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Good afternoon everybody! This is my first post here at Dakka Dakka, so please, be gentle

My mission, should I choose to accept it (and I did): Create a small force that will be fun to play, the battles won't take too long to play and the figures themselves won't bankrupt me. I'm not particularly interested in the cheesiest army around, but nor do I want my pants pulled down by every opponent I meet. I put together the following last night and worked out the cost to be £85 (97eur, 140usd at time of posting) to gather the figures, which seems reasonable to me. Really, I'm just wanting a couple of people to look it over and point out any glaring weaknesses or errors that I've made!

It should also be mentioned at this point that I haven't played 40K since my youth, that was 3rd edition, so I've kind of gone for stuff that at least used to work (thus all the missile launchers). My most frequent opposition will be Orks, although at this stage I don't have any details of my opponent's army list.

COMPANY COMMAND SQUAD
Commander: Boltgun, Meltabombs.
Vet 1: Regimental Standard.
Vet 2: Vox Caster.
Vet 3&4: Heavy Weapons Team: Missile Launcher.
SUB-TOTAL: 92pts

VETERAN SQUAD #1
Vet 1: Flamer.
Vet 2: Melta Gun.
Vet 3&4: Heavy Weapons Team: Missile Launcher.
Vet 5: Vox Caster.
All others: Standard.
Doctrine: Grenadiers (4+ save).
SUB-TOTAL: 135pts

VETERAN SQUAD #2
Vet 1: Flamer.
Vet 2: Melta Gun.
Vet 3&4: Heavy Weapons Team: Missile Launcher.
Vet 5: Vox Caster.
All others: Standard.
Doctrine: Grenadiers (4+ save).
SUB-TOTAL: 135pts

SCOUT SENTINEL SQUADRON
Sentinel 1: Missile Launcher, Searchlight.
Sentinel 2: Missile Launcher, Searchlight.
Sentinel 3: Missile Launcher, Searchlight.
SUB-TOTAL: 138pts

TOTAL: 500pts.

Thank you for reading, and thank you in advance for any comments/suggestions.

EDIT: Originally forgot to pay for Vox Casters on the Vet squads, there's my last 10pts... taking me happily to 500pts exactly.

I think many people will advise you to specialize the veteran squads (2 flamers/2 meltaguns), although I think at this point level it could be OK to leave them like this for versatility.

One thing however: If possible, I would field the sentinels as single units. That way, some unfortunate incident with fire dragons (scoring 3 melta hits) won't kill the whole squad, but only one model, because they can target only one model. Furthermore, if you outflank all three, they can come from different flank and that way increase the possibility that one or two of them come up on the flank you want them to.

Apart from that: I like it. Not sure about the MLs on the sentinels, maybe autocannons would do an equal job better. Difficult. Maybe Multilasers would be even better, because you will deal more with infantry than with tanks at that level - and with infantry, three shots are better than one or two, and S6 is enough to 2+ wound anything walking.

I don't play guard, but I know 1 thing for sure: Take a Russ. They belong in any Guard army, just got a cool new kit, and blow holes out of anything they target. They are also fun to paint.

While Russes are good and near unkillable at 500 points, the basic Russ costs 150 points - with upgrades, it gets more expensive very fast. Even if he would abandon all Sentinels, he would have to cut back on the rest for even a basic Russ.

Then somebody gets a melta close to it or a luckshot with a lascannon and, BLAM, there goes the only part of the army that is worth anything in a fight. I'd keep the Russ for 750 points, then it's easier to get those points together.

Witzkatz wrote:While Russes are good and near unkillable at 500 points, the basic Russ costs 150 points - with upgrades, it gets more expensive very fast.

Absolutely correct. I toyed with the idea of using a Leman Russ for a little while, but it would cripple the rest of my force... furthermore... it'd mean I'd have to buy one! I'm trying to do this whole thing on a budget, so I'll be avoiding any monstrous tanks if I can help it

Honestly, for a force this light, I'd consider fielding an infantry platoon over the vet squads. If your most frequent opponent is going to be Orks, it might be more beneficial to have more shots than having melta. A vanilla infantry platoon costs 130 points, and you get 3 squads out of that. From there, each additional squad is only 50 pts. Also, against Orks at 500, I would use multilasers instead of missile launchers. At such a low point cost, generally I've noticed that the secret is to go quantity over quality. If you want a melta or a flamer unit, turn your PCS into that unit, and then use your CCS for issuing orders. Having missile launchers in squads could be okay, but you have to hope he groups his models close together otherwise you might not gets many hits with the frag missiles, and krak missiles would be overkill for as few vehicles as he will surely have for that few points. I assume you were planning no Chimeras for that point cost?

The only problem I see with the list is the regimental standard, would such a small force have one with them?

daedalus- your idea makes sense if you aren't on a budget which Tantras says he is...

I'm working on a similar small force but using two Veteran squads with two Valkyries as the models are sooo nice...

Mick

Mick A wrote:The only problem I see with the list is the regimental standard, would such a small force have one with them?

I agree with this. It is kind of a point sink, and useless if your vet squads have to separate from the CCS for whatever reason. I just forgo the standard and use the Get Back In the Fight! order if any starts to turn tail. Typically I keep my CCS behind my other forces, so it works well to catch them as they flee. For a bigger game, I could see advantages to having them around, but 15 points is a huge sink for as few points as you're got here.

Mick A wrote:daedalus- your idea makes sense if you aren't on a budget which Tantras says he is...

Fair enough. Out of curiosity, Tantras, how many guys do you have to work with? A battleforce worth? Maybe there is a more optimal combination of troops you can use out of what you have to work with. I know when I first started with IG, I was in the same boat and kept breaking down miniatures to try out new weapon combinations and squad sizes.

*EDIT* Also, depending on the amount of cover on the board, you might consider having Forward Sentries as a doctrine instead of Grenadiers. Lots of guns have AP4 or better, and while the armor might help a bit in CC, if the Orks are that close to you, you're done anyway. */EDIT*

Mick A wrote:daedalus- your idea makes sense if you aren't on a budget which Tantras says he is...

Precisely the problem. Because of the low budget I'm planning with I know that things aren't going to be optimal, but there's still a certain amount of min/maxing to be done. Several people have advised me already to dump some of the missile launchers for multi-lasers. I'm definitely going to look into that. Also, that's a good point about the regimental standard, Mick. I think I just took that without thinking.

So if I downgraded the three sentinels to multi-lasers and dropped the regimental standard, that's 45pts recouped. But... what's worth buying for that? I could drop the meltabombs from the HQ unit and spend 50pts on... what? 5 Ratling Snipers? Are they actually useful on the battlefield?

The other problem I'm facing is that although I've read up on the rules and the theory, I haven't actually played this edition of 40K yet. Theory and practise are often so far apart!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Daedalus wrote:Out of curiosity, Tantras, how many guys do you have to work with? A battleforce worth? Maybe there is a more optimal combination of troops you can use out of what you have to work with.

I haven't actually got any figures at the moment, but I have the money to go out and buy them. I've been monitoring several cheap deals on e-bay that might give me some room to manoeuvre, but nothing has come of it... yet.

Without going too much in depth, the wife and I are expecting a baby mid-October, so trying to justify any sort of leisure-expenditure to the woman is already a battle, so keeping the outlay to a minimum is key, if only so my home life runs smoothly!

As a guide, the £85 (GBP) or so is pretty much an upper limit, but I have a lot of friends that game, so with a little foraging I may be able to scare up some bits and pieces; like the Ratlings I just mentioned for example.

Snipers are great against high strength units, but against anything with a T3, they're not as awesome. Ratlings hit on a 3+ and wound on a 4+ no matter what, meaning that they beat out lasguns on anything T4 or higher (or anything with a 6+ armor save). They also benefit from range, which is something that your list is somewhat lacking right now. Other than your Missile Launchers which can't fire and move, you have meltaguns which are 12", and Flamers which end up coming out to be about 8". Everything else is 12" if you move. If you expect to use those flamers against Orks, realize that you're going to get one shot on them before they assault into you and ruin your day. If they waaagh at 12" away, its possible they'll never see combat. Just something to consider.

A Squat, sorry, Ratling, sniper squad are a handy pain the backside unit for your opponents. I always use a scout unit in my Eldar army that proves to annoy most opponents as they give covering fire across the board...
Mick

It is not bad, for against orks I would swap the sentinels for a chimera, you would have to limit your veteran squad melta weaponry/ take out missile launchers, Iwould say that you should take missiles OR meltas any way as the one shot you would get is more likely todestroythae tank you target!

daedalus wrote:If you expect to use those flamers against Orks, realize that you're going to get one shot on them before they assault into you and ruin your day. If they waaagh at 12" away, its possible they'll never see combat. Just something to consider.

An excellent point. I think I selected those flamers without putting too much thought into it. I'll switch them out for grenade launchers for range and versatility. There's nothing stopping me getting rid of the meltas either. Hmm. It depends if I can amass these spare points that are cropping up into something useful I suppose. Back to the codex for me!

Don't get me wrong, flamers and meltas definately have their place, but it pays to know your enemy. Flamers are fantastic for dealing with Eldar hiding in some ruins. Meltas are great for vehicles and terminators. For Orks though, it pays to keep them as far away from you as possible. There's really no point to not tailor your army to your most common enemy.

Looking at your list again have a think about replacing a couple of missile launchers with either autocannons or heavy bolters (or possibly both).

My two vet squads have 2x grenade launchers and 1x autocannon/heavy bolter (depending on what they are going against) each as well as the grenadier doctrine (125 points per squad). They also have a Valkyrie each with lascannon and heavy bolter sponsons (125 points each). As this force is designed as a raiding force I didn't bother with any command...

Mick

Mick A wrote:Looking at your list again have a think about replacing a couple of missile launchers with either autocannons or heavy bolters (or possibly both).

My two vet squads have 2x grenade launchers and 1x autocannon/heavy bolter (depending on what they are going against) each as well as the grenadier doctrine (125 points per squad). They also have a Valkyrie each with lascannon and heavy bolter sponsons (125 points each). As this force is designed as a raiding force I didn't bother with any command...

Mick

I'm thinking about the heavy weapons choices, it's interesting, pros and cons to everything I guess. Unfortunately, as much as I'd love the Valkyries, I don't want to spend the cash on buying the models! Also, we're adhering to the standard construction rules, so as much as it pains me, I need a command!

After a bit of thinking and scheming, taking into account the comments so far (which have been excellent, by the way, I really appreciate it!) I'm left with this:

COMPANY COMMAND SQUAD
Commander: Plasma Pistol, Meltabombs.
Vet 1: Vox Caster.
Vet 2&3: Heavy Weapons Team: Missile Launcher.
Vet 4: Standard.
SUB-TOTAL: 85pts

VETERAN SQUAD #1
Vet 1: Grenade Launcher.
Vet 2: Grenade Launcher.
Vet 3&4: Heavy Weapons Team: Missile Launcher.
Vet 5: Vox Caster.
All others: Standard.
Doctrine: Grenadiers (4+ save).
SUB-TOTAL: 130pts

VETERAN SQUAD #2
Vet 1: Grenade Launcher.
Vet 2: Grenade Launcher.
Vet 3&4: Heavy Weapons Team: Missile Launcher.
Vet 5: Vox Caster.
All others: Standard.
Doctrine: Grenadiers (4+ save).
SUB-TOTAL: 130pts

SCOUT SENTINEL SQUADRON
Sentinel 1: Multi-Laser.
Sentinel 2: Multi-Laser.
Sentinel 3: Multi-Laser.
SUB-TOTAL: 105pts

RATLING SNIPER SQUAD
5 Ratling Snipers: Standard
SUB-TOTAL: 50pts

TOTAL: 500pts.

Also, if I have any luck picking one up cheaply from e-bay, I may well scrap the Commander's meltabombs and the Ratling snipers in favour of a Chimera. I've left the missile launchers in there for now as they're the most expensive, so I'm budgeting for worst-case scenario so to speak. If I do change my mind then it'll give me another 10pts to mess around with (another Ratling?).

The missile launchers are probably not a terrible choice overall, but they are expensive. I use them in my infantry squads and typically have good results with the ability to switch between frag and krak missiles interchangeably. I want to know what you end up getting and how it works out for you.

Yes keep us upto date and how it works out. And congratulations! Soon be time to start planning babies first army...
Mick

What about dropping a Sentinel, CCS Missile launcher, and CCS plasma pistol for a Chimera?

Salted Diamond wrote:What about dropping a Sentinel, CCS Missile launcher, and CCS plasma pistol for a Chimera?

Yikes, I missed that plasma pistol altogether. I highly recommend either dropping that, or finding some points to give your CCS FNP. If you actually fire that thing, you end up with a 1 in 9 chance that you'll fry your Commander. I hate laspistols too, so what I usually do is give him a boltgun. I'm sure you know at least one person who plays SM, so they shouldn't be too hard to come by. That will double your range standing still also, so its a win-win. And on top of that, it will only cost 2 points or so, so technically, its a win-win-win.

daedalus wrote:

Salted Diamond wrote:What about dropping a Sentinel, CCS Missile launcher, and CCS plasma pistol for a Chimera?

Yikes, I missed that plasma pistol altogether. I highly recommend either dropping that, or finding some points to give your CCS FNP. If you actually fire that thing, you end up with a 1 in 9 chance that you'll fry your Commander. I hate laspistols too, so what I usually do is give him a boltgun. I'm sure you know at least one person who plays SM, so they shouldn't be too hard to come by. That will double your range standing still also, so its a win-win. And on top of that, it will only cost 2 points or so, so technically, its a win-win-win.

Hah, in the original post it was a bolter (scroll up) but I changed it on a whim when I started cutting points from other weapons and suchlike. I need to learn to control these whims! Putting the bolter back in.

That option for a Chimera is very tempting, I'll give that some serious thought. I think I'd be very likely to do it, if I can find a cheap Chimera somewhere and I don't actually have the kit. Thanks for the suggestion, Salted Diamond.

A chimera is $35(us) and a Sentinel is $25(us). It's only $10 more, and IMHO more useful.