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So, while reading the recent "Toughest Primarch" thread, I noticed that a few people jokingly voted for a Pheonix Lord rather than a Primarch, which got me thinking...

Who's better at the arts of war? The Primarchs or the Pheonix Lords?

Also, wouldn't it be nice if the Pheonix Lords had as much personality and backstory as the Primarchs?

Um...Phoenix lords are simply not up to the cut of Primarchs. They're just not.

Also, Maugun Ra has a lot of history. (Escaping his home, then going back and saving them from the warp) There's a lot backround info on the Phoenix lords, but most of it is just hinted at. Unless there is an eldar equivalent of Horus Heresy Novels forthcoming I suspect we may remain in the dark.

Let's see here: All of the Phoenix Lords are still alive, most of the Primarchs are dead.

They may not necessarily be better at fighting, but they're sure as heck better at surviving!

But look at it this way: The Phoenix Lords are second to the Avatar in fighting. That means that they're pretty dang good. Of course then again I consider the Avatar being defeated by Marysue Calgar propaganda (and poor writing), same with the whole choking the Avatar business. That sounds kind of dirty.

And personally, I like the Phoenix Lords the way they are. Too much information is just boring and leaves nothing to the imagination. That's why I hate the HH series. It was more fun thinking of what could've happened. Instead, there is a bunch of shoddy writing.

Most of the Primarchs are alive in one form or another.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the Avatar, a Blood Ravens captain killed one of them, they can't be that hard to beat.

Phoenix Lords can be reincarnated by their suits if an an exarch puts it on after the last wearer is killed. The exarchs personality is subsumed into the much stronger personality of the Phoenix Lord.

Phoenix Lords are the pinnacle of Eldar war-making, just as the Primarchs are the pinnacle for humans. Phoenix Lords are, however, exceptional but natural Eldar, whereas the Primarchs are literally super-human. Phoenix Lords thse days have been well and truly nerfed in comparison to their original 2nd Ed incarnations where they were a lot tougher and stronger.

According to fluff alone, I expect the Primarchs would have a slight edge, but the way they nerfed Phoenix Lords, even "modern" Chapter Masters have a chance of beating one, let alone special characters like Lysander & Kantor, and certainly that jumped up twit in charge of the blue marines who reckons he bested an Avatar in hand-to-hand combat. Yeah, right.

(And I was one of the guys who jokingly put Maugan Ra in the Primarch thread)

Vladsimpaler wrote:
But look at it this way: The Phoenix Lords are second to the Avatar in fighting.

In Fulgrim, Fulgrim smashes his hand through a Avatars Skull, its an awesome fight and he totally destroyes it.

Doesn't Fulgrim have the power of the daemon in the sword though at that point?

It doesnt say anywhere that it increased his fighting ablitiy just gave his pleasure through pain and a voice in his head 0.0

Daemon Swords give an addition to fighting ability. Check Realms of Chaos ;-)

Pheonix Lords all the way . But really, they would be so much faster, I would be surprised if a Primarch could even touch them. Also, all these people killing Avatars is kinda annoying, it kinda feels like each GW writer decided they want their particular favourite hero to have killed an avatar by looking at it. They fact that it smiles at melta guns would make you think it would be hot enough that it would be painfull even standing near the thing, much less throttling it, if it even breathes!

Rant over for now

EDIT: Typos

cadbren wrote:As for the Avatar, a Blood Ravens captain killed one of them, they can't be that hard to beat.

Pff. Yeah, according to C.S. Multilaser. There were some idiotic moments in the DoW Omnibus... That was one of the worst.

In an one on one fight, phoenix lords would struggle against Primarchs, because Primarchs were 'built' with every aspect of war in mind, whilst the Phoenix Lords are specialised

Hmm, okay, those are some reasonable arguments. Based on fluff alone, I personally consider the Pheonix Lords to be the Eldar counterparts to the Primarchs, so I'm tempted to believe that they would be at least equal. I don't base my theory on game stats, though. I feel that the Pheonix Lords are woefully underrepresented in the game stats-wise, although I AM glad that they are at least playable.

Anyhoo, while it is true that the Primarchs weren't nearly as specialized as the Pheonix Lords, and could therefore excel in more realms of combat, I have complete faith that if a Pheonix Lord were in a position where he was able to use his unique specialized skills to effect, he would come out on top.

The Pheonix Lords would be faster and more agile, but the Primarchs would pack more punch. And also, rules-wise, Pheonix Lords don't even have an invo. That's going to backfire a lot. A better comparison would probably be who would win?
Pheonix Lord or Super Teched out Chapter Master?

Let's not forget that rules in game mean absolutely nothing when talking about fluff.

If it did, then Space Marines would be a lot better (though I personally disagree with the stance that all Space Marines are ub3r hAx0rZ and can kill 5000 trillion dark eldar with their pinky finger).

Of course, then again so would Chaos Renegades and Legionnaires. So in all, rules =/= fluff. I'm sure that someone has a better example.

The Avatar would be a good example. As a living representation of their god, wouldn't it make sense that it be more powerful?

ACTUALLY: The C'tan are a better example! They should be ridiculously powerful beyond reasoning, seeing as they ARE gods, not just representations. So yeah, fluff doesn't equal rules.

Actually, C'Tan do have very good stats. The Nightbringer is S10 and pretty much kills whatever he hits, but he's slow as gak. They aren't true gods; they are just very powerful formless entities trapped inside material forms. The Chaos, Ork, and Eldar gods are far more powerful than the C'Tan, and that's one reason why they want to seal off the Warp from the material universe.

The Phoenix Lords, OTOH, would be no match for the Primarchs. Primarchs are guys who can take on Greater Daemons, (Sanguinius), destroy Titans (Russ), slay Warbosses much larger than Ghazghkull (Horus), kill full-grown trained Eldar warriors as a baby (Angron), and teleport everything on a planet into the Warp (Magnus).

Okay, I have to admit, that's a pretty good list of accomplishments, right there. I just find it slightly ridiculous that the Eldar, who've been around ages and used to be the most powerful race in the galaxy, don't have some heroes that can match a Primarch... Oh well.

Shelegelah wrote:The Avatar would be a good example. As a living representation of their god, wouldn't it make sense that it be more powerful?

ACTUALLY: The C'tan are a better example! They should be ridiculously powerful beyond reasoning, seeing as they ARE gods, not just representations. So yeah, fluff doesn't equal rules.

You must remember, as it is, these 'gods' are very weakened. (Avatar shattered into many pieces) and C'tan waking from a long slumber.

That's true, yes. But I still think that the fluff doesn't quite match the rules.

Well there are fluff pages, where Space Marines die in droves......

So i guess fluff doesnt even equal fluff. Not in this universe at least.

In the Nec Dex theres Wraiths killing an SM Hero like its no ones bussiness due to their phase rule. In the SM Dex 700 SM kill 10k Necs.

I guess anything out of a Dex is just meant to push that certain faction.

Plus of SM were that good, CSM would slaughter em every single time. 10k of battle experience trumps 1k years. And 1k years is regarded superold for loyalist SM.


In regards to Fluff doesnt match Rules. Theres just way too much. Cause in the Rules Pedro Kantor dies to a single mob of Orks, in the fluff he slaughters em.

Plus anything that has rules to put it on the playing field is toned down. Deathstrikes, ICBMs hitting something 2 Assault rifles ranges away? Check.

And before im gonna be only destructive.

If the Pheonix Lords didnt have rules, i guess they would be considered mostly equal to Primarchs. Primarchs are still that, human. Implanting a set of well implants doesnt make them Superhuman. Cause where do you draw the line? Doping eg for the Tour de France (i like to call it the wolrds biggest show of pharmaceutical power) makes you achieve stuff unable for a normal human. Theres stuff which you can achieve with training "Being very fast", and ten theres stuff which needs external help "achieving an olympic record currently".

I'm going to say Primarchs would take the day, with only a little trouble.

I think one hint may be that while Phoenix Lords have in game rules, Primarchs do not...

Dead Stuff cant have rules......

They aren't all dead.

Or haven't you heard?

And besides, Eldrad disagrees with you.

Alpharius wrote:They aren't all dead.

And besides, Eldrad disagrees with you.

Eldrad dead too


But seriouly whats better: Pheonix Lord or Avatar?

Vladsimpaler wrote:
They may not necessarily be better at fighting, but they're sure as heck better at surviving!

Except that they're not. Half the primarchs are still alive after 10 thousand years, the pheonix lords regularly die and are replaced by the next exarch to wear their suit of armor, who takes on all their memories and aspects of their personality.

Canonness Rory wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:
They may not necessarily be better at fighting, but they're sure as heck better at surviving!

Except that they're not. Half the primarchs are still alive after 10 thousand years, the pheonix lords regularly die and are replaced by the next exarch to wear their suit of armor, who takes on all their memories and aspects of their personality.

QFT.

Well, since the phoenix lords can't really die, wouldn't that mean that they will win over primarchs? Since the primarchs are mortal they can and will die, on the other hand the phoenix lords experience, memories, etc are immortal and therefore will eventually win over the primarchs. Just a thought.

Pheonix Lords for the WIN!!!!!!! Eldar are the coolest, been around for thousands and thousands of years

Lord-Loss wrote:

Eldrad dead too

You do realize that this:

Alpharius wrote:They aren't all dead.

And besides, Eldrad disagrees with you.

was in response to this:

Voronesh wrote:Dead Stuff cant have rules......

Right?