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Made in us
[MOD]
Sentient OverBear






Clearwater, FL



These are some of the basic tenets of You Make Da Call. Some of them clarify the Dakka Rules and some of them are guidelines to ensure relatively smooth rules discussions. If you find someone going against these tenets, feel free to refer them to this post. The Moderation Staff will also use these as moderation guidelines in this forum.

Tenets of You Make Da Call (YMDC):

1. Don't make a statement without backing it up.
- You have to give premises for a conclusive statement; without this, there can be no debate. For more detail on how to actually create a logically supported conclusion, please read this article on how to have an intelligent rules debate.

1a. Don't say that someone is wrong, instead you explain why you think their opinion is wrong. Criticize the opinion, not the person.

2. The only official sources of information are the current rulebooks and the Games Workshop FAQs. Emails from Games Workshop can be easily spoofed and are notorious for being inconsistent and so should not be relied on.

2a. Rulings via GW's social media accounts, twitch streams, etc., even though often provided by the actual games designers, are still not considered official rulings by GW until they are actually published in a errata/FAQ. As such, while it is fine to bring up rulings provided this way in YMDC, it must always be couched with the understanding that these are not official, binding rulings until they actually make their way into a errata/FAQ. If you are mentioning such a ruling, please take the time to post a link to where it can be found so that others can verify for themselves what you're referring to.

3. Never, ever bring real-world examples into a rules argument.
- The rules, while creating a very rough approximation of the real world, are an abstraction of a fantasy universe. Real world examples have no bearing on how the rules work. So quit it.

4. Rules as Written are not How You Would Play It. Please clearly state which one you are talking about during a rules debate, and do not argue a RAW point against a HYWPI point (or vice-versa).
- Many arguments can be avoided if this is made clear. Don't assume you know the point your opponent is arguing about.

5. Stick to discussing the rules, not the poster. Phrases like "Rules Lawyer", "Cheater" and "TFG" have no place in rules discussions. Don't depart from rules discussions by attaching value judgments to different interpretations.

6. Dictionary definitions of words are not always a reliable source of information for rules debates, as words in the general English language have broader meanings than those in the rules. This is further compounded by the fact that certain English words have different meanings or connotations in Great Britain (where the rules were written) and in the United States. Unless a poster is using a word incorrectly in a very obvious manner, leave dictionary definitions out.

7. Do not bring The Most Important Rule (TMIR) into these rules discussions. While it is something you should most certainly abide by while playing (if you're not having fun, why ARE you playing?), it does not apply to rules debates.

A Few Definitions
For those who haven't seen these terms before.

Rules As Written - This refers to playing by the strict letter of the rules, which can lead to odd or counterintuitive situations.

How You Would Play It - This refers to taking small liberties with the rules to smooth out the odd or counterintuitive situations listed above.

This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2018/05/03 01:18:11


DQ:70S++G+++M+B++I+Pw40k94+ID+++A++/sWD178R+++T(I)DM+++

Chance favors only the prepared mind.                                                                                                       Rule #1
- Paraphrased from Louis Pasteur

 
   
Made in us
Bounding Assault Marine





Valdosta

Good luck policing this, lol.

Gwar: "Of course 99.999% of players don't even realise this, and even I am not THAT much of an ass to call on it (unless the guy was a total dick or a Scientologist, but that's just me)"

 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Sentient OverBear






Clearwater, FL

It's a start, you know? It's either this, or give up like a chump.

DQ:70S++G+++M+B++I+Pw40k94+ID+++A++/sWD178R+++T(I)DM+++

Chance favors only the prepared mind.                                                                                                       Rule #1
- Paraphrased from Louis Pasteur

 
   
Made in us
Servoarm Flailing Magos





Alaska

Its a fine start, IMO. Perhaps as an additional resource, we should dig up proper debate techniques. Most of us learned them in high school... making a valid counter-point while keeping it impersonal and professional, without resorting to petty bickering and name-calling, that sort of thing. Also put READ THIS FIRST in this post so people new to the forum don't just jump into YMDC and start swingin'.

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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






on board Terminus Est

Exalt!

ALL HAIL SANGUINIUS! No one can beat my Wu Tang style!

http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com <- My 40k Blog! BA Tactics & Strategies!
 
   
Made in us
Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor







I am still not satisfied with the wording of #2, but I guess it doesnt really matter.

THE HORUS HERESY: Emprah: Hours, go reconquer the galaxy so there can be a new golden age. Horus: But I should be Emprah, bawwwwww! Emprah: Magnus, stop it with the sorcery. Magnus: But I know what's best, bawwwwww! Emprah: Horus, tell Russ to bring Magnus to me because I said so. Horus: Emprah wants you to kill Magnus because he said so. Russ: Fine. Emprah's always right. Plus Ole Red has already been denounced as a traitor and I never liked him anyway. Russ: You're about to die, cyclops! Magnus: O noes! Tzeentch, I choose you! Bawwwww! Russ: Ah well. Now to go kill Horus. Russ: Rowboat, how have you not been doing anything? Guilliman: . . . I've been writing a book. Russ: Sigh. Let's go. Guilliman: And I fought the Word Bearers! Horus: Oh shi--Spess Puppies a'comin? Abbadon: And the Ultramarines, sir. Horus: Who? Anyway, this looks bad. *enter Sanguinis* What are you doing here? Come to join me? Sanguinius: *throws self on Horus's power claws* Alas, I am undone! When you play Castlevania, remember me! *enter Emprah* Emprah: Horus! So my favorite son killed my favorite daughter! Horus: What about the Lion? Emprah: Never liked her. Horus: No one does. Now prepare to die! *mortally wounds Emprah*Emprah: Au contraire, you dick. *kills Horus* Dorn: Okay, now I just plug this into this and . . . okay, it works! Emprah? Hellooooo? Jonson: I did nothing! Guilliman: I did more nothing that you! Jonson: Nuh-uh. I was the most worthless! Guilliman: Have you read my book? Dorn: No one likes that book. Khan: C'mon guys. It's not that bad. Dorn: I guess not. Russ: You all suck. Ima go bring the Emprah back to life.
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Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Woodbridge, VA

2. The only official sources of information are the current rulebooks and the Games Workshop FAQs. Emails from Askyourquestion@games-workshop.com are technically official, but they are easily spoofed and should not be relied on.

How about:
The only official sources for rules are the current rulebooks/codexes (codecil?) and the eratta published in the GW FAQs. The GW FAQs, while not "official", are generally considered as valid support for rules in discussions. Emails from Askyourquestion@games-workshop.com are also not official but provide possible insight into GW Rules As Intended. However, they are easily spoofed and should not be relied on.

Sorry I'm just chiming in, been out and about the past couple weeks,


Don "MONDO"
www.ironfistleague.com
Northern VA/Southern MD 
   
Made in gb
Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime







I would much rather just see "Emails are not suitable for use in a Rules discussion as they are easily spoofed and cannot be verified."

I would also like to have "READ THIS BEFORE POSTING OR ELSE" added to the thread title, as it seems no-one is reading them.

Got 40k Rules Question? Send an e-mail to Gwar! for your Confidential Rules Queries.
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Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

I may start modding following this format on threads when reported, to see how it goes on the road meets rubber scale.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor







Well, as I posted in the other thread, the FAQ and responses while are official sources, are not official rules, and I just think it needs to be clarified. Both of those sources are "studio house rules" and are considered "soft" material.

-quotes from the GW website directly.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/08/26 21:35:11


THE HORUS HERESY: Emprah: Hours, go reconquer the galaxy so there can be a new golden age. Horus: But I should be Emprah, bawwwwww! Emprah: Magnus, stop it with the sorcery. Magnus: But I know what's best, bawwwwww! Emprah: Horus, tell Russ to bring Magnus to me because I said so. Horus: Emprah wants you to kill Magnus because he said so. Russ: Fine. Emprah's always right. Plus Ole Red has already been denounced as a traitor and I never liked him anyway. Russ: You're about to die, cyclops! Magnus: O noes! Tzeentch, I choose you! Bawwwww! Russ: Ah well. Now to go kill Horus. Russ: Rowboat, how have you not been doing anything? Guilliman: . . . I've been writing a book. Russ: Sigh. Let's go. Guilliman: And I fought the Word Bearers! Horus: Oh shi--Spess Puppies a'comin? Abbadon: And the Ultramarines, sir. Horus: Who? Anyway, this looks bad. *enter Sanguinis* What are you doing here? Come to join me? Sanguinius: *throws self on Horus's power claws* Alas, I am undone! When you play Castlevania, remember me! *enter Emprah* Emprah: Horus! So my favorite son killed my favorite daughter! Horus: What about the Lion? Emprah: Never liked her. Horus: No one does. Now prepare to die! *mortally wounds Emprah*Emprah: Au contraire, you dick. *kills Horus* Dorn: Okay, now I just plug this into this and . . . okay, it works! Emprah? Hellooooo? Jonson: I did nothing! Guilliman: I did more nothing that you! Jonson: Nuh-uh. I was the most worthless! Guilliman: Have you read my book? Dorn: No one likes that book. Khan: C'mon guys. It's not that bad. Dorn: I guess not. Russ: You all suck. Ima go bring the Emprah back to life.
DA:80-S+++G+++M++++B++I+Pw40k97#+D++++A++++/fWD199R+++T(S)DM+  
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






on board Terminus Est

To me to say they are not official is a play on words. What's next... the rulebook itself is not official? Eventually at this rate we will all have to bring knives when we play to enforce our interpretations of the rules.

G

ALL HAIL SANGUINIUS! No one can beat my Wu Tang style!

http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com <- My 40k Blog! BA Tactics & Strategies!
 
   
Made in gb
Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime







Green Blow Fly wrote:To me to say they are not official is a play on words. What's next... the rulebook itself is not official? Eventually at this rate we will all have to bring knives when we play to enforce our interpretations of the rules.

G
It isn't a play on words. GW themselves state that the FAQ is not official errata material

Got 40k Rules Question? Send an e-mail to Gwar! for your Confidential Rules Queries.
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Made in gb
Horrific Hive Tyrant





London (work) / Pompey (live, from time to time)

I would also like to have "READ THIS BEFORE POSTING OR ELSE" added to the thread title, as it seems no-one is reading them.



QFT, its too often that someone will drop in mid page and just start on a random topic which they have derived from another post.

Suffused with the dying memories of Sanguinus, the warriors of the Death Company seek only one thing: death in battle fighting against the enemies of the Emperor.  
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






on board Terminus Est

It comes from the designers and it's published. The only reason why I could see that anyone would not want to consider them official is so that they have more leeway to interpret the rules. Every question addressed by a GW FAQ is another potential can of worms we don't have to bother discussing. To me that is a good thing.

G

ALL HAIL SANGUINIUS! No one can beat my Wu Tang style!

http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com <- My 40k Blog! BA Tactics & Strategies!
 
   
Made in us
Major General





Florence, KY

Hmm, those tenets look an awful lot like they were taken from this article

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2009/08/27 02:45:39


'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents
cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable
defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'

- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty
Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

That article is already linked in a sticky. This post is a shorter, pithier one, focused on a small portion of the things discussed in that article.

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A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.

Maelstrom's Edge! 
   
Made in us
Enginseer with a Wrench





Salt Lake City, UT

This is a very good start. I like how we of the internet are required to have rules posted telling us how to be rational, respectful people.
   
Made in gb
Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime







KaloranSLC wrote:This is a very good start. I like how we of the internet are required to have rules posted telling us how to be rational, respectful people.
You mean like how People of the real world have Jails, Colt 45's and Ol' Sparky?

Got 40k Rules Question? Send an e-mail to Gwar! for your Confidential Rules Queries.
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Made in us
Enginseer with a Wrench





Salt Lake City, UT

Gwar! wrote:
KaloranSLC wrote:This is a very good start. I like how we of the internet are required to have rules posted telling us how to be rational, respectful people.
You mean like how People of the real world have Jails, Colt 45's and Ol' Sparky?

I knew you would understand!
   
Made in us
Servoarm Flailing Magos





Alaska

After looking through the later pages of the "experiment" thread on stormbolters and ccw's, I must say I am impressed! All the posts were contributory to the topic, polite, and impersonal. I think the tenets can be declared successful and should be enforced throughout YMDC.

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Made in us
Committed Chaos Cult Marine






Agreed. This would definately cut down on some of the "nonsense" posting here as well.
"My friends say that...", etc.

Check out my blog at:http://ironchaosbrute.blogspot.com.

Vivano crudelis exitus.

Da Boss wrote:No no, Richard Dawkins arresting the Pope is inherently hilarious. It could only be funnier if when it happens, His Holiness exclaims "Rats, it's the Fuzz! Let's cheese it!" and a high speed Popemobile chase ensues.
 
   
Made in gb
Dispassionate Imperial Judge






HATE Club, East London

These rules seem still to favour discussions about the RAW.

If the forum is called 'You make da call' then i would really like to hear about how players MAKE THE CALL when confronted with a counterituitive or absurd rules situation, not what the exact letter of the rules actually says.

I understand that many people arguing the RAW in these posts would not actually PLAY this way, but we seem to have assumed that the purpose of YMDC is to figure out what the RAW is. It is not. The purpose of YMDC is to find out how you make the call in a real game situation....

   
Made in gb
Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime







ArbitorIan wrote:It is not. The purpose of YMDC is to find out how you make the call in a real game situation....
Which for 99.999999% of players is by, as odd as this sounds, following the rules.

Got 40k Rules Question? Send an e-mail to Gwar! for your Confidential Rules Queries.
Please do not PM me unless really necessary. I much prefer e-mail.
Need it Answered RIGHT NOW!? Ring me on Skype: "gwar.the.trolle"
Looking to play some Vassal? Ring me for a game!
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Made in gb
Dispassionate Imperial Judge






HATE Club, East London

Gwar! wrote:
ArbitorIan wrote:It is not. The purpose of YMDC is to find out how you make the call in a real game situation....
Which for 99.999999% of players is by, as odd as this sounds, following the rules.


Well, many times people post quite simple questions, which can answered quickly easily with a RAW answer. Maybe new players, or players who think they've been duped and don't have the opponent's codex to hand. Fair enough.

But the big long discussions on YMDC aren't as simple as that - take the massive argument over deploying from a Valkyrie. This is what i mean by counterintuitive or absurd situations. Many people are aware of what the RAW says, but I would argue that the POINT of YMDC is to find out how people actually play these situations.

However, these threads degenerate into the same people making same point over and over, having quite heated debates as to the fundamental meaning of the word 'and'

   
Made in de
Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander






germany,bavaria

I think point 4 covers the permitted ways to use the YMDC forum:

4. Rules as Written are not How You Would Play It. Please clearly state which one you are talking about during a rules debate, and do not argue a RAW point against a HYWPI point (or vice-versa).
- Many arguments can be avoided if this is made clear. Don't assume you know the point your opponent is arguing about.


So both apply. RAW for theory and HYWPI for real life.


Target locked,ready to fire



In dedicatio imperatum ultra articulo mortis.

H.B.M.C :
We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Cutting stuff up and bunging it back together in new and interesting ways.






Under the couch

ArbitorIan wrote:If the forum is called 'You make da call' then i would really like to hear about how players MAKE THE CALL when confronted with a counterituitive or absurd rules situation, not what the exact letter of the rules actually says.


It's called 'You Make Da Call' because you have the opportunity to make the call on how the rules work. Relevant when there are multiple ways of interpreting a given rule.

Nothing in the name refers inherently to playing other than by the rules.



YMDC has always (at least as long as I've been on Dakka, which is since about '99/2000 or so) been primarily concerned with RAW, rather than with house rules. Simply because house rules are more appropriately discussed with the people you're actually playing with, since they're the ones who are ultimately going to have to agree to them in order for you to use them... and that agreement generally happens or not regardless of how many strangers have agreed with it on the internet.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/08/31 00:47:41


   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

As noted, point 4 specifically encompasses the question of How Would You Play It?

Yakface’s many polls that were used to gather data to help craft the INAT FAQ are classic examples.

The key point, when addressing HWYPI, it to clearly inform everyone that that is what you are talking about. Keep the distinction between RAW (or your interpretation thereof) and HWYPI clear, and it will cut down on confusion and arguments.

Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.

Maelstrom's Edge! 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Sterling, Virginia

I like it. I am glad something like this has become doctrine for the rules discussions to live up to.

We need to put this on a purity seal.


Woad to WAR... on Celts blog, which is mostly Circle Orboros
"I'm sick of auto-penetrating attacks against my behind!" - Kungfuhustler 
   
Made in gb
Hanging Out with Russ until Wolftime







To Quote Polonius
Polonius wrote:there's a saying I learned in law school: "never use the terms 'clearly' or 'obviously' when arguing. If something were obvious, you wouldn't be arguing." It's probably not a bad rule of thumb for YMDC.
This needs to be Rule #8

Got 40k Rules Question? Send an e-mail to Gwar! for your Confidential Rules Queries.
Please do not PM me unless really necessary. I much prefer e-mail.
Need it Answered RIGHT NOW!? Ring me on Skype: "gwar.the.trolle"
Looking to play some Vassal? Ring me for a game!
Download The Unofficial FAQs by Gwar! here! (Dark Eldar Draft FAQ v1.0 released 04/Nov/2010! Download it before the Pandas eat it all!)
 
   
Made in us
Junior Officer with Laspistol






The eye of terror.

The Dragon wrote:Good luck policing this, lol.


Since it's been a while since these were posted, I'd like to give some feedback that YMDC has been more useful for all Dakka users after the Tenets were released. Looks like he's done just fine policing the new policy.

Why did the berzerker cross the road?
Gwar! wrote:Willydstyle has it correct
Gwar! wrote:Yup you're absolutely right

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