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I havent played more than a handfull of games casualy, dont yet have an army and dont know what works.

With this in mind I have a few questions for those people who know their stuff:#

1) I write up an army list. How do I tell if it is good?

I presume I need some anti tank, some anti infantry and some kind of plan. How much of each do I need?

When I look at an entry in a codex how do I tell if it is good value without 30+ games testing?

Do I need separate things for "heavy infantry"? Things like space marines or other armoured stuff. Can I get by with lots of firepower and high AP weapons or do I need a more specific response?

Do I want to do without some kind of unit? If I have no tanks then I have wasted my opponents spending on anti tank weapons for example.

Do I have to be able to destroy the heaviest tanks or can I get by trying to glancing hit them to incapacitate them?



On more specific questions for competative play:

What is the most comon size army for play?
Are there standard amounts/types of scenery that have to be used?
What missions are used?
How many objectives get used (if any)?
Do competitions use night fighting rules?

At the moment I am looking at a Tryanid list (1000 pts) :
[HQ
1 Broodlord (70)
Toxin sacs (10)
Flesh hooks (3)

+ Brood of genestealers
Scything talons 4
Toxin sacs 3
Flesh hooks 1
24 pts per model, 6 models (144)]*2

Troops
6 genestealers (96)
6 genestealers (96)
7 genestealers (96)


Elites
1 lictor brood (3X 80=240)

Will this work? I want to use close combat (obviously) and use the deep strike/infiltration to avoid crossing the fire arcs of my opponents. The basic troops are for reserve duty, coming on when I want them with the help of the lictors abilities. Depending on setup I could stick the lictors by broodlords to use the feeding tendrils biomorph. I wory about the terrain being too restrictive to make these viable (needing to set up in area terrain). Flesh hooks are in case a prime target sets up in cover.

I hope that sheer number of attacks, rending and toxin sacs coupled with access to vehicles rear armour will get me through tanks.I make it a 43% chance of rending and 52% off the charge for a lictor or 'stealer for a 12+D6 roll vs armor(assuming a hit). This means that the lictor just isnt good enough vs heavy vehicles (although they would have a decent chance of ruining any rhino plans The broodlord + brood would have 22 attacks, 29 on charge so I would hope to rend a few times there.

As a final couple of questions I want to check rules interpretations.

My three lictors are a brood. They behave independantly though. The rules seem to say that a brood is under synapse control if any member is in range. This meant that my lictors could be spread accross the table but as long as I have a broodlord need one of them they are all under control?

I think from a couple of posts here my 2nd hand rules book may be out of date. What now determines strike order in combat and who gets to fight back? This list is based on 4th ed tyranids, is this the latest?

Basicaly I want to know how to design an army (not just copy one).

I also dont know what my oponents could be fielding. Is there an online source that lets me see all the current legal lists?

honestly I may be asking for help in another thread for my army list but right here from what I can tell you army lacks the saves to deal with that few number of wounds. half your army will literally be wiped out a turn unless you get first turn and do real close combat damage. Tyranids need some type of shooting I know this to be true especially to deal with infantry. spinegaunts are always nice and cheep(3 spinegaunts per genestealer) and I like devourer gaunts for their 18inch range and 2 attacks per model

on a more general note, when it comes to figuring out what works before you get a chance to play test consider a few things...

This is a game of chance and statistic married with strategy. you have little control over the dice so your strategy must be sound. You can however help your chances.

Min/maxing: The goal when developing any competitive army list IMO is to min/max the unit. This referes to outfitting the list with the most effective units for the cheapest price to complete a narrow scope of objectives.

rate of fire vs. low AP: When outfitting your army with an arsenal try to decide what is better for you to field. Some armies have an abundance of loaw AP weapons that don't permit the opposing player an armor save. In 5th Ed. there are cover saves everywhere so most players have found high rate of fire weapons that cause the opponent to make many many saves much more effective. Nids are masters at this so keep it in mind.

i have no time to continue but i am sure other dakkaites will take over from where i left off, and probably tell you not to listen to me

Ok so I need to make it more surviveable?

I made assumptions about being able to set up in cover after my opponent set up and hence avoiding a lot of the worst fire.

I can see the Lictors being a liability if there isnt a choice of area cover though.

Spinegaunts seem good value but I am woried about synapse control. If my only two synapse creatures are infiltrating to get as close to the bad guys as posable then anything coming on from the back will be out of control.

I dont quite get the min/max ing thing. I maxed broodlords, lictors then took genestealers to make up the rest. If it doesnt meen this then I dont understand.

Does this mean I should abandon my plan of a deep strike/infiltrate army? There are still some other options:cut lictors for more 'stealers or look at the fast attack choices.

I always thought tyraninds were more close combat than shooty. Genestealers seem especialy vicious in combat (aware that they do need to be alive for this though).

min/maxing refers to each individual unit not the FOC chart. Example: Realizing a Marine player can get a free flamer and MM if they take a 10 man squad is minimum points for max punch... get it?

Stealer Shock is very good. Outflank everything and take the broodlord. I believe the Ymgarl Stealers re-roll misses and rend and have a good save or something...

Carnifexes are great and you can have up to 6! those can be shooty or CC. make sure they have a lot of tuff wounds on them. Give them the 3 plus armor and maximize their attacks by either crushing claws (godfexes) or re-rolling to hit. Check out screamer killers too.

If you want them to shoot make use of pie plate spam as shooting takes less of a detriment by your lack of BS.

Zoanthropes can be very nady as well. Combine their psychic scream with that of a tyrant and now your could have -4 to opponent leadership tests! Imagine opponent with Ld 10 loses combat by 1, they now have to roll under a 5 on 2d6 not to run or suffer 5 fearless wounds...crazy

Tyrants- they rock at whatever you want them to do. Give them a few tyrant guard to suck up wounds and you guarantee that Tyrant is doing exactly what you want.

I am a huge fan of the killyness in the codex even though there are a lot of haters out there.

Mathhammer is a good way. You need to know basic points cost of what you will fight or may fight. Then look at how many points you need to invest to get a kill. Seldom will it be 100% however durability and reusability is key. Meaning some abilities only work once like Rough Rider lances. Mostly it boils down to experience.

Since starting with the new dex and am creating a massive IG spread sheet documenting how many points each unit kills over its cost. If that value is more than 1 then the unit is paying itself off and definately worth it. If it is under 1 then you know it sux.

For multiple units such as LC do not analyze 1 LC squad if you take 3 total up what they kill per game and then divide by the points cost of all 3. Same for infantry cost. It will reduce the amount of errors in your calculations.

You need to know a couple things. Mathhammerr is one of them. If you know the statistical odds of each weapon you would use to kill something, you'll be able to find the one that will perform the best, and use it. Once you know the math, you'll be able to answer that "heavy infantry" question yourself.

As far as knowing how much anti-infantry and anti-tank you need, just look at the Space Marine codex. Do you have enough weapons to kill them if they spam nothing but tanks? Can you fend off an Ork Horde with the same list? That is generally a good indication, and as you get better you'll get a better feel for it.

You need weapons to be able to down heavy tanks. I'm really paranoid about it because I lost one of my first tournements because I went up against 3 Landraiders over the course of 2 games... at 750 points.

When you write a list, make sure to see if you have a plan and weapons to kill any extreme you may meet (hordes of infantry, tons of tanks, fast skimmers). Everything has to be helping each other, and the list as a whole. For example, if you have a squad of Gaunts, but don't have a plan for them or they don't help your other units, then get rid of it. This doesn't mean they need to be the most uber, murderous thing in the game. Without Number Gaunts make great meat shields for your advancing hordes, making them a great contribution even though they don't do anything but die.

EDIT: Oh yes, and most pick-up games you'll play are at 1500. Sometimes 1750 and 1850. My gaming group plays a whole lot of 750 and 1000 point games though, so it is more of how people are in your area.

Ok. Thanks. I am slowly developing my understanding. My problem is now twofold (not trying to detract from the useful comments):

1) Is it worth taking units just to die? I mean they engage an expensive unit in combat for a few turns but die? How much is that worth? If I delay a squat cost X for Y turns what cost is this worth? Obviously this changes if the squad in question is able to otherwise exploit an army weakness.

2) Maxed tanks and Maxed infantry require different solutions. Is it actualy possable to have a favourable gave vs these two extremes? Does this mean that an extreme army is the way to go?

Also back to the other key question: At tournaments what is the scenery set up like?

I like the idea of maths. At least all the stats I learnt will come in useful! With this how do you factor in range? Do you discount short range weapons effectiveness to represent the fewer turns they can fire (as out of range) and to represent them dieing before closing to range.

In a similar manner how do you discount units with lowtoughness/armor that are more vulnerable to dieing before getting to range?

You need a frame of reference for alot of the questions you are asking. Maybe take a gander at what the local gaming/club scene looks like and then you will be able to better figure out what you need.

If everybody plays marines, then you probably don't need to worry about fending off hordes. If everybody plays all infantry armies, then you really don't need to worry about anti-tank. Etc.

Also, the terrain will be dictated by what the gaming club has available, so you can't really know for sure until you see how they play. Some people play on 4x6 boards, others use 4x4, and some people play nothing but megabattles/apocalypse. You'll just have to find out.

There are so many ways to play this game that you have to get a frame of reference before you start basing your army list assumptions.