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Well I have played two games now of 40K, My first game was a 1K point match against Chaos Space Marines; I got massacred. My second game was an allied game, 3K points per side. I was allied with Witchhunters took and battled Necrons and Space Orks. We got massacred; granted we had to end at turn two (it was a very long first two turns) so we may have came back, but I rather doubt it. I played Blood Angels for both games (my only 40K army).

I am not real sure how I feel about it. I realize that anytime you play a new army, let alone a new game system, you are going to go through some growing pains. I lost about three years straight when I first started playing fantasy before I won my first game. 40K is very different from fantasy. I did not think it was going to be so different. There is a whole set of strategies for the game, which starts in the army list. From what I have seen so far, you can really lose the game before you even start. If you don’t bring the right combination of anti-tank and anti-personnel weaponry, you don’t stand of chance on the battlefield. It just doesn’t seem right that a list should be so unforgiving.

The other thing that seems odd is how easy it is to wipe out tanks. I imagine in a game system where tanks are a major make up of the system, the armies involved need to be able to equip themselves with the tools necessary to deal with them, but damn it is easy to wipe them out. In both of my games my vehicles were exploded or immobilized; another aspect of list building, how to protect your tanks.

Terrain set-up is also important, more so then in WHFB. Things like line of sight and cover saves are so very important. It seems odd though to liter the table top with so much scenery or terrain. It’s feels like it bears more effect on the game then the player’s generalship. Maybe it is the amalgamation though that defines the generalship.

This is all before the game has started!

The other thing that I have noticed is there are a lot more rules debates in 40K then in fantasy, even from veteran players. I can understand newbs (like me) not misinterpreting a rule and getting it wrong in game play, but I see that a lot amongst long time players. I know as a newb, it really does help to have an opponent that has a strong knowledge base of the rules to help guide you along the course of the game. Maybe this is because the new edition has received a fairly significant overhaul. But I thought this edition was supposed to tie up loose ends and streamline the game to make it more fun and faster. I know in my allied game it took us about three hours to get through two turns. Certain things contributed to that. The fact that the game was a 6K point game (in total) and we had to take up some time to look for rules clarification, but the time seems excessive.

I am not trying to bash 40K, I know it is a very popular system and I am enjoying it. I won’t give up on it. I know that only two games ever, does not give the game a fair amount of time to gauge an informed opinion. When I play, I do not need to win. I am looking for the fun and camaraderie that our hobby has to offer. These are just a few observations that I have. I would love to hear your thoughts on the subject.

Terrain setup and army building is very important. These are going to set the context for your battle of generalship. Being a good general is about using every resource you have to its fullest. Sometimes that is just not going to be good enough when you just don't have the tools to deal with a particular threat well. This is where strategy comes in. The actual game play is all about tactics, but the army list and are all about strategy.

I find it important to balance your list well for anti-personal and anti-tank. I always build all-comers lists and seldom tweek just to face a particular opponent. The terrain setup can easily favor one side versus the other. Just today I played 2 games, 1 vs Tao and another vs IG. Perhaps not so surprisingly, the Tao player was trying to get as little terrain in the center as possible (obv for clear LOS) while the IG player wanted to load it up with as much terrain as possible so that he would have cover saves. Its important that both players understand the impact the terrain will have and not try to push it to their advantage. Set up a decent looking board, not too crowded or sparse, and go for it.

I found that sometimes it's okay to lose the first couple of games because then you draw out an opponents strategy and you begin to be able to exploit his/her weaknesses.

Mouse wrote:Well I have played two games now of 40K, My first game was a 1K point match against Chaos Space Marines; I got massacred. My second game was an allied game, 3K points per side. I was allied with Witchhunters took and battled Necrons and Space Orks. We got massacred; granted we had to end at turn two (it was a very long first two turns) so we may have came back, but I rather doubt it. I played Blood Angels for both games (my only 40K army).

As a fellow outdated codex player (DA) you have to realize your army is not geared in the same way as the new vanilla marines. Blood Angels ruled the Rhino Rush days of 3rd edition, but now I imagine it takes a little bit more finese.

mouse wrote:I am not real sure how I feel about it. I realize that anytime you play a new army, let alone a new game system, you are going to go through some growing pains. I lost about three years straight when I first started playing fantasy before I won my first game. 40K is very different from fantasy. I did not think it was going to be so different. There is a whole set of strategies for the game, which starts in the army list. From what I have seen so far, you can really lose the game before you even start. If you don’t bring the right combination of anti-tank and anti-personnel weaponry, you don’t stand of chance on the battlefield. It just doesn’t seem right that a list should be so unforgiving.

I think you would be better feedback if we knew what army list you were actually using.

mouse wrote: The other thing that seems odd is how easy it is to wipe out tanks. I imagine in a game system where tanks are a major make up of the system, the armies involved need to be able to equip themselves with the tools necessary to deal with them, but damn it is easy to wipe them out. In both of my games my vehicles were exploded or immobilized; another aspect of list building, how to protect your tanks.

This is just the state the game is in right now, all mech or mech lists. Taking enough tac squads with flamer/melta or melta/melta combinations are in style. You just need to do a little more to help shield them, or make your movement count.

mouse wrote: Terrain set-up is also important, more so then in WHFB. Things like line of sight and cover saves are so very important. It seems odd though to liter the table top with so much scenery or terrain. It’s feels like it bears more effect on the game then the player’s generalship. Maybe it is the amalgamation though that defines the generalship.

Another in style, especially vs. high armor or horde armies. Can't have to many cover saves.

mouse wrote: This is all before the game has started!

The other thing that I have noticed is there are a lot more rules debates in 40K then in fantasy, even from veteran players. I can understand newbs (like me) not misinterpreting a rule and getting it wrong in game play, but I see that a lot amongst long time players. I know as a newb, it really does help to have an opponent that has a strong knowledge base of the rules to help guide you along the course of the game. Maybe this is because the new edition has received a fairly significant overhaul. But I thought this edition was supposed to tie up loose ends and streamline the game to make it more fun and faster. I know in my allied game it took us about three hours to get through two turns. Certain things contributed to that. The fact that the game was a 6K point game (in total) and we had to take up some time to look for rules clarification, but the time seems excessive.

Um, I think if you just take a look at the shear numbers of posts in the YMDK for 40k vs Fantasy you'll see why. 40k has been a game of rules lawyering since I started playing, which only adds to the popularity and figuring out the new broken combinations you can field.

mouse wrote: I am not trying to bash 40K, I know it is a very popular system and I am enjoying it. I won’t give up on it. I know that only two games ever, does not give the game a fair amount of time to gauge an informed opinion. When I play, I do not need to win. I am looking for the fun and camaraderie that our hobby has to offer. These are just a few observations that I have. I would love to hear your thoughts on the subject.

Keep playing if you like it. BA have some really cool rules and vehicles. It' just that GW in their infinite wisdom has taken away all the uniquness of the original chapters (DA, BA, SW, BT) and forged them into Smurfs. They should have just put all of our special characters in one book and let us have our special rules. But now we're going to see SW come out with their own codex (yet another marine codex) and they will break all the Smurfs rules and sell more models.

Very Cyclical, that 40k . . . .

Mouse, can I see your armylist??? Maybe I can help you with the list??!!

I've only won 1 game so far, i've had 2 draws and a gak load of losses. But it's still fun, trying new things each game keeps me going.
With your terrain problem, i played an Eldar player the other day that changed how I'm going to set up the board from now on. We divided up the terrain between us evenly, then roll to see who goes first. Then the person that won places the first piece, then rolls 2d6 and a scatter dice. We took turns doing that until all the pieces were on the table. Our board looked random, like natural terrain and it made the game a lot more fun because the "cliffs" wasn't favouring anyone in particular.
Try that next time. Oh, welcome to the world of 40k!

Terrain plays a much bigger role in 40K than it does in Fantasy...but then again, you have to move massive blocks of infantry around in Fantasy - not so in 40K. It's much easier to maneuver around obstacles if you don't want to roll difficult terrain tests.

My cousins and I usually set up a board prior to rolling for missions and deployment. We just make an attractive or thematic board and go from there. It usually turns out to be fairly balanced in terms of cover saves, etc.

the_emperors_renegade wrote:Mouse, can I see your armylist??? Maybe I can help you with the list??!!

Here is the list I brought. For my 1K game it was pretty much the same except for the second assault squad, scout squad, rhino, & whirlwind.

HQ:
Chaplain; jump pack.

Troops:
10 Tactical Squad; Rhino (storm bolter), missile launcher, (Sgt. melta-bomb).

5 Assault Squad; (Sgt. power weapon, combat shield).

5 Assault Squad; (Sgt. power weapon, plasma pistol).

Elites:
5 Death Company; jump packs.

5 Terminator Squad.

10 Scout Squad; (Sgt. power weapon, plasma pistol), heavy bolter upgrade.

1 Furioso Dreadnought; death company upgrade.

Heavy Support:
Baal Predator; pintle mounted storm bolter, side sponson heavy bolters.

Whirlwind; extra armor, pintle mounted storm bolter.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

This list is directly affected by what I have painted. The other models that I have battle ready are a Captain, Librarian, 5 honor guard, 5 assault squad,10 Devastators armed with four plasma cannons, and an additional rhino.

What I have unpainted: Land Raider, Baal Predator, Dreadnought, 3 attack bikes, 8 bikes, 10 tactical squad, 5 assault squad, 5 terminator squad, 1 Techmarine w/ 5 servitors, 10 scout squad (w/ one heavy bolter and five sniper rifles), and 5 more death company.

I want to reiterate I know it will take time to learn the system and how the game plays, as well as how to play Blood Angels. Thanks for the comments, and for looking at my list. Any help will be appreciated, especially with what to augment my list with.

don't worry about it as long as you're having fun. As for people spending hours arguing over rules - don't play them if you can help it. As the advice is in the rules, if you can't agree quickly, roll a dice and check the rule after the game to keep up the pace. If both of you are out for a good time you won't mind.

As for the list, I'm not too up on the new codex but my immediate impression is there are a few areas with a few wasted points in my opinion - can't speak for others. For example extra armour on a whirlwind - as far as i know this reduces crew stunned to shaken and doesn't help keep that weapon firing which i assume is the reason for having the tank in the first place. I'd also combine the two small assult squads if posisble into a larger one for staying power. I know lots of people hate chaplains, especially with extra stuff like jump-packs or bikes, but i'm a big fan of them. Other point is I'd try to squeeze in a couple of extra troops choices for objective holding, especially if you're heading for 1,500 pts. I know my old marines I used to play with a minimum of 3 full size troops, sometimes as high as 5 or 6 in a 1500pt game.

Terrain - when you deploy work out your best fire lines, and also consider how the terrain will force your oppontents moves. The more there is, the more easy it will be to work out what they will do in most games. Use this to deploy your ranged weapons for maximum effect, while limiting how many ooppontents units can see to shoot back. Ideally you want to set up where they move one squad at a time into a space where you can blast them without fear of being targetted back by lots of units. Weaponless tanks and rhinos that have dropped of their cargo and have little purpose left are great as moving terrain (beardy I know!) to allow you to 'divide and conquer'.

Keep going and good luck!

Give the extra armour to the rhino that way it doesn't get stopped with stunned results letting you get your stuff there a bit easier. Problem is that people usually target transports early in the game to slow down any troops so that Rhino will probably draw a fair bit of fire early on. If you can make that Terminator squad into an Assault Terminator squad and put them into the LR.

Depending on what LR you're using, in objective games you could put the tactical squad into it and park it on an objective. This mostly works with the God Hammer (Lascannons for the sides, I'm not sure for the top gun though. Probably Assault Cannon) LR though. If you're not already doing it, it would probably be a good idea for the Predator and Rhino to drive around together.

IIRC, the black rage is for all units - troops, dreads, rhinos, etc?

Baal Preds are freaking awesome.

Chaplain w/jump pack is fluffy (for DC), but maybe a combi weapon? flamer/melta.

Tac squad - drop the ML. If you rage, you can't fire it anyway. Go with melta/flamer option.

Are you playing your assault squads w/wo packs? Either way, I agree move them to 1 10 man. PF/PW on the Sgt I could go either way, but this squad has the ability to have 3 Plasma Pistols. Not bad.

Sct squad - again with Rage drop the HB. Take the Assault oriented items which is what BA are made for anyway.

Two Baals and you're a Man. Three Baals and you're a freaking alien crusher. But yeah, extra armor doesn't do much. Just take your assault squads all with JP and then you don't have to take the Rhino




Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Furioso is good too, but with the DC upgrade, your opponent may just keep it busy with a low cost unit and it will never get into hth.

And vanilla smurfs get the Ironclad, which is essentially the same thing without the chain/choker.

Try to find somebody who doesn't mind playing a "teaching game" If you end up playing against people that roll fast and talk faster the experience might not be so fun. If somebody's willing to say, "man I messed up. I left those guys in the open now you can maul them with your guys over there" and kinda help you not only with rules but tactics the game should be not only educational, but fun. I try to find people that don't get upset when they roll poorly or lose. Those people play for fun, not just to win.

Edit: to add in with the people that don't get upset by losing... avoid people who gloat when winning.

I would agree. Don't worry about special rules et al for now. Just sit down and play vanilla for small points.

500pt games can still be teachable and fun.

To the OP :
As a new player, I played 4 games so far. One against someone who never played ever but has a good graps of strategy (a draw) and 3 against decent/good players (another draw and 2 losses).
They were all 500-1000 points games.

Playeing such big games as your first games doesn't seem like a very good diea to me. You probably felt overwhelmed and didn't learn much. Also time was wasted looking up rules, as you said.

Start slow and small, then move up as you feel comfortable. It's what I'm doing, and from one game to another, I can see I'm improving and I have the opportunity to see and reflect on my mistakes and my good moves as well as my opponent's.

Mouse wrote:

the_emperors_renegade wrote:Mouse, can I see your armylist??? Maybe I can help you with the list??!!

Here is the list I brought. For my 1K game it was pretty much the same except for the second assault squad, scout squad, rhino, & whirlwind.

HQ:
Chaplain; jump pack.

Troops:
10 Tactical Squad; Rhino (storm bolter), missile launcher, (Sgt. melta-bomb).

5 Assault Squad; (Sgt. power weapon, combat shield).

5 Assault Squad; (Sgt. power weapon, plasma pistol).

Elites:
5 Death Company; jump packs.

5 Terminator Squad.

10 Scout Squad; (Sgt. power weapon, plasma pistol), heavy bolter upgrade.

1 Furioso Dreadnought; death company upgrade.

Heavy Support:
Baal Predator; pintle mounted storm bolter, side sponson heavy bolters.

Whirlwind; extra armor, pintle mounted storm bolter.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

This list is directly affected by what I have painted. The other models that I have battle ready are a Captain, Librarian, 5 honor guard, 5 assault squad,10 Devastators armed with four plasma cannons, and an additional rhino.

What I have unpainted: Land Raider, Baal Predator, Dreadnought, 3 attack bikes, 8 bikes, 10 tactical squad, 5 assault squad, 5 terminator squad, 1 Techmarine w/ 5 servitors, 10 scout squad (w/ one heavy bolter and five sniper rifles), and 5 more death company.

I want to reiterate I know it will take time to learn the system and how the game plays, as well as how to play Blood Angels. Thanks for the comments, and for looking at my list. Any help will be appreciated, especially with what to augment my list with.

That looks pretty good already! You've got a wide selection of models for your list...here's my advise/list for 1k games:

1k( +/- a few points...can't find the al right now! )

HQ:

-Chaplain(Jumppack,Plasmapistol)

Elites:

-10 Deathcompany(Jumppacks)

Troops:

-10 Assault Marines(sgt. with Powerfist,Plasmapistol)

-10 Assault Marines(sgt. with Powerfist,Plasmapistol)


HEAVY SUPPORT:

-Predator(TLLC, HB sponsons)


that should be 1k points( i hope,i'll check it later...it's a pretty aggressive assault army which can ds everywhere and can take out tanks with the predator ar the powerfist if you can get close enough! Hope that helps!







No Uriel, rage is only for the death company!

The codex I have been using is the PDF from the GW website, and the rules for the “Black Rage” have been changed. .Units don’t rage anymore, now certain units get a death company model if you purchase the unit, i.e., one death company model for one unit of tac marines.

Thanks for the response and advice guys. Oh I’ll keep playing, I have put to much investment already to give up 40K, and beside it is a fun system. I was just expressing my observations from my first two games. I do think that smaller scale games would be wiser in order to learn the system. I remember playing 750 point fantasy games when I first stated the hobby (back in 4th edition WHFB).

yeah they should bring out a new codex with lots of background and stuff 'coz thee current one only has like 20 pages...