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Well, you can collect mine, i don't mind but only if you get the signature of you saying we're all wrong about the buggies...if/when we are actually proven to be right.

I was saying from the get go. Even before we got a hint at rules for buggies. They will be bad for horde orks. Thus, bad for most players out there. It's no rocket science that you need redundancy. And buggies are a different concept to boy hordes. The only way for them to be used a lot is them getting insane durability in addition to anti-tank potential that tankbustas have.

And i never believed we'd get those. As i've stated before, 70 pts is the point where sag buggy starts to compete with trukk tankbustas. And it costs around 100.

 Jidmah wrote:
I'm going to start collecting all these doomsayer quotes (not just yours) and use them as my signature until the next codex if you are wrong. I still remember people going on rants for pages and pages about how GW ruined boyz in 8th when the indexes dropped.

Well boyz have never BEEN good in 8th ed so...Being least sucky unit out of orks doesn't make them somehow good. Just least sucky out of sucky options.

I was pretty annoyed by The Long War podcast (Ep 170 I think) where they're talking about the buggies and speculating costs. They get to the shokkjump dragsta and basically state that it could really good if its points are "spicy". By that they evidently meant between 60-65 points. Like honestly, what the hell are they on about.

The shokkjump dragsta basically has two lascannons, sure they're shorter range and one point less strength and can cause a mortal wound on yourself. But they can also cause additional mortal wounds on the enemy and with dakkadakkadaka those two shots can actually become 4 shots if you're lucky. Even if you don't think that's fair (I don't know the math) it also has a rokkit launcha (albeit at BS5+) for good measure.

A space marine lascannon is 25 points, 2 of them 50. A space marine is 13 points. They want the buggy to cost the same as a space marine somehow carrying two lascannons. Even though it's far more durable, faster, can teleport and better in close combat.

I really don't understand what argument they were trying to make, cause they certainly didn't verbalize it well. Normally speaking at least Fore has a good grasp of the game

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yucxwk9FnYs
Found the video, they start talking about the dragsta at 40:25, buggies in general a few minutes before that

Well that space marine at least is going to have ablative wounds rather than being easily targeted and taken out by the enemy.

Though yeah 60 pts is way too low. But 100-120 and you won't be able to have multiples of them easily and 1 is taken out easily.

tneva82 wrote:
Well that space marine at least is going to have ablative wounds rather than being easily targeted and taken out by the enemy.

Though yeah 60 pts is way too low. But 100-120 and you won't be able to have multiples of them easily and 1 is taken out easily.

120 I think is going to be a bit rich. At 100 I really think they can work out, would have to try them for a few games but they just might. Obviously as a glass cannon and it certainly shouldn't be your only anti-tank in the army but hopefully it's fast enough to be able to hide away from some of the scary stuff and threaten with a few choice jumps throughout the game.

At 80 I feel that these things are a steal (again, speculation), at 60 they'd be broken. You could bring 9 of them (3 squads of three) for 540 points, that's just insane. At 60 points they'd be cheap enough to use as roadblocks in a bind, just teleport up and turn the base sideways and you've blocked off a huge chunk of the battlefield

PiñaColada wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Well that space marine at least is going to have ablative wounds rather than being easily targeted and taken out by the enemy.

Though yeah 60 pts is way too low. But 100-120 and you won't be able to have multiples of them easily and 1 is taken out easily.

120 I think is going to be a bit rich. At 100 I really think they can work out, would have to try them for a few games but they just might. Obviously as a glass cannon and it certainly shouldn't be your only anti-tank in the army but hopefully it's fast enough to be able to hide away from some of the scary stuff and threaten with a few choice jumps throughout the game.

At 80 I feel that these things are a steal (again, speculation), at 60 they'd be broken. You could bring 9 of them (3 squads of three) for 540 points, that's just insane. At 60 points they'd be cheap enough to use as roadblocks in a bind, just teleport up and turn the base sideways and you've blocked off a huge chunk of the battlefield

With TLOS and size of those buggies speed isn't going to be much of a help. Speed is more of if you deploy on wrong flank you can get within 24" of enemy anyway.

Oh and if you want road block try grot. 60 pts will give you 42" wide roadblock at need That's fun vs foot slogging assault army if you happen to run into one of those rare breeds.

Ork are all about redundancy, you need multiples of any unit to do the job as every unit dies so easily, gw has proved time and again that they just don’t know how to cost ork units properly and I don’t see this changing

Gw have constantly pointed orks as some kind of equivalent to imperial units when they are generally not as good in every respect, I don’t think the inherent problems with orks will be solved by adding 4 new vehicles to the mix, even if one of them is pretty ok on paper.

These buggies at least make mechanised lists more viable, as they contribute to armor saturation while also bringing some much needed reliable anti-tank weapons.

But it's pretty obvious that at 100 and 120pts they'll cost too much to be really competitive by themselves. Their saving grace might be the alleged cost reduction of the Battlewagon : bring 3 Battlewagons, some Trukks and several buggies and some might survive till turn 3...

But why would you need buggies if you would just be ablre to get more tankbustas for at?

To be fair, marines holding lascannons aren't a measure of efficiency.

That said, stat-wise the shockjump dragsta compares well to a landspeeder, blight hauler or a dread/helbrute. All of them clock in around 140 points when armed similarly to the dragsta, and PL7 tells us this one is close by.

 Jidmah wrote:
To be fair, marines holding lascannons aren't a measure of efficiency.

That said, stat-wise the shockjump dragsta compares well to a landspeeder, blight hauler or a dread/helbrute. All of them clock in around 140 points when armed similarly to the dragsta, and PL7 tells us this one is close by.

No, sure. Although I'd argue marines with lascannons are one of the more decent thing in that codex. Also, the dragsta is PL6 (thankfully), only the squigbuggy is PL7. PL6 would still mean between 110-130 points logically. Which is almost guaranteed to be too much in any sort of competitive environment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:


With TLOS and size of those buggies speed isn't going to be much of a help. Speed is more of if you deploy on wrong flank you can get within 24" of enemy anyway.

Oh and if you want road block try grot. 60 pts will give you 42" wide roadblock at need That's fun vs foot slogging assault army if you happen to run into one of those rare breeds.

I meant as a roadblock somewhere far away on the battlefield, where the grot force couldn't reach. Say your opponent needs to grab an objective and you'd jump that to block off the best path. Niche I know, but the point was that at 60 points that wouldn't even be a waste to tie up in CC really

I think any success to be had with orks will highly depend on stratagems and objectives, while it’s pretty obvious that the orks units themselves won’t undergo many changes, if the objectives are easy to achieve and the stratagems are effective at letting us achieve them then orks will improve as an army.

I’ve been back and forth with this release but orks literally can’t be worse than the current index rules.

PiñaColada wrote:
I meant as a roadblock somewhere far away on the battlefield, where the grot force couldn't reach. Say your opponent needs to grab an objective and you'd jump that to block off the best path. Niche I know, but the point was that at 60 points that wouldn't even be a waste to tie up in CC really

That's what da jump is good for. You are going to have weirdboys anyway. I have been doing that one for months.


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Guyver 3 wrote:
I’ve been back and forth with this release but orks literally can’t be worse than the current index rules.

Oh yes they can. The only unit that wasn't automatic turn 2-3 wipeout already got nerfed to oblivion so now it's question of did any other unit get boosted sufficiently to replace them.

I honestly don't see 7 ppm boyz as such a severe nerf. Remember, they also got better rules and strategems.

 koooaei wrote:
I honestly don't see 7 ppm boyz as such a severe nerf. Remember, they also got better rules and strategems.

So did every other unit. For GW those are 0 pts. Gap between codex orks and codex-whatever increased compared to index ork vs index-whatever.

Also many of those traits etc only matter if you get into close combat. Orks didn't get there before being blown apart by 60+ model shooting gunlines when they cost 6 pts. They won't make there now either. Especially as the traits aren't even helping there that much. 6++. Hah. Not nearly enough(especially when you just lost almost 16% of your boyz). Orks often enough had 5++ anyway. 6+++ isn't much better and again something that a) they had before anyway b) is negated by multitudes of multi damage weapons anyway.

If you want boyz one token unit for deep strike strategem is enough and even there probably are better options. Gorkanaut might actually be worth taking with that so why waste good strategem on bad boyz.

Also new ork players are hit by double nerf. 7ppm boyz and 32mm bases.

 koooaei wrote:
But why would you need buggies if you would just be ablre to get more tankbustas for at?

The dragsta shoots just as good as tank bustas when not aiming at vehicles, it will not be lose half its shooting when shot at by intercessors, is twice as fast as tank bustas and can rapidly redeploy to the other side of the board to grab objectives, shoot better targets or hide from destruction. It's better in combat as well.

Unless we are talking tankbustas in a trukk, in which case they will do only .8 more wounds against vehicles and less against any other targets - assuming dragsta is 140 points and the trukk will go down by 20%.

It's definitely a worthwhile side-grade.

By the way, does anybody know the type of bases the bikes come with in the Speed Freeks box? I think I'll rebase my bikes and GW don't seem to mention it in the description of the box..

Is it these: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Citadel-75-46-Oval-Bases (75x42mm)
These: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Citadel-90-52-Oval-Bases (90x52mm)
or these: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Citadel-60-35-Oval-Bases (60x35mm)

PiñaColada wrote:
No, sure. Although I'd argue marines with lascannons are one of the more decent thing in that codex. Also, the dragsta is PL6 (thankfully), only the squigbuggy is PL7. PL6 would still mean between 110-130 points logically. Which is almost guaranteed to be too much in any sort of competitive environment.

Oh right, it's just PL6, even better, which means they are cheaper than other, similar things that are borderline competitive

I personally think both the squigbuggy and the snazzwagon are a lost case already, no matter what they cost and what strategems they get unless they have some aura we don't know of yet. They are simply yet another anti-infantry platform in an army that has never had any issue slaughtering infantry.

 Jidmah wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
But why would you need buggies if you would just be ablre to get more tankbustas for at?

The dragsta shoots just as good as tank bustas when not aiming at vehicles, it will not be lose half its shooting when shot at by intercessors, is twice as fast as tank bustas and can rapidly redeploy to the other side of the board to grab objectives, shoot better targets or hide from destruction. It's better in combat as well.

Unless we are talking tankbustas in a trukk, in which case they will do only .8 more wounds against vehicles and less against any other targets - assuming dragsta is 140 points and the trukk will go down by 20%.

It's definitely a worthwhile side-grade.

That is indeed close to a sidegrade. However, it's still in favor of tankbustas
Assuming they don't get a nerf.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean just think about it. 120 pts. For 8 t6 4+ armored wounds. That's like 3 times easier to kill than a venom.

PiñaColada wrote:
By the way, does anybody know the type of bases the bikes come with in the Speed Freeks box? I think I'll rebase my bikes and GW don't seem to mention it in the description of the box..

Is it these: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Citadel-75-46-Oval-Bases (75x42mm)
These: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Citadel-90-52-Oval-Bases (90x52mm)
or these: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Citadel-60-35-Oval-Bases (60x35mm)

Based on what we know, old biker bases.
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Painting-Modelling?N=3815391097+999874356&Nr=AND%28sku.siteId%3AGB_gw%2Cproduct.locale%3Aen_GB_gw%29&Nrs=collection%28%29%2Frecord%5Bproduct.startDate+%3C%3D+1540212900000+and+product.endDate+%3E%3D+1540212900000%5D
I think they re the 75X 42's.
And...
These might be good for the price.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/263051096955
I plan to better base my bikers as well.

And huge bases make it harder to hide and move than trukks.

And tankbustas are not insta dead the moment a truck gets blown away.

My understanding of a game tells me that i'll start considering this shokk buggy at 80 pts. And start thinking they're a worthwhile sidegrade over trukkbustaz at 70.

PiñaColada wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Well that space marine at least is going to have ablative wounds rather than being easily targeted and taken out by the enemy.

Though yeah 60 pts is way too low. But 100-120 and you won't be able to have multiples of them easily and 1 is taken out easily.

120 I think is going to be a bit rich. At 100 I really think they can work out, would have to try them for a few games but they just might. Obviously as a glass cannon and it certainly shouldn't be your only anti-tank in the army but hopefully it's fast enough to be able to hide away from some of the scary stuff and threaten with a few choice jumps throughout the game.

At 80 I feel that these things are a steal (again, speculation), at 60 they'd be broken. You could bring 9 of them (3 squads of three) for 540 points, that's just insane. At 60 points they'd be cheap enough to use as roadblocks in a bind, just teleport up and turn the base sideways and you've blocked off a huge chunk of the battlefield

100 points sounds about right really. You get an incredibly quick non-degrading BS3+ Las-Talon with half a missile launcher (because BS5+) on a not-too-incredibly-squishy platform that against a shooty army has a decent chance to be able to hide in CC in T1 with Wartrike support.

tneva82 can you please lay off the "Boyz are useless at 7ppm" mantra already. The codex isn't even out yet.

I find it kinda funny that at 6ppm it's totally worth it to spam boyz and only boyz and at 7ppm they are suddenly utter trash not worth taking at all. A one point difference taking a model from autoinclude to never-include. Hyperbole at its finest.

 Weazel wrote:
tneva82 can you please lay off the "Boyz are useless at 7ppm" mantra already. The codex isn't even out yet.

I find it kinda funny that at 6ppm it's totally worth it to spam boyz and only boyz and at 7ppm they are suddenly utter trash not worth taking at all. A one point difference taking a model from autoinclude to never-include. Hyperbole at its finest.

to be fair, it happened to conscripts. Alongside a comi nerf

 koooaei wrote:

 Weazel wrote:
tneva82 can you please lay off the "Boyz are useless at 7ppm" mantra already. The codex isn't even out yet.

I find it kinda funny that at 6ppm it's totally worth it to spam boyz and only boyz and at 7ppm they are suddenly utter trash not worth taking at all. A one point difference taking a model from autoinclude to never-include. Hyperbole at its finest.

to be fair, it happened to conscripts. Alongside a comi nerf

Yes but guardsmen are so similar troops only better. Can the same be said about gretchins really? They dont even have the same battlefield role

I think that 7 ppm will even out with clan traits (obviously not all but still) and will get on the better part with strategems. Regenning 30 boyz and outflanking them is really powerful. So is getting an extra deepstriking squad.

Our lists will have less boyz, thst's true, but not that much less if you come to think about the trukk point reduction.

Another thing is that we might actually get more grots either to get more cp to regen more boyz and fight twice more often or to use as grot shields. Or both.

Also, we might get a couple useful magic powers to make boyz better.

 koooaei wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
But why would you need buggies if you would just be ablre to get more tankbustas for at?

The dragsta shoots just as good as tank bustas when not aiming at vehicles, it will not be lose half its shooting when shot at by intercessors, is twice as fast as tank bustas and can rapidly redeploy to the other side of the board to grab objectives, shoot better targets or hide from destruction. It's better in combat as well.

Unless we are talking tankbustas in a trukk, in which case they will do only .8 more wounds against vehicles and less against any other targets - assuming dragsta is 140 points and the trukk will go down by 20%.

It's definitely a worthwhile side-grade.

That is indeed close to a sidegrade. However, it's still in favor of tankbustas
Assuming they don't get a nerf.

I assume that the single tank bustas go up in points so they end up costing the same after rokkits (and maybe their other weapons) going down. Free tank hammers would be nice.

Also note that the buggy is vastly superior when shooting daemon primarchs, greater daemons or tyranids as tank bustas don't get re-rolls against those. They also do slightly better when shooting multi-wound infantry or bikes, but the difference is very small due to d6 damage having a chance to not kill a model where D3 does not.

We also have kmk. Not sure how to compare them as kmk's best part are character grots.

 koooaei wrote:
And huge bases make it harder to hide and move than trukks.

And tankbustas are not insta dead the moment a truck gets blown away.

My understanding of a game tells me that i'll start considering this shokk buggy at 80 pts. And start thinking they're a worthwhile sidegrade over trukkbustaz at 70.

You might want to do that math on that. Trukk went from 5 PL to 3, so let's assume points go down by the same ratio to 49. So 12 tankbustas in a trukk are 253, two shockjump dragsta are probably in the same point range.

12 rokkits
vs VEHICLE (T7/3+)
6.66 hits, 4.44 wounds, 2.96 x 3 damage = 8.88 damage
vs other
4 hits, 2.66 wounds, 1.77 x 3 damage = 5.31 damage
Big shoota
1 hit, .33 wounds, .11 x 1 damage

2 kustom shokk rifles
2.66 hits, 1.77 wounds, 1.48 x d6 damage = 5.18 damage
2 rokkits
.66 hits, .44 wounds, .30 x 3 damage = .90 damage

Total: Tankbustas do 8.99 damage vs VEHICLES and 5.42 damage against anything else. Dragstas deal 6.08 damage against everything.

At 80 points you would get three dragstas that deal 9.12 damage to everything and make tank bustas obsolete because they cost more and deal less damage.


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Also don't forget that you can field both tank bustas in trukks and buggies at the same time. My opponents have no issues taking out two trukks turn 1 and wiping my tank bustas by turn 2.

I would aim for a setup with shokkjump dragstas (and/or scrapjets), KMB and trukkbustas, combined with some planes, a morkanaut and BW with nobz or boyz. They will not be able to kill everything before it hits them.

I think in general Dreadnoughts and equivalents should be in the 100-120 point range, not in the 140-150 they are now bassed in equipement.

Buggies, Land Speeders, etc... should be more in the 90-100 point range.