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 Dynas wrote:

 Zimko wrote:

 Dynas wrote:
So example just to make sure I understand correctly on this double charge.

Unit A charges Chaos Marines
Unit B charges Montarion
Unit C is locked in combat with brimstones from prior turn.

In pysker phase I cast Paroxysm on Montarion, he fails to deny. Goes off Successfully.

In the fight phase, its might turn, I choose to fight with unit A first since it charged.
Unit B also gets to fight first since it charged. However, he plays the Counter Assault stratagem to attack first, he has now wasted 2 CP, as I remind him he has Paroxysm on him and always fights last.
Then I get to go to the beginning of alternating unit selection so now Unit C fights first against the brimstones.

Now assuming all units survived my attacks, my opponent has to pick either the Marines or the Brimstones to attack next.

Then after everyone on his side has fought Montarion gets to fight.

Is this correct?

That's my understanding, though after my opponent learns that they don't get to attack with Mortarion, I would allow them to either take back the 2 CP or allow them to use the strategem on something else. It's a rules question that resulted in them using the strat on Mortarion. I don't think it would be fair to penalize them if the rule was simply misunderstood since it's an an unusual rule interaction.

Forcing your opponent to accept wasting 2 CP would be one of those unsportsmanlike things that Tony got crucified for at LVO. Yeah you may be technically correct but everyone knows it's not cool to do.

Yeah. If anything, it would at least shut down the ability for the opponent to use the interrupt stratagem on a key unit once you lock it in. So it still has its uses.

I would be careful with this. Since Mortarion would still be eligible to fight in that phase he could theoretically be targeted with the 2 CP stratagem. All Paroxysm would accomplish is that no one could attack after him since he would have to be "last" to fight.

that's not at all how that works. Paroxysm makes whoever you cast it on swing last after all other units swing. It doesn't mean when the unit who is paroxysm'd swings no other units get to swing.

Tyran wrote:
Why not replace two tyrannocites with a Trygon, and use the stratagem to bring the Prime with the Trygon?

Because that list is Gorgon and the strategem is Jormungandr.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
that's not at all how that works. Paroxysm makes whoever you cast it on swing last after all other units swing. It doesn't mean when the unit who is paroxysm'd swings no other units get to swing.

Why not? He is still eligible to swing, just has to be last. 2 CP gets him his chance. Since everyone else had to go before him, they missed their chance because he was last.

I was trying to clearify that charging or using the 2CP stratgem does not override paroxysmn. But we are all on the same page now.

Do anybody have a list of units that it does not work on? Banshees mask,is that one?

Doesn't work on Culexes assassin :p

And Goobi2 since paroxysm states that whoever you cast it on has to swing last, AFTER ALL OTHER UNITS WHO ARE FIGHTING, he obviously cant just say "ok, I'm fighting now and no one else gets to fight after me".

also thanks for the backup on that lance.

You could of course use trygons instead of tyranocytes if you could squeeze out the extra points and find some extra heavy support slots. Probably wouldn't be hard to get at least one in. No stratagem support though, so would need 1 trygon per infantry unit.

 Eihnlazer wrote:

And Goobi2 since paroxysm states that whoever you cast it on has to swing last, AFTER ALL OTHER UNITS WHO ARE FIGHTING, he obviously cant just say "ok, I'm fighting now and no one else gets to fight after me".

Well, given that no one would be attacking after him satisfies that capped section, since the only other fighting unit would have been that initial charger.

Goobi you're not making any sense.

2 units are charging. 1 non charging unit has paroxysm. The first charging unit fights. The opponent wants to use the strategem to fight with the non-charging unit but can't because all other eligible units haven't fought yet as per Paroxysm. (The other charging unit is still eligible to fight and hasn't done so yet, thus the requirements of Paroxysm haven't been met for the non-charging unit to fight.

Now please explain in that context what you're suggesting.

Goobi, no.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Doesn't work on Culexes assassin :p

And Goobi2 since paroxysm states that whoever you cast it on has to swing last, AFTER ALL OTHER UNITS WHO ARE FIGHTING, he obviously cant just say "ok, I'm fighting now and no one else gets to fight after me".

also thanks for the backup on that lance.

You could of course use trygons instead of tyranocytes if you could squeeze out the extra points and find some extra heavy support slots. Probably wouldn't be hard to get at least one in. No stratagem support though, so would need 1 trygon per infantry unit.

One Trygon per a TROOP. Trygons can only bring troops with them. It's the jorm Strat that opens them up to bringing any infantry. Couldn't bring a Prime with a Trygon if you wanted to.

What are people's thoughts on swapping Carnifexs out for Hive Tyrants? 40-50pts seems pretty good to get a 4++ invul and a pair of psychic powers.

 Zimko wrote:
Goobi you're not making any sense.

2 units are charging. 1 non charging unit has paroxysm. The first charging unit fights. The opponent wants to use the strategem to fight with the non-charging unit but can't because all other eligible units haven't fought yet as per Paroxysm. (The other charging unit is still eligible to fight and hasn't done so yet, thus the requirements of Paroxysm haven't been met for the non-charging unit to fight.

Now please explain in that context what you're suggesting.

I am suggesting that 2 units are charging. 1 non charging unit has paroxysm. The first charging unit fights. The opponent wants to use the stratagem to fight with the non-charging unit and can since it is still a unit that is eligible to fight. (The other charging unit isn't still eligible to fight as the Paroxysm'd unit had to be last, thus the requirements of Paroxysm have been met.)

The stratagem is designed to interrupt any priority in selecting eligible units after the initial charging unit. Paroxysm is effectively only as restrictive as the base BRB rules saying non-charging units have to be selected after all chargers have attacked. That line in the charging rules has the same amount of impact as to saying who is able to be selected. The stratagem is satisfied in that the charger goes 1st and that the Paroxysm'd unit is ''eligible'' (is within 1'' of an enemy unit). All it takes for Paroxysm to be satisfied is no one can fight after the Paroxysm'd unit.

Goobi2 wrote:

 Zimko wrote:
Goobi you're not making any sense.

2 units are charging. 1 non charging unit has paroxysm. The first charging unit fights. The opponent wants to use the strategem to fight with the non-charging unit but can't because all other eligible units haven't fought yet as per Paroxysm. (The other charging unit is still eligible to fight and hasn't done so yet, thus the requirements of Paroxysm haven't been met for the non-charging unit to fight.

Now please explain in that context what you're suggesting.

All it takes for Paroxysm to be satisfied is no one can fight after the Paroxysm'd unit.

Let's read Paroxysm...

"Until your next psychic phase, that unit cannot fight in the Fight phase until all other units that are able to fight have done so."

By your words... all it takes to be 'eligible' or 'able' to fight is to be within 1" of an enemy unit or to have charged. The second charging unit is most certainly able to fight. It hasn't done so yet. Therefore the requirements of Paroxysm are NOT met if the unit with Paroxysm fights via other means.

 Zimko wrote:

Goobi2 wrote:

 Zimko wrote:
Goobi you're not making any sense.

2 units are charging. 1 non charging unit has paroxysm. The first charging unit fights. The opponent wants to use the strategem to fight with the non-charging unit but can't because all other eligible units haven't fought yet as per Paroxysm. (The other charging unit is still eligible to fight and hasn't done so yet, thus the requirements of Paroxysm haven't been met for the non-charging unit to fight.

Now please explain in that context what you're suggesting.

All it takes for Paroxysm to be satisfied is no one can fight after the Paroxysm'd unit.

Let's read Paroxysm...

"Until your next psychic phase, that unit cannot fight in the Fight phase until all other that are able to fight have done so."

By your words... all it takes to be 'eligible' or 'able' to fight is to be within 1" of an enemy unit or to have charged. The second charging unit is most certainly able to fight. It hasn't done so yet. Therefore the requirements of Paroxysm are NOT met if the unit with Paroxysm fights via other means.

It's because the Paroxysm'd unit attacked that the 2nd charging unit is no longer eligible to attack. The specific rule you attached to the Paroxysm'd unit overrode the general eligibility of the 2nd charging unit.

Goobi2 wrote:

 Zimko wrote:

Goobi2 wrote:

 Zimko wrote:
Goobi you're not making any sense.

2 units are charging. 1 non charging unit has paroxysm. The first charging unit fights. The opponent wants to use the strategem to fight with the non-charging unit but can't because all other eligible units haven't fought yet as per Paroxysm. (The other charging unit is still eligible to fight and hasn't done so yet, thus the requirements of Paroxysm haven't been met for the non-charging unit to fight.

Now please explain in that context what you're suggesting.

All it takes for Paroxysm to be satisfied is no one can fight after the Paroxysm'd unit.

Let's read Paroxysm...

"Until your next psychic phase, that unit cannot fight in the Fight phase until all other that are able to fight have done so."

By your words... all it takes to be 'eligible' or 'able' to fight is to be within 1" of an enemy unit or to have charged. The second charging unit is most certainly able to fight. It hasn't done so yet. Therefore the requirements of Paroxysm are NOT met if the unit with Paroxysm fights via other means.

It's because the Paroxysm'd unit attacked that the 2nd charging unit is no longer eligible to attack. The specific rule you attached to the Paroxysm'd unit overrode the general eligibility of the 2nd charging unit.

Uhhh... how does it override eligibility to fight? A genestealers unit charged. Charging is the only requirement to be 'eligible' to fight. You're saying that Paroxysm somehow removes that eligibility? Paroxysm is a restriction on the unit it is on, not the rest of the units on the board.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You know what, lets take this to You Make Da Call. I think we've taken up enough space here in the tactics thread.

Goobi.. Thats not how that works.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Doesn't work on Culexes assassin :p

And Goobi2 since paroxysm states that whoever you cast it on has to swing last, AFTER ALL OTHER UNITS WHO ARE FIGHTING, he obviously cant just say "ok, I'm fighting now and no one else gets to fight after me".

also thanks for the backup on that lance.

You could of course use trygons instead of tyranocytes if you could squeeze out the extra points and find some extra heavy support slots. Probably wouldn't be hard to get at least one in. No stratagem support though, so would need 1 trygon per infantry unit.

One Trygon per a TROOP. Trygons can only bring troops with them. It's the jorm Strat that opens them up to bringing any infantry. Couldn't bring a Prime with a Trygon if you wanted to.

You can bring a Prime with a Trygon and the Jorm Strat, Primes are infantry after all.

Primes are to costly IMO

If they were just a bit cheaper.

Tyran wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Doesn't work on Culexes assassin :p

And Goobi2 since paroxysm states that whoever you cast it on has to swing last, AFTER ALL OTHER UNITS WHO ARE FIGHTING, he obviously cant just say "ok, I'm fighting now and no one else gets to fight after me".

also thanks for the backup on that lance.

You could of course use trygons instead of tyranocytes if you could squeeze out the extra points and find some extra heavy support slots. Probably wouldn't be hard to get at least one in. No stratagem support though, so would need 1 trygon per infantry unit.

One Trygon per a TROOP. Trygons can only bring troops with them. It's the jorm Strat that opens them up to bringing any infantry. Couldn't bring a Prime with a Trygon if you wanted to.

You can bring a Prime with a Trygon and the Jorm Strat, Primes are infantry after all.

He was talking about a Gorgon list. So no Jorm strat. Also, as highlighted above, I mentioned that.

Goobi, I am not understanding you.

Tyranid Unit A charges Enemy Unit Y (Monty)
Tyranid Unit B is locked in combat with Unit Y (monty) from prior turn.
Tyranid Unit C charges the Enemy Unit Z from prior turn. (brimstones horrors)

In my Psyker phase I cast Paroxysm on enemy unit Y (monty).

Now in Fight Phase. I choose unit A to fight first since it charged.
Opponent is eligible to interrupt but could NOT interrupt with Unit Y (monty) as it has Paroxysm on it and must fight last. He could choose to interrupt with Unit Z.

Lets say he does. Then I get to attack with my unit C vs against Unit Z (brimstones) since it charged.

After that, all units that have charged have fought, so now we go into the alternation method of locked in combat. Since it is my turn I now pick my last unit B to attack his Monty.

Now opponent unit Z attacks, and finally Unit Y (Monty) attacks absolutely LAST due to Paroxysm.

Goobi, using this example what would change? Are you saying after my unit A charges and attacks Unit Y who is paroxysm. The opponent is eligible to play the Interrupt Stratagem on his unit Y (Monty) to attack Unit B only.

The opponent is eligible to play the Stratagem after the charge, but not on the Paroxysm unit.

Edit: long solved question.

I'm working on a list, i cant decide on my flyrants.

I have 3 flyrants, how would you kit them out? The list is 2 batallions, kronos and kraken, leaning more towards a shooty list with 2x6 hive guard and a tyrannofex. Kraken battalion has 2x14 genestealers, the rest of the points are rippers, termagants and a neurothrope. I was thinking, one with devourers and lash and bonesword with the relic, the other two with double devourer. What do you think?

I find myself in love with the first flyrant in my list, but I think come the second and up they start having big diminishing returns.

Reason is the first flyrant I can make a ranged powerhouse with quad devourers and smite/scream. One mobile platform perfect in doing one thing: Dishing huge amounts of mid range damage. Come the second flyrant, I already start seeing saturation issues. When I'm against hordes I could see a need for more devourers but honestly, dude's shooting 24 shots a turn. That's crazy. Plus he van get the +1 damage strat and destroy also elite infantry. But against an all around list, sometimes my second flyrant gets to shoot in non optimal targets, and the third one doesn't really serve much purpose. I find myself wondering if an Exocrine could be a better deal for the points than a third flyrant, and then I find myself thinking if two Exocrines would be a better deal than the second and third flyrant. Usually I go for the exocrines.

 killerpenguin wrote:
I'm working on a list, i cant decide on my flyrants.

I have 3 flyrants, how would you kit them out? The list is 2 batallions, kronos and kraken, leaning more towards a shooty list with 2x6 hive guard and a tyrannofex. Kraken battalion has 2x14 genestealers, the rest of the points are rippers, termagants and a neurothrope. I was thinking, one with devourers and lash and bonesword with the relic, the other two with double devourer. What do you think?

I have 2. I would suggest magnatizing the arms.

I normally run one with MRC and HVC
The other with Devours, Reaper of Obliterax bonesword and lashwhip as you mentioned. With toxin sacs

As attractive as double devourers look, they make your tyrant useless in assault, and since its only 18" range your will find yourself getting assaulted.

ALWAYS take MRC/w toxin sacs.

Its 4 points for 4 attacks at str6 with reroll wounds, -3/6 ap, and D3/4 damage. It is literally the best melee weapon in the game.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
As attractive as double devourers look, they make your tyrant useless in assault, and since its only 18" range your will find yourself getting assaulted.

ALWAYS take MRC/w toxin sacs.

Its 4 points for 4 attacks at str6 with reroll wounds, -3/6 ap, and D3/4 damage. It is literally the best melee weapon in the game.

Why though? Let them charge. I can overwatch with my 24 shots, then on my turn I can fall back and shoot again, because I'm a flyer. I see zero reason to take half and half. Either go all out hth or all out shooting in my opinion.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
As attractive as double devourers look, they make your tyrant useless in assault, and since its only 18" range your will find yourself getting assaulted.

ALWAYS take MRC/w toxin sacs.

Its 4 points for 4 attacks at str6 with reroll wounds, -3/6 ap, and D3/4 damage. It is literally the best melee weapon in the game.

Why though? Let them charge. I can overwatch with my 24 shots, then on my turn I can fall back and shoot again, because I'm a flyer. I see zero reason to take half and half. Either go all out hth or all out shooting in my opinion.

B/C MRC are free upgrades.
Also, you can still overwatch with 12 shots, and get to attack in fight phase with 4 attacks, then fall back and shoot 12 shots again, and charge back in and attack again. These MRC do more damage than your overwatch will.

But depending on the target, the MRC may not deal more damage than the 12 shots in the shooting phase.

Both are valid options, depending on what you want the Hive Tyrant to hunt.

Do you guys think my list needs more than 40 termagants as screen or is it too much? I haven't played with screens that often. Also any other suggestions on improvements are appreciated.

 killerpenguin wrote:
Do you guys think my list needs more than 40 termagants as screen or is it too much? I haven't played with screens that often. Also any other suggestions on improvements are appreciated.

Spoiler:

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Tyranids) ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Hive Fleet: Kronos

+ Heavy Support +

Tyrannofex: Rupture Cannon, Stinger Salvo

+ HQ +

Hive Tyrant: Adrenal Glands, Lash Whip and Monstrous Bonesword, Power: Catalyst, Power: Psychic Scream, The Reaper of Obilterax, Toxin Sacs, Two Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Soul Hunger

Neurothrope

+ Elites +

Hive Guard
Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon
Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon
Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon
Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon
Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon
Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon

Hive Guard
Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon
Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon
Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon
Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon
Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon
Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon

+ Troops +

Ripper Swarms: 3x Ripper Swarm

Termagants: 20x Termagant (Fleshborer)

Termagants: 20x Termagant (Fleshborer)

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Tyranids) ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Hive Fleet: Kraken

+ HQ +

Hive Tyrant: Power: Catalyst, Power: The Horror, 2x Two Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Wings

Hive Tyrant: Power: Paroxysm, Power: Psychic Scream, 2x Two Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Wings

+ Troops +

Genestealers: 3x Acid Maw
13x Genestealer: 13x Rending Claws

Genestealers: 3x Acid Maw
13x Genestealer: 13x Rending Claws

Ripper Swarms: 3x Ripper Swarm

Created with BattleScribe

Maybe consider drop the Kronos Hive Tyrant with a Malanthrope? to protect your big gun bugs from those lascannons and plasma firing back at them? Also the Kronos fleet is sounds more about gunline shooting, so the melee Walkrant feels a bit odd.

I also think it might better to have both of those Genestealer squads to be at full 20 models strength. So they can survive better in enemy shooting and retain 4A each longer in the game.