.page!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/06/29 12:42:03


"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity; and it was not meant that we should voyage far." The Call of Cthulhu - H. P. Lovecraft

Painting Blog - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/244402.page - leave a comment! 
   
Made in gb
Furious Fire Dragon





*cough*

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/That%27s_How_I_Roll_-_A_Scientific_Analysis_of_Dice

P.M. me for rational Eldar Advice, both on list construction or Tactics.

Also feel free to query me about rules from the Eldar and Space Marine codices, as well as the General Rule book.

Mech Eldar army of the Craftworld Din Cassian currently at 17-6-7.

The Cat in my Avatar is my Cat. He's called Taz and he's just over ten months old. 
   
Made in gb
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver






Leicester, UK

An article on dice, mainly based on RPGs, but still relevant for wargaming:

http://maddwarf.co.uk/Articles/dice.htm

I refuse to enter a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. 
   
Made in us
Privateer





The paint dungeon, Arizona



Yeah, I got to play Yade (the article author) at a Champions of Chaos tourney a few years ago. Nice guy, and he had no problems telling people that statistics of why their rounded dice sucked. I guess when you have a buncha interns rolling dice and recording the rolls to gather real data, theres an actual and noticeable pattern. He told me all about it when my dirty traitor dice let his Ravenwing ride all over my Nightlords- 4th ed assault cannons out of a 3rd edition codex cost was sick- and his uber square dice didnt like me lol

Its a good article though, the guy that wrote it is legit and a good gamer. I havent got to test his data though, since that was the last tourney I played in before droppin out of 40k for a while (that damn WoW....)
   
Made in jp
Emboldened Warlock







Mistress of minis wrote:


Yeah, I got to play Yade (the article author) at a Champions of Chaos tourney a few years ago. Nice guy, and he had no problems telling people that statistics of why their rounded dice sucked. I guess when you have a buncha interns rolling dice and recording the rolls to gather real data, theres an actual and noticeable pattern. He told me all about it when my dirty traitor dice let his Ravenwing ride all over my Nightlords- 4th ed assault cannons out of a 3rd edition codex cost was sick- and his uber square dice didnt like me lol

Its a good article though, the guy that wrote it is legit and a good gamer. I havent got to test his data though, since that was the last tourney I played in before droppin out of 40k for a while (that damn WoW....)


Now that you've known that your GW dice are dirty, I'm interested in knowing what you've done. I've been looking for decent/good dice for a while now, but have yet to find one that are not straight Casino dice.

I'd appreciate it if anyone could suggest a good alternative to GW's dirty dice.

What 'bout my star?~* 
   
Made in cn
Blackclad Wayfarer





From England. Living in Shanghai

As a witness (on several occasions) to shotgunfacelifts failures I can honestly say that I'm now a firm believer in "luck of the dice". I don't think I have ever watched a player roll so many ones...consistantly. Which dice he rolls doesn't really matter. If its in his hand chances are he is going to roll a handful of 1's.

On topic I guess you could buy your dice from other sources (as many as possible) and try that. I also know that you have started an ork list (thankyou dakka) so maybe go for the 'uge mob so as to minimize losses from your crap rolling.

Looking for games in Shanghai? Send a PM 
   
Made in au
Fresh-Faced New User




Australia

Use a cup, give it a good shake
   
Made in gb
Morphing Obliterator





Barring any weighted dice discussions there are changes you can make to your army to lessen the impact of bad rolling.

Guard are probably the best to cope with bad rolls (as has been said previously) because they can rely more on blast markers and can put out a very high number of shots.

If you're playing space marines then you will want to avoid units that have high pts/model cost, like terminators and sternguard.

Templates and blast markers help again so landspeeders with flamers and LRRs will help. Getting rerolls on any single shot weapons will help a lot, so consider getting vulkan so all of your melta weapons can reroll misses. Try to avoid single shot weapons in favour of higher rate of fire weapons, since there will be less impact if you get a few bad rolls, unless you can get them with rerolls.

taking up the mission
Polonius wrote:Well, seeing as I literally will die if I ever lose a game of 40k, I find your approach almost heretical. If we were to play each other in a tournament, not only would I table you, I would murder you, your family, every woman you ever loved and burn down your house. I mean, what's the point in winning if you allow people that don't take the game seriously to live?
 
   
Made in cn
Furious Raptor






Shanghai, China

Thanks for the responses all, got some things to test out now.

Raxmei wrote:If you really do consistently roll low you should play the Guard. They can rely heavily on Leadership tests and blast and ordnance weapons, both of which want low rolls on 2d6. The men also don't pay for good armor saves that they're going to fail anyway.


Great advice, my buddies Guard army was what gave me the idea that some armies/units would be more able to cope with the this effect (or confirmation bias)
I'm actually in the process of building a horde Ork army to find out if it works.

Regwon wrote:Barring any weighted dice discussions there are changes you can make to your army to lessen the impact of bad rolling.

Guard are probably the best to cope with bad rolls (as has been said previously) because they can rely more on blast markers and can put out a very high number of shots.

If you're playing space marines then you will want to avoid units that have high pts/model cost, like terminators and sternguard.

Templates and blast markers help again so landspeeders with flamers and LRRs will help. Getting rerolls on any single shot weapons will help a lot, so consider getting vulkan so all of your melta weapons can reroll misses. Try to avoid single shot weapons in favour of higher rate of fire weapons, since there will be less impact if you get a few bad rolls, unless you can get them with rerolls.


Cheers Regwon, that was the army composition advice I was looking for.
I do sometimes field 10 man units of Combi-flamers ,or TL Hflamer + Flamer Dreds for "one way ticket" drop pod units to maximize the Template effect.
I suppose I can also add another 10 man assault squad with a chaplain to my roster.



Great article that I fully enjoyed reading (especially that he could bring in Intern resources to help)
Though Ive had trouble finding non-rounded dice in my area, so I havent been able to test the results.

BlackSpike wrote:An article on dice, mainly based on RPGs, but still relevant for wargaming:

http://maddwarf.co.uk/Articles/dice.htm


[quote: http://maddwarf.co.uk/Articles/dice.htm]
"Babel scholars find great enlightenment in piling all of their dice on top of each other until the stack collapses, under the misguided impression that they will have benefited from the higher altitude."


"The two remaining schools have conflicting ideas, with one asserting that dice left showing a certain score will 'wear out' that roll, leaving the other sides to catch up when they are rolled."
"I subscribe to a regime of training, where dice left showing sixes (or tens, or ones) will get used to being that way up, and try to return to that position when disturbed. A variation on these two teaches that rolling the dice until a run of a certain number/range will ensure that range again / guarantee a different roll."

I suppose its no more insane than what I'm talking about

So, next steps being:
Step: 1 - Create an entirely baseless opinion (I'm excellent at these) about the correct dice rolling behavior and viciously defend it. I will call it the Pro League
Step: 2 - Buy the most obscenely expensive (non-rounded) D6 dice I can find.
(I'm thinking dice made of the finest Jade made by blind craftsmen who will then be killed to ensure that their perfection will never be matched)
Step: 3 - Lavish them with gifts, fine wine and all the morally quetionable dice activities they can take
Step: 4 - Train them constantly [Using above method], Newbs will be trained to roll 3+, Vets will train to roll 4+, and the celebrity dice will train to roll 5+
Step: 4 - Store them in a delux silk lined carrying case (perhaps using the skull of one of the Jade Craftsmen)
Step: 5 - Purchase an even more ostentatious rolling cup (No Indiana Jones, Cup of Christ for these bad boys)
Step: 6 - Clackity Clack ...... Win?


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/06/30 05:13:08


.. Black Forest .. Red Sea .. 
   
Made in us
Missionary On A Mission




The Eye of Terror

On that note, bag carrying cases wear your dice out. Don't use them, but if you must, don't keep a whole bunch of dice in them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/06/30 05:29:35


 
   
Made in au
Killer Klaivex






Forever alone

If you're a low roller, then turn every die until you have the result you want. If your opponent protests, take him out the back and whack him with a sack full of dice until he agrees.

People are like dice, a certain Frenchman said that. You throw yourself in the direction of your own choosing. People are free because they can do that. Everyone's circumstances are different, but no matter how small the choice, at the very least, you can throw yourself. It's not chance or fate. It's the choice you made. 
   
Made in ca
Angered Reaver Arena Champion






I suggest never whacking an opponent.

Sangfroid Marines 5000 pts
Wych Cult 2000
Tau 2000 
   
Made in au
Killer Klaivex






Forever alone

If you don't have a bag of dice or the red whacking stick from Assault on Black Reach, rape is a viable option.

People are like dice, a certain Frenchman said that. You throw yourself in the direction of your own choosing. People are free because they can do that. Everyone's circumstances are different, but no matter how small the choice, at the very least, you can throw yourself. It's not chance or fate. It's the choice you made. 
   
Made in us
Missionary On A Mission




The Eye of Terror

That's not funny or appropriate.

 
   
Made in ca
Angered Reaver Arena Champion






Well to be fair I found it mildly funny, but yes completely inappropriate.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/06/30 05:52:05


Sangfroid Marines 5000 pts
Wych Cult 2000
Tau 2000 
   
Made in au
Killer Klaivex






Forever alone

Oh, inappropriate is it?

While we're at it, why don't we discuss why bashing religion is appropriate? You aren't exactly innocent, CR.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2009/06/30 06:10:02


People are like dice, a certain Frenchman said that. You throw yourself in the direction of your own choosing. People are free because they can do that. Everyone's circumstances are different, but no matter how small the choice, at the very least, you can throw yourself. It's not chance or fate. It's the choice you made. 
   
Made in ca
Committed Chaos Cult Marine





Vancouver

This thread is so useful, and helpful in so many ways...


95% of teens would go into a panic attack if the jonas brothers were about to jump off the empire state building copy and paste this if you´╗┐ are the 5% who would pull up a lawn chair grab some popcorn and yell JUMP BITCHES!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mekboy wrote:Tzeentch: Full house! Yay!
Deciver: Straight Flush! Yay!
Eldrad: Four of a kind! Awww!
Creed: Warhound titan. Die, xenos scum!







 
   
Made in us
Long-Range Black Templar Land Speeder Pilot




Chicago

Dracos wrote:This is the result of some direct factors such as the dice themselves and/or how you roll them, not some nebulous "luck" factor. What you are experiencing is likely confirmation bias (of your belief that you are a Low Roller).

If you want to ease the effect of statistical abnormalities then you need to increase the number of dice being rolled in any given situation.

More models = less impact on each roll.

If you believe yourself to be a "Low Roller" simply play an army that rolls lots of dice at once. Nids and Orks are good suggestions.


Too true. The power of suggestion is a factor.

I tend to do better when I roll the dice on a large open surface (usually an unused table next to the one I'm playing on), probably because it allows for more free rolling.

Either that or more power of suggestion.

Maybe you could borrow my technique. Extreme and creative profanity if a roll is significantly worse than it "should be." (i.e. 4 ones in 5 dice)

Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. -Groucho Marx
Sanctjud wrote:It's not just lame... it's Twilight Blood Angels Nipples Lame.
 
   
 
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