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2009/07/15 15:12:30
Subject: Available gene seed.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The Adeptus Terra keeps samples of every chapter created since the heresy, would they have samples too of any of the old traitor legions? Survivors of the purges carried out by Horus did make it back to the Imperium and some are thought to have been the first Grey Knights. Would their gene seed have been collected too? Creating a chapter based on say Mortarion's gene seed is supposed to be a big fluff no no, but after 10,000 years surely it's possible to have enough gene seed from that source to do so? Or any of the other traitor legions for that matter. It's not like their gene seed was inferior, for a number of them it was mere chance that they became traitor legions rather than one of the loyalist legions.
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2009/07/15 15:37:03
Subject: Available gene seed.
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
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well rumour has it the blood ravens were created from the thousand sons gene seed. So although I don't know if they keep it on terra there certainly are chapters created with them. Saying that the blood ravens are suposedly feel ashemed of that fact.
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2009/07/15 15:40:26
Subject: Available gene seed.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Any indicator as to where the Thousand Sons gene seed was sourced?
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2009/07/15 15:41:30
Subject: Available gene seed.
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Avatar of the Bloody-Handed God
Inside your mind, corrupting the pathways
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I was of the impression that there were quite a number of individual marines from the turned legions who remained loyal, indicating that it was more the individual than just the gene seed which was the cause of forsaking the Imperium.
So I don't see much trouble in fielding chapters which are created using "traitor" legion gene seeds from loyal traitors
It could be interesting having modern SM's with traits common to some of the traitor legions, and it could also be interesting to have the big "I" keeping a close watch on things, perhaps expressed by having an inquisitor filling one of the HQ slots for example.
Though I think such chapters would probably be quite rare and small (to limit any potential damage).
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/15 15:43:05
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2009/07/15 15:42:07
Subject: Available gene seed.
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
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cadbren wrote:Any indicator as to where the Thousand Sons gene seed was sourced?
Unfortuenatly it's very obscure to all the detail. Saying that I haven't read all of the dawn of war trillogy so someone else might know.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/15 15:42:43
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2009/07/15 15:55:11
Subject: Available gene seed.
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
Finland
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cadbren wrote:The Adeptus Terra keeps samples of every chapter created since the heresy, would they have samples too of any of the old traitor legions?
Yes. After the Heresy, the Adeptus Terra created genetic repositories to produce and store Astartes gene-seed. This way they had the ultimate power to create ( or destroy ) Space Marine armies. The gene-seed of the Traitor Legions was placed under a time-locked stasis seal after the Heresy ( Index Astartes page 12 ).
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12001st Valusian Airborne
Chrome Warriors
Death Guard
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2009/07/15 16:34:23
Subject: Available gene seed.
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Thunderhawk Pilot Dropping From Orbit
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Werent the loyalist of the traitor legions locked up, in a cell for like the ladt 10,000 years?
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2009/07/15 16:34:56
Subject: Available gene seed.
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Foolproof Falcon Pilot
Somewhere in the unknown universe.
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Xav wrote:Werent the loyalist of the traitor legions locked up, in a cell for like the ladt 10,000 years?
No.
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Manchu wrote:Agamemnon2 wrote:
Congratulations, that was the stupidest remark the entire wargaming community has managed to produce in a long, long time.
Congratulations, your dismissive and conclusory commentary has provided nothing to this discussion or the wider community on whose behalf you arrogantly presume to speak nor does it engage in any meaningful way the remark it lamely targets. But you did manage to gain experience points toward your next level of internet tough guy. |
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2009/07/18 06:07:44
Subject: Re:Available gene seed.
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Armored Iron Breaker
Lookin' fur daemons ta' fight!
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I think that by the way that the Imperium thinks, they would probably destroy the gene seed of traitor legions, conisdering them blasphemous or unholy, but then again the gene seed might be too precious to waste.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/18 06:08:10
Teh Emprah Protects
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2009/07/19 08:59:29
Subject: Available gene seed.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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There were thousands of loyal marines from the traitor legions that had to be killed by the traitors before they could attack the Imperium. That suggests that the gene seed was not the problem but the individual marine. It would be safe enough to have a chapter of marines based on "traitor" gene-seed (and the Blood Ravens are considered an example as are the Grey Knights) and be totally loyal to the emperor.
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2009/07/19 09:09:02
Subject: Available gene seed.
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[MOD]
Solahma
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I'm still not seeing a source for this "Blood Ravens are a Thousand Sons second founding" business.
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2009/07/19 09:23:30
Subject: Available gene seed.
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Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought
Where ever the Emperor needs his eyes
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In the Goto books, Ahriman claims that the Blood Ravens are created from the Thousand Sons gene-seed.
Since it was written by Goto, in the last book of the DoW series, normally I wouldn't think it was more than his usual filth but it does seem to make sense.
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2009/07/19 09:24:30
Subject: Available gene seed.
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[MOD]
Solahma
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BrotherStynier wrote:Since it was written by Goto, in the last book of the DoW series, normally I wouldn't think it was more than his usual filth but it does seem to make sense.
How so?
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2009/07/19 09:27:40
Subject: Available gene seed.
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Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought
Where ever the Emperor needs his eyes
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They seem to have a much larger amount of Librarians than many normal Chapters, a trait shared with the Thousand Sons. The large quantity of Librarians is claimed in a couple White Dwarfs if I remember correctly.
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2009/07/19 12:48:05
Subject: Available gene seed.
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Killer Klaivex
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It's also possible that the Blood Ravens are an offshoot of the Word Bearers, as Eliphas the Inheritor (from DoW: Dark Crusade) refers to Davian Thule as 'brother', something only Space Marines of the same chapter do.
The possibility of them being a Thousand Sons-based chapter is fairly plausible due to their high number of psykers. They might have been created from the geneseed of Thousand Son loyalists after the Horus Heresy who didn't help found the Grey Knights.
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People are like dice, a certain Frenchman said that. You throw yourself in the direction of your own choosing. People are free because they can do that. Everyone's circumstances are different, but no matter how small the choice, at the very least, you can throw yourself. It's not chance or fate. It's the choice you made. |
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2009/07/19 17:58:16
Subject: Available gene seed.
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
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It seems like a pretty good idea to collect traitor gene seed and they probly did. But Idk how they are making use of them. Maybe studying what made them corrupt or saving them for a rainy day incase they need more Marines.
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2009/07/19 18:48:59
Subject: Available gene seed.
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Thunderhawk Pilot Dropping From Orbit
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The Blood Ravens warcry is "For the Unknown Primarch". I think there are a mixture of Loyalist Death guard, world eaters, world bearers, son of Horus etc.
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2009/07/20 05:47:13
Subject: Available gene seed.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Cheese Elemental wrote:It's also possible that the Blood Ravens are an offshoot of the Word Bearers, as Eliphas the Inheritor (from DoW: Dark Crusade) refers to Davian Thule as 'brother', something only Space Marines of the same chapter do.
All marines are brothers as that is what their title is. They're basically warrior monks after all.
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2009/07/20 08:02:41
Subject: Available gene seed.
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Killer Klaivex
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Xav wrote:The Blood Ravens warcry is "For the Unknown Primarch". I think there are a mixture of Loyalist Death guard, world eaters, world bearers, son of Horus etc.
No, that's the Grey Knights.
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People are like dice, a certain Frenchman said that. You throw yourself in the direction of your own choosing. People are free because they can do that. Everyone's circumstances are different, but no matter how small the choice, at the very least, you can throw yourself. It's not chance or fate. It's the choice you made. |
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2009/07/20 09:12:03
Subject: Available gene seed.
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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Grey Knights are, supposedly, created from the same genestock as the Adeptus Custodes.
Which is, again supposedly, the Emperor himself.
Blood Ravens being a Second Founding of the Thousand Sons *does* make sense given that, frankly, the Thousand Sons were 'less corrupted' than the other Traitor Legions. Add in the high number of Psykers, the secretive nature of the Chapter, the run-ins they've supposedly had with the Inquisition, the sheer amount of pre-Heresy wargear they're depicted as having had in DOW2...
And it fits.
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2009/07/20 09:34:10
Subject: Available gene seed.
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)
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I don't think that they would use only one source to create a new chapter (especially if one of the sources was a traitor legion. They would mix it up a little no?
How many space marines were there during the time of the Great Crusade?
The same there is now?
If yes, then there MUST be some use of traitor legion gene.
If no, then probably (but not definitely) not.
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Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.
"Good game guys, now lets hit the showers" |
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2009/07/20 09:48:50
Subject: Available gene seed.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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How many space marines were there during the time of the Great Crusade?
A lot.
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2009/07/20 10:13:21
Subject: Available gene seed.
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)
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Smartasss. How about some numbers here?
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Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.
"Good game guys, now lets hit the showers" |
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2009/07/20 10:37:47
Subject: Available gene seed.
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
Finland
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Emperors Faithful wrote:Smartasss. How about some numbers here?
There are no hard numbers available. The question about the size of Astartes Legions during ( and after ) the Great Crusade is one those questions that periodically appear on forums. The information we have about the size and organization of the Legions is very general and open to intepretations.The Horus Heresy novels have shed some additional light on some questions but hard numbers are still elusive.
Some generally accepted facts:
- There was no theoretical upper limit to the size of a Legion
- Some Legions were smaller than others ( Thousand Sons being a "small" Legion )
- The size of the Legions were measured in the thousands, some Legions must have had tens of thousands of Astartes prior to the Heresy.
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12001st Valusian Airborne
Chrome Warriors
Death Guard
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2009/07/20 10:38:18
Subject: Available gene seed.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I don't think any numbers exist. There were 20 legions and each legion supposedly had several or tens of thousands each.
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2009/07/20 10:41:09
Subject: Available gene seed.
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)
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hmm, but the original question still stands. Are the number of marines left in 40k equal to the number of marines in the Great Crusades? (Traitor AND Loyalist)
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Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.
"Good game guys, now lets hit the showers" |
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2009/07/20 10:46:23
Subject: Available gene seed.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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As for specific numbers, the Ultramarine legion divided into 23? chapters so I assume that means there were at least 23,000 at the end of the heresy. The HH books mention the Dark Angels as having a Calibanite chapter for every Terran one so battle losses aside, they must have nearly doubled in size to what they were during the Crusade.
I assume also the the legions which were originally recruited from earth were originally the same size as each other. After they met their primarchs they then expanded or declined at the rate each primarch wished. Automatically Appended Next Post: 20 legions times 20,000 equals 400,000. Okay maybe it should be 18 legions but anyway...
20 legions at 40,000 each is 800,000.
1000 chapters at 1000 marines each is a million. Unless the legions averaged over 40,000 each then there are more marines "today".
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/07/20 10:49:03
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2009/07/20 10:57:48
Subject: Available gene seed.
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Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter
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Well 20 legions x 20,000 wont be right as it is mentioned in the HH novels the unltramarines were a extrordinarily large chapter. The salamanders for example numbered less than a thousand which is why their are no 1st founding succesors to them.
But in any case I imagine what with god knows how many subsequent foundings and something like 1000 succesor chapters there are far more marines now than there were pre-heresy.
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2009/07/20 11:08:28
Subject: Available gene seed.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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The Salamanders and Raven Guard were almost wiped out on Istvaan V though. Which reminds me, in Fulgrim there are some numbers given for the opposing forces at Istvaan V which suggests an average of 10,000 each.
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2009/07/20 11:09:45
Subject: Available gene seed.
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
Finland
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Emperors Faithful wrote:hmm, but the original question still stands. Are the number of marines left in 40k equal to the number of marines in the Great Crusades? (Traitor AND Loyalist)
Unknown. Insufficient data. Too many variables.
Personal opinion: Traitors have propably never recouped their losses from the Heresy (several Legions disintegrated, lack of resources and facilities etc. ). Although they do recruit new warriors the process is less efficient and organized than the Imperial system. The situation of Loyalist Astartes is better. The imperium has a coordinated and efficient system for Gene-seed production that can produce new Chapters ( although slowly ) when necessary. The total number of Loyalists is still propably nowhere near the bloated numbers of the original Legions. The screening and testing process for Gene-seed is more strict following the hard lessons of the Heresy, so the total number of new Astartes that be created is more limited.
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12001st Valusian Airborne
Chrome Warriors
Death Guard
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