In an all out total war who would win ??? Orks VS Imperium. Vote now !!!

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Lord_Lockhart**

Allright here is the scenario for this massive undertaking so no loopholing

1: everyone else decided to leave today and went to the next galaxy,
-besides all orks and all the forces of the imperium and the current inhabitants of both civs-

2: chaos gods are still around just their demons and marines have also left, warp is also still ok

3: this is total war,nothing one on one on a planet, this is a war in between races

4: no multiple votes! if you have a second account or not please do not vote twice

5: and for any of you true, lore less, men out there; with imperium i do include the Astartes

6: with, war between races, i do not say that orks immediately start off as a united faction, but are in their current state for the start of this war.

7: this is too the death of the other race!!!! or too such an extent that the other race has the abilty to supress the other into a unsignificant threat

like how we dont care about grizzly bears(near extinct animals), your just scared when you go camping.

Vote

If looking for opinions there is already a thread started (where of course my idea for a poll started)

Edit: for a improvement in the outline of the scenario

**LunaHound**

If Orks decide to stop fighting each other till every single emperium men is dead , Ork would win.

Atttrition alone Orks would win , they repopulate fast , grow faster , get stronger genetically the tougher their enemy gets ( same goes for meks and teknology )

For every Imperium Titan that falls , its lost for ever due to the lost technology , and in its place a new gargaunt / stompas are born.

for every Imperium Terminator destroyed , its gone for ever.

for every Imperium Marine killed , if seed is not harvested , its 1 less Marine created.

Imperium would go extinct too fast....

**Orkeosaurus**

If by "war between races" you mean the orks are working together as a race against humanity, they win.

**Lord_Lockhart**

no i meant that if orks today only had the imperium as an enemy left and they were still in there current state

(so empire would have massive upper hand till later when a massive waagh would eventually form)

ill edit that in there too

**Orkeosaurus**

Ah. Probably should have voted Imperium then. At least in the context of taking more of the galaxy.

**1hadhq**

Imperium wins.

Because:
( insignium astartes page 4 )
Space Marines are....., armed with the most powerful weapon of all: an unshakable faith in the righteousness of their missionand in the Emperor.

**Lord_Lockhart**

no way imperium eventually stops beause there too chicken to go where they cant see the beacon and then some huge waagh comes up out of the other side of space says

da boyz are here now. we waz late.

and then over runs the empire with 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 orks

**1hadhq**

Lord_Lockhart wrote:no way imperium eventually stops beause there too chicken to go where they cant see the beacon and then some huge waagh comes up out of the other side of space says

da boyz are here now. we waz late.

and then over runs the empire with 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 orks

Since we found in another thread that 400 space marines can beat *millions* of orks, how many orks would die from 1.000.000 SM
unleashed on them?

Orks lack also any directed warp travel, so your few orks wouldn't be here but anywhere else.

If that doesnt cut it for you, i may assume something winning the war for the imperium in the same way you created this insane number of illusionary orks, so i " invent" 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 vortex missiles and sent all your orks into the warp where they will battle with the demons forever and never return.

**Demogerg**

I voted imperium.

1. Better Space Navy
2. Exterminatus.
3. ???
4. Profit.

**Lord_Lockhart**

allright 1hadhq

your point is understandable but yeaa its still just the number game really isnt it, orks can afford to run a line of 1000 orks at you and have each one take a some bullets and die but if they get in cc, even sm have trouble with orks in cc, you die and the guy behind you dies and that guy and there just more and more without continued range support you will die to orks in cc

**Silverthorne**

Lord_Lockhart wrote:

7: this is too the death of the other race!!!! or too such an extent that the other race has the abilty to supress the other into a unsignificant threat like how we dont care about grizzly bears(near extinct animals), your just scared when you go camping.

That is getting sigged. 'Scared when you go camping' --classic.

I don't agree that orks reproduce faster at all. We know that the spores take 'a long time' to grow. And that only a small percent are actually grown in to orks, and that the ratio of spores released to type of ork grown can't be manipulated. It is set. Plus, the large, combatant class of orks takes the longest time to grow of all types.

I consider 'a long time' to be at least a year, or nearly a year. Which would mean humans reproduce FASTER than orks. Additionally, humans can radically increase their rate of reproduction. Women, even with today's by comparison crude technology, can safely have 8 children in one litter with no ill effects. These can even be manipulated, so that all 8 will be boys. With the tech that we have today. I don't think it is any stretch to imagine the crazy future tech of 40k (in addition to current trends) making women more fertile, and decreasing the length of human gestation. A VERY conservative estimate would be 6 son litter in 6.5 months on fortress planets which are set up to 'breed' soldiers. More likely 5 sons and 1 daughter.

This doesn't even get into technology that is mentioned in passing in the background, like the Vita-Wombs of Krieg, where thousands of soldiers are born a day.

So if you assume that every woman on worlds optimized for this (Cadia, Krieg, etc) is getting pregnant at 12 (which is a little on the high side, considering again, current trends and future technology, I would really say closer to 10) and then produced 1-2 litters a year of 5 soldiers and a daughter until, say 35, every woman produces well over 200 hundred male offspring, as well as 46 females who each produce a further ~250 each. Over two generations that is every single woman producing well over 11,000 troops. I very highly doubt that Orks are getting those sort of numbers from their spores on a per-beast status. Set up like that, every single birth mother will have produced a reinforced guard regiment by time she is 40 (counting grand children, but not great grandchildren). That is insanely good. And Orks aren't capable of that.

Orks mitigate this slightly because of their faster growth rate ( I would assume after about 3-4 years and Ork is dangerous, it would be at least 12 for a Human), but this is in turn busted up because so much of their next generation is vulnerable. They are growing and raising their young in the combat zone, so their infant mortality is going to be light years beyond that of humans. Whereas human population centers and breeding areas can be fortified and made impregnable (hehehe) Orks can't do that, and can loose a whole generation if a couple special weapon squads happen across a spore patch. Since their troops live their whole life cycle on the front line, this is a major problem.

Finally- this has happened before. When humanity didn't have Chaos on it's back it was ripping through Ork empires left, right, and center. There is a precedent for this, and in it, the Orks loose. Huge. All sorts of unspeculated things start occuring when you remove all other forces. Without fighting chaos constantly the Imperium is made immeasurably strong. The recovery of the emperor is even possible under those conditions. I like orks, but as someone mentioned on the other thread, they aren't really built to take on the imperium- they were weapons to be wielded by the Old Ones. Without their guidance, they really don't have a prayer against the Imperium.

**Lord_Lockhart**

@silverthorne

orks release 1000000 of spores throughout life and upon death as well so when you kill an ork and dont burn it it makes at least 100 orks(required conditions) that are capable of fighting in a year (all lore i have read makes me assume that orks are combat ready the second they are borne there are no ork infants just smaller orks- still 8 ft tall muscled killers)

as for your crazy birth mothers stuff how many eggs does a woman have if you say menopause happens at fifty and she started at 10 losing an avergae one egg month for 40 years thats 12 times 40 which is 480 children ok add 20, 500 children max with increased litters

and while true the main forces of chaos are gone, the gods do remain and are still there to practice there intents in new subjects creating a tension in imperial forces probably quite quickly.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
andd ohh yeaa thanks for the complement on the scared when you go camping

**Xav**

Please stop this, there has already been a thread for this and we dont need another one. Its gonna end the same way, the Imperials say Imperium and the Orks say the Orks, no-one is going to decide.

**1hadhq**

Lord_Lockhart wrote:allright 1hadhq

orks can afford to run a line of 1000 orks at you and have each one take a some bullets and die but if they get in cc, even sm have trouble with orks in cc, you die and the guy behind you dies and that guy and there just more and more without continued range support you will die to orks in cc

Did i provide an example where a few hundred marines ( CF ) handed a ot of your "line of 1000 orks" their asses?
So we have 2500x400 marines. Ends in 2.500 times more dead orks than on Rynns world.

Additionally, you dont know me but assume orks stand a chance in CC against me

Maybe we should throw into this debate the difference between background and the game.

In the game, orks kill a lot of opponents.
In the background, all depends on the author. If he wants to have a single space marine slay hundreds of orks, then you either accept it or stop reading that book.

Lets apply some logic.
Everyone ( almost all orks or humans ) carries a shooty weapon.
This has a reason. Maybe CC isn't the deciding factor in a battle?
Could it be that the "shooting" kills far more than hacking and slashing ?
Maybe those illustrations with cramped masses of combattants are just GW typical imagery.
Would it not make more sense to drop some tactical nukes ( or any other nasty weapon of mass destruction) on those masses than fight them?

**Lord_Lockhart**

thats why there is a poll, i want to see the majority opinion.

hope you didnt just view and actually voted

**Emperors Faithful**

Dammit! Sorry, I missed the first post. It's gonna be imperium all the way. Orks AREN'T united, therefore, they WILL be pawned!

GLORY TO THE GOD-EMPEROR!!!!!!!!!!

**Orkeosaurus**

1hadhq wrote:
Would it not make more sense to drop some tactical nukes ( or any other nasty weapon of mass destruction) on those masses than fight them?

Men are cheaper than bombs.

Also, that million-billion percent population growth stuff is silly.

Hive Worlds are already overpopulated, the Imperium is not held back by their birth rate.

**Silverthorne**

Where does it say that orks release one million spores throughout their lifespan and upon death? It doesn't. We know they release spores (mostly upon death) but there isn't any place where it says how many. Where does it say that 'it makes at least 100 orks'? It doesn't- you are just making crap up dude. Again, it doesn't say anywhere how long Orks are immature after birth, you are ASSUMING it is a year. Fair enough, but an assumption none the less. Your claim that each one breeds 100 orks is, I'm sad to say, completely ridiculous. Nowhere in the established cannon do you see a number like that. This is the problem that the other thread had also- I'm showing very clearly how each human woman could EASILY produce 276 children. You are just pulling numbers out of the air. Nowhere does it say that every ork KIA results in 100 new orks. Nowhere. Even if it did, which it doesn't, that is still loosing out to Humans by 37ish offspring each (you have to divide humans' gross by 2 since only one partner produces offspring). So even with your completely made up numbers, you still loose. By an entire platoon worth of troops.

Also- I think you are confused about how pregnancy and menopause work. First off, I never claimed a woman would have 500 children. I claimed less than half of that. Basically a woman, no matter how many children and pregnancies she ever has, can't run out of eggs. Women have THOUSANDS of eggs. Additionally, I put women's fertility ending at 35, not 50, like you say. Plus- women don't ovulate when pregnant and these women would be pregnant at essentially all times. I don't get your point, you are trying to say that I am wrong by doubling the estimated number of children a woman would have produced. You say 500 kids, I say 270 ish. You just aren't grasping the logarithmic expansion that occurs when most of a female population is having that many children. Within 20 years, you are looking at tens of thousands of direct offspring. It was a long paragraph, look over it again maybe.

EDIT-- The birth rate stuff I'm putting in here to show that Orks do not have some massive built in numerical superiority to humans. It is silly because Humans already have more than enough bodies to kill off all the Orks. But if they didn't, it wouldn't matter. Human birthrates can be scaled up to insane rates, as I have just demonstrated. Is it necessary? No- but I have to mention it since there are people claiming there are 'hundreds of trillions' of orks, and that each ork produces 'at least 100 orks'.

Creating tension in Imperial Forces? What are you talking about? Even if they exist- you stipulate the conflict is exclusively between Orks and Humans- so no SM, no Crazy demonically fueled things, etc.

**1hadhq**

Orkeosaurus wrote:
Men are cheaper than bombs.

Sure?

All those expensive vehicles and when it comes to bombs, its not affordable?

**Orkeosaurus**

Not literally in the cost of the bombs themselves, but in the cost of using and maintaining the weaponry, and otherwise trying to meet their objectives with bombs, yes.

That's why it isn't Bombhammer 40k.

**KingCracker**

Demogerg wrote:I voted imperium.

1. Better Space Navy
2. Exterminatus.
3. ???
4. Profit.

Those few reasons are just ridiculous. They use that on ANY army they face now, and they still loose depending on who and where. If it were just Orks, on jsut Imperium, the Imperium would be completely destroyed.

The only reason the Orks are so scattered now is because there is SO many others to fight with. It was suddenly just the Imperium in our gaze, then a mighty warboss would bring all the Orks together nd hulk smash them into bits. Thats the way we Orks work. Then we would go back to inter fightings

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also to SilverThorne. Its in the Ork fluff that there is an uncountable number of Orks in the Universe.FAR beyond what the Imperium can even pretend to know. Infact it also says that as far as the Imperium have sent out becons to search past their empire, all they found were Orks.
The Ork population is WAY more then mankind. Thats ALSO fluff. Im not sure where your pulling YOUR gak out of, but im guessing its air as well.

**Silverthorne**

Uncountable? How do you figure? Because probes sent into deep space return primarily Ork chatter? That proves precisely nothing. Do you know the only thing our probes in deep space send back? Human chatter. Does that mean that humans have colonized every world in the galaxy? No. Nice try.

The Ork population IS greater than mankind's. I never argued against that. The Orks DO control more territory than mankind. I never argued against that either. Your entire post is a straw-man attack. You go after a joke post like it is a legit discussion, and then you say that I make claims which I do not. Weak.

My gak? Oh, like how I explain EXACTLY, with reasonable numbers and modest scientific expectations of a society 40 thousand years in the future, how humans could be extremely prolific? I guess that can't ever be as good as an argument as 'OMG there are hundreds of trillions of orks! each one has one million spores at least and 100 babies! I can't show any reference to that but every body knows its true!!!1!OMG!'

My 'gak'. Show me how what I said was unreasonable. Go ahead. I'll wait. Try a logical deconstruction of what I said, rather than making up lies and then attacking them, hoping no one will notice that no one made the argument you are fighting against.

**Orkeosaurus**

Silverthorne wrote:EDIT-- The birth rate stuff I'm putting in here to show that Orks do not have some built in numerical superiority to humans. It is silly because Humans already have more than enough bodies to kill off all the Orks. But if they didn't, it wouldn't matter. Human birthrates can be scaled up to insane rates, as I have just demonstrated. Is it necessary? No- but I have to mention it since there are people claiming there are 'hundreds of trillions' of orks, and that each ork produces 'at least 100 orks'.

I guess that works as a demonstration of maximum birthrates, but it doesn't really prove population growth, as you've pretty much ignored every other logistic. How do a mother and father feed their 200 children? They can't, not with the capabilities afforded to an average citizen of the Imperium.

Also, if you only went by birthrate, here's a counter-example:

An ork dies, and releases spores that create "dozens of cocoons". A good number will turn into orks; let's say that this number is "9".

Now, in a year, there are 9 new yoofs (a year is actually enough for them to be "thriving quite easily"). As soon as the year's up they're killed (because like the humans, they've for some reason decided that birthrate is everything). Each one produces 9 more orks.

Year two: 81 orks

Year three: 729 orks

Year four: 6,561 orks

Year five: 59,049 orks

Year Ten: 3,486,784,401 orks

Year Forty: 1.478088 x 10^38 orks.

Thus, we can determine that neither faction is currently held back by their maximum birthrate, nor is that likely to occur in the future.

**metallifan**

There was already a thread on this topic. Shouldn't spam up the forums with multiple threads about the same topic.

**Silverthorne**

@ Orkeosaurus-- are your quoted parts from the latest Ork codex? I just don't see them on the thread, so that is my assumption.

I agree with what you are saying- depopulating the other side isn't going to be what wins for either force. I mean, is it ever? Virtually no wars are one because everyone on the other side is dead.

Do SM have to die before their geneseed is removed? I remember their being 2, one that can be taken out whenever and keep regrowing over time, and one that is only removed when they die. I mention it because either way, the SM reproduce in a sort of Orkoid fashion, which I think is sort of interesting.

I feel that the Orks get hurt more by territorial loss than the Humans do- because if a planet is lost you can, I feel, pretty much write off that entire next generation of yoofs that were created by the fighting.

Conversely, I think the Humans are affected more profoundly by material losses. Orks don't really have any irreplaceable gear, but Humans have things that, while replaceable, aren't practical to replace. Like Psi-Titans and stuff like that.

So I think that this question essentially comes down to who will be able to inflict damage on the enemies most essential capacities at the faster rate. I feel like that situation favors the Imperium, personally, since the Orks' is manpower (orkpower?) which is created on the frontline, while the Imperium's is materiel, which is created in safe, heavily fortified regions.

Finally, the Imperium is just more prepared for war on a massive scale than the Orks are. It is a monolithic organization with a clear chain of command and existing logistical supply lines. Orks don't really have that, which is why WAAAAAAAAGHs typically burn out or don't hold the worlds that they have conquered for a particularly long time.

**Lord_Lockhart**

@metallifan i made this poll to see the majority opinion of that discussion

@silverthrone ok good points but umm im not sure which one it is but the i think the ig omnibus with three different tales of ig saoldier has a short story right after 15 hours that has a ig squad find a spore field and thats where i got my numbers from but orkeosaurus does prove a point birthrate is not the problem

its that birthrate of orks combined with more orks means more orks than humans and that is just cold hard logic
if you have more than someone and are producing at the same rate, and your product will make more of what you have, then you will out produce. Not to mention the fact that orks take a lot less longer than a human to develop after birth as a 12 year old is not the same as a 12 year old ork by any means and the fact that males do not reproduce while all members of orky society do

Automatically Appended Next Post:
@silverthrone last post is very convncing but the probelm is that orks essentially never would run out of thier main advantage orkpower while man would and could run out of materials if you start to mess with logistal ships that bring essential items like weapons to and fro and its very likely that orks in there lets kill everything attitude would eventually do

Automatically Appended Next Post:
and also the thing is yes orks would take a huge loss with a loss of planet, but it is firmly stated in lore that totally eradicating orks from any planet is almost imposible and because of that the imperium would always have to leave some force behind to protect there new found territory, while orks could essentially move on and lets their spores do the defending

**Orkeosaurus**

Silverthorne wrote:@ Orkeosaurus-- are your quoted parts from the latest Ork codex? I just don't see them on the thread, so that is my assumption.

Yeah, page 11.

I agree with what you are saying- depopulating the other side isn't going to be what wins for either force. I mean, is it ever? Virtually no wars are one because everyone on the other side is dead.

And population is based on quite a bit besides birthrate, I might add.

Do SM have to die before their geneseed is removed? I remember their being 2, one that can be taken out whenever and keep regrowing over time, and one that is only removed when they die. I mention it because either way, the SM reproduce in a sort of Orkoid fashion, which I think is sort of interesting.

Yes, I believe that's how geneseed works.

I feel that the Orks get hurt more by territorial loss than the Humans do- because if a planet is lost you can, I feel, pretty much write off that entire next generation of yoofs that were created by the fighting.

I can see ork populations as being closer to the world they're on, so I'd probably agree.

Conversely, I think the Humans are affected more profoundly by material losses. Orks don't really have any irreplaceable gear, but Humans have things that, while replaceable, aren't practical to replace. Like Psi-Titans and stuff like that.

True, a lot of what the Imperium has is what's been built up over millennia.

So I think that this question essentially comes down to who will be able to inflict damage on the enemies most essential capacities at the faster rate. I feel like that situation favors the Imperium, personally, since the Orks' is manpower (orkpower?) which is created on the frontline, while the Imperium's is materiel, which is created in safe, heavily fortified regions.

Orks do shed spores throughout their life even without combat, so I'm not sure that the majority of the ork population would be born on the front line.

Finally, the Imperium is just more prepared for war on a massive scale than the Orks are. It is a monolithic organization with a clear chain of command and existing logistical supply lines. Orks don't really have that, which is why WAAAAAAAAGHs typically burn out or don't hold the worlds that they have conquered for a particularly long time.

If we're not talking about a hypothetical unification of the orks, they have much further divisions than that. Even nobs under one warboss distrust each other, most nobs aren't even really under the command of a warboss. They're hugely divided, and even if they happen to have similar goals they're not going to work well with each other without some sort of outside intervention. Without that unification, they're less than the sum of their parts.

Plus, there's the general impatience and boredom that comes from not being particularly dedicated to their specific cause. And the fact that the greater the stakes are the more the individual leaders want it for themselves.

**Index85**

The Orks would probably win, simply due to the fact that the Empire suffers from a horrible bureaucracy. After a long drawn out fight which it is sure to be facing when fighting the Orks, the inhabitants of a planet will eventually start to run out of supplies.

Orks dont really suffer from this problem as when they run low on food they just eat a squig, Grot, or Smaller Ork, which then release spores which creates more mushrooms, squigs, grots and orks. Spores arent only released when an Ork dies, they are released when any type of orkoid creature dies. If a Squiggoth died it would probably release Billions of spores and every one of those has a chance of either becoming food, for lack of a better term some form of 'support staff', or an able bodied battle ready ork.

When it comes to vehicles the mekboys have that knowledge genetically coded in them selves to build almost anything if they get 'insperation' from something, so they will always be able to build vehicles. If they are able to survive an attack from an Imperial super weapon the mekboys will probably get inspiration to build an orky version for them selves. How do you think Killa Kans and Gargants were designed, a mek boy wanted to build an orky version of a dreadnaught and titan respectively. Also any vehicle the Impirium loses to the orks that isnt completely oliterated, has the chance of becoming a looted vehicle for the Orks. While orks are able to use human technology with a little trial and error, it cant be said to work in reverse, as a lot of ork technology only works because they believe it works.

The best way the Imperial Forces could fight the Orks is if they just curled up in a ball and let the orks hit them when they showed up, as this would be a boring fight for the orks and they would just continue to fight amongst themselves.

... But then again im drunk right now. mmm rum.

WAAAAGHH!!!

**Xav**

Stompas and other big Ork things were made in The Mighty Gork and Morks image. I dont see how the Imperials will curl up into a ball with a million space marines on there way.
But those who say the Imperium is organised are kidding themselves, the space marines are split into a thousand little factions each with its own beliefs.
The Imperial guard commanders are EPIC fail. If anyone has read legion, i believe the Guard commander in Legion was going to bomb half a legion and a primarch(s) cause he didnt get any glory, they suffer from being human. They get jealous etc, and that could lead to catostropic fail for the Imperium.

**Emperors Faithful**

Who did you vote for Xav? You seemed a staunch xeno-lover before...*scowl suspiciously*

Also, compared to orks, Imperium is WAY united. And a little guard throwing a tantrum is nothing compared to what orks do for the hell of it.