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Had these come up in a past game:

1. Does a veteran armed with a meltagun have *any* other ranged weapon at all.

2. Does a Lascannon team in a Veteran squad have any other ranged weapons to fire. If so how many shots can be made?

3. If so, and the rest of the squad has Shotguns, do they also have shotguns?

4. Can a squad actually have a mix of shotty and lasgun

EDIT lasgun not lascannon in the last one.

GMMStudios wrote:Had these come up in a past game:

1. Does a veteran armed with a meltagun have *any* other ranged weapon at all.

2. Does a Lascannon team in a Veteran squad have any other ranged weapons to fire. If so how many shots can be made?

3. If so, and the rest of the squad has Shotguns, do they also have shotguns?

4. Can a squad actually have a mix of shotty and lasgun

EDIT lasgun not lascannon in the last one.

1) No, they replace the Lasgun for the Special Weapon
2) They have a single lasgun as well, but they can only fire one weapon (A Lasgun or a Heavy Weapon) as they are a single model
3) No, A "Veteran Weapons Team" is not a "Veteran" so cannot exchange their lasgun for a Shotgun. Just like how the "Veteran Sergeant" is not a "Veteran" so cannot take specials/shotgun/voxcaster/heavy.
4) Yes.

Thats interesting. With the equipment I take it would actually be beneficial to take shotties and las.

3 makes sense I dunno why I didnt realize that.

Thanks!!

You can give Veteran weapons teams shotguns. No logical reason you couldn't. Though if you're going to mix, may as well just leave them with a lasgun if you can so you can avoid RAW Nazis.

Skinnattittar wrote:No logical reason you couldn't.

Yes, there is. It is a little thing called "The Rules".

The Rules on page 98 of Codex: Imperial Guard clearly state that "The Veteran Sergeant may [...]" and "Any Veteran may [...]" thus showing a very clear separation. A "Veteran Sergeant" is not a "Veteran" and cannot take items such as the Vox Caster. Similarly, a "Veteran Weapons Team" is similarly not a "Veteran", the exact same way that an Apothecary in a Space Marine command Squad is not a Veteran. Different Profile, Different Name, different Model.

The Rules then go on to state "Any Veteran may replace his lasgun with a shotgun." A "Veteran Weapons Team" is not a "Veteran" any more than the "Veteran Sergeant".

A) This is a make-believe game that throughout its history has encouraged reasonable extrapolations and flexing of its rules.

B) The entry says "Veterans" and nothing more on the specifics of the matter. Considering that the Veteran Sergeant has more options specifically and no lasgun, I would say he or she (no need to discriminate) probably needs an extended specific listing.

So yes, I will stand by my ruling, though be more general and say that logically a veteran weapons team may exchange their lasgun for a shotgun.

EDIT : Extrapolations

I agree with Skinna, i believe it is reasonable it give the whole team shotguns, as for the user of the heavy weapon itself, thats debatable. It would be best to ask your gaming group. But your questions do open some very interesting tactical ideas.

And to GWAR, GW staff has openly stated that codex's are good guidelines but players have some flexibility, more importantly there's a reason why GW includes a "its a game, have fun" clause.

Theres no reason to be snappy or passive aggressive, this is a game, and more importantly a friendly community. Ive been fairly impressed with dakka so far, and i would hate to see this place become corrupted like so many other forums.

Twoshoesvans wrote:I agree with Skinna, i believe it is reasonable it give the whole team shotguns, as for the user of the heavy weapon itself, thats debatable. It would be best to ask your gaming group. But your questions do open some very interesting tactical ideas.

And to GWAR, GW staff has openly stated that codex's are good guidelines but players have some flexibility, more importantly there's a reason why GW includes a "its a game, have fun" clause.

Theres no reason to be snappy or passive aggressive, this is a game, and more importantly a friendly community. Ive been fairly impressed with dakka so far, and i would hate to see this place become corrupted like so many other forums.

The dillemma is that Gwar! is correct on this one. Sure the Codex's are flexible, but so is everything in the game. If you want to play XTREEMHAMMERZ41K using the Citadel models, and some 40K rules, but make all shots Instant Death kills, then you can.

But, good luck finding a tournament, or anywhere near as many players as play 40K the proper way, to play your version.

Che-Vito wrote:

Twoshoesvans wrote:I agree with Skinna, i believe it is reasonable it give the whole team shotguns, as for the user of the heavy weapon itself, thats debatable. It would be best to ask your gaming group. But your questions do open some very interesting tactical ideas.

And to GWAR, GW staff has openly stated that codex's are good guidelines but players have some flexibility, more importantly there's a reason why GW includes a "its a game, have fun" clause.

Theres no reason to be snappy or passive aggressive, this is a game, and more importantly a friendly community. Ive been fairly impressed with dakka so far, and i would hate to see this place become corrupted like so many other forums.

The dillemma is that Gwar! is correct on this one. Sure the Codex's are flexible, but so is everything in the game. If you want to play XTREEMHAMMERZ41K using the Citadel models, and some 40K rules, but make all shots Instant Death kills, then you can.

But, good luck finding a tournament, or anywhere near as many players as play 40K the proper way, to play your version.

And if we feed the rules into a logic engine (yes, they exist) the game will become very very boring and flavorless, much like a power player's army lists. What the OP has suggested is fair and the only issue for RAW is whether or not Veteran trooper options can be applied to a Veteran Heavy Weapon Team. Since any tactical advantage that can be had from switching to a shotgun has an equal tactical disadvantage, according to the allotted points. For the sake of fluff, for the sake of argument, and for all logic and good sense, it is an easily permissive slide.

I am not saying that RAW says you can, in fact it does not say you can. But I am not a believer that the rules are strictly permissive as so many rules lawyers insist it very well must for fear of slippery slope. Well, it's a game and I like slip and slides. Just make sure where it leads there are no rocks and it is all fun.

Skinnattittar wrote:
And if we feed the rules into a logic engine (yes, they exist) the game will become very very boring and flavorless, much like a power player's army lists. What the OP has suggested is fair and the only issue for RAW is whether or not Veteran trooper options can be applied to a Veteran Heavy Weapon Team. Since any tactical advantage that can be had from switching to a shotgun has an equal tactical disadvantage, according to the allotted points. For the sake of fluff, for the sake of argument, and for all logic and good sense, it is an easily permissive slide.

I am not saying that RAW says you can, in fact it does not say you can. But I am not a believer that the rules are strictly permissive as so many rules lawyers insist it very well must for fear of slippery slope. Well, it's a game and I like slip and slides. Just make sure where it leads there are no rocks and it is all fun.

All fair points and you are free to arm your veteran heavy weapon teams with Deathstrike missile launchers if you so choose and your opponent agrees, but you are posting in YMDC wich means that only RAW matters, and by RAW, VHWT are not Veterans and so can not be armed with shotguns.

Skinnattittar and Twoshoesvans seem to make arguments for the "how I'd play it" view, while the rest state what the RAW say.

Both approaches are in order, as far as I can see it, but things would be easier if the "How I'd play it" faction would state more clearly that they are not arguing RAW. Which, in result, would cause less irritated posts by the RAW faction. No need to confuse these different topics in this thread and let things get ugly.

Furthermore, I agree with the "How I'd play it" viewpoint and the RAW viewpoint. As long as no one argues that by RAW you are allowed to take a shotgun for your HWT, we're done here, aren't we?

PhantomViper wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:
And if we feed the rules into a logic engine (yes, they exist) the game will become very very boring and flavorless, much like a power player's army lists. What the OP has suggested is fair and the only issue for RAW is whether or not Veteran trooper options can be applied to a Veteran Heavy Weapon Team. Since any tactical advantage that can be had from switching to a shotgun has an equal tactical disadvantage, according to the allotted points. For the sake of fluff, for the sake of argument, and for all logic and good sense, it is an easily permissive slide.
I am not saying that RAW says you can, in fact it does not say you can. But I am not a believer that the rules are strictly permissive as so many rules lawyers insist it very well must for fear of slippery slope. Well, it's a game and I like slip and slides. Just make sure where it leads there are no rocks and it is all fun.

All fair points and you are free to arm your veteran heavy weapon teams with Deathstrike missile launchers if you so choose and your opponent agrees, but you are posting in YMDC wich means that only RAW matters, and by RAW, VHWT are not Veterans and so can not be armed with shotguns.

And this is a clear example of 'scare mongering.'

"If we let shotguns become available as a free trade, like the rest of the squad is able to do, then what next? A free trade with a Deathstrike Missile?! And after that? Guard frag grenades can be traded in for Vortex Grenades?! Leman Russes with Titan statlines?! Where does it end!" Well quite clearly with the reasonable trade of lasguns for shotguns like the rest of the squad. RAW does not support it but doesn't deny it either, it does say "Veteran" and the Veteran Sergeant does have his own section, but he too can exchange for a shotgun. It is more unreasonable to say that the Veteran Heavy Weapon Team can't, despite the lack of specifics, though defending it would generally be folly as the codex is as clear as Games Wotkshop generally gets.

Witzkatz wrote:Skinnattittar and Twoshoesvans seem to make arguments for the "how I'd play it" view, while the rest state what the RAW say.

Both approaches are in order, as far as I can see it, but things would be easier if the "How I'd play it" faction would state more clearly that they are not arguing RAW. Which, in result, would cause less irritated posts by the RAW faction. No need to confuse these different topics in this thread and let things get ugly.

Furthermore, I agree with the "How I'd play it" viewpoint and the RAW viewpoint. As long as no one argues that by RAW you are allowed to take a shotgun for your HWT, we're done here, aren't we?

I did say RAW they do not.

Skinnattittar wrote:I am not saying that RAW says you can, in fact it does not say you can. But I am not a believer that the rules are strictly permissive as so many rules lawyers insist it very well must for fear of slippery slope. Well, it's a game and I like slip and slides. Just make sure where it leads there are no rocks and it is all fun.

Skinnattittar wrote: Well quite clearly with the reasonable trade of lasguns for shotguns like the rest of the squad. RAW does not support it but doesn't deny it either,

1) It does deny it. (protip: It doesn't deny me the ability to give my Blood Claws 15 Demolisher Cannons either. "It doesn't say I can't" is not a valid Argument.)
2) Who is to say what "Reasonable" is. "Reasonable" is "Whatever I want and if you disagree you are breaking TMIR!!!!"!"!1111"11oneoneonekne!!" If you let one thing slide, you have to let others. If you think it is reasonable to let the VWT have a Shotgun, I think it is Reasonable for my Space Marines to have 2+ Invulnerable Saves rolled on 3D6. Both are breaking the rules, why is your breaking the rules more "reasonable" than mine?

Skinnattittar wrote:And this is a clear example of 'scare mongering.'

"If we let shotguns become available as a free trade, like the rest of the squad is able to do, then what next? A free trade with a Deathstrike Missile?! And after that? Guard frag grenades can be traded in for Vortex Grenades?! Leman Russes with Titan statlines?! Where does it end!" Well quite clearly with the reasonable trade of lasguns for shotguns like the rest of the squad. RAW does not support it but doesn't deny it either, it does say "Veteran" and the Veteran Sergeant does have his own section, but he too can exchange for a shotgun. It is more unreasonable to say that the Veteran Heavy Weapon Team can't, despite the lack of specifics, though defending it would generally be folly as the codex is as clear as Games Wotkshop generally gets.

It is not a question of scaremongering or not. If we where playing a game (friendly or even in a tournament) and you said to me that your VHWT had a shotgun instead of a lasgun, especially if the shotgun was modeled, I'd let you play with it that way, no problem with me.

But the fact is that this forum is read by hundreds of people from all over the world all belonging to diferent gaming groups that have their own versions of what "reasonable" means, so by necessity we can't mistake "house rules" with RAW or this forum would turn into a mess really fast...

@Skinnattittar: I apologize for having missed the part where you stated you don't think your suggestion is RAW.

I was only trying to reduce friction between RAWites and HIDPItes - regarding the last posts, I obviously failed.

Bottem line: Your making a post in YMTC and thus will have your questions answered from a tournament viewpoint. If your going to go ahead with "what sounds logical to you" viewpoint then then why post here at all?

This part of the forum exists to discuss the confines of the rules system. So people like me have prior knowledge to back up builds/tactics/ and rules clarification during tournaments or any other competitive play.

You can "play" however you want in your living room. Hell you could invite karrot top over, and play your guard vs his army of lame comedic props. However this thread (and the people who man it) will always give you dogma from the strict point of RAW. RAW says you cant give your heavy weapon team a shotgun.

RAW is clear - HWT loaders don't get shotguns. Neither do command squad vets with medi packs or vox casters.

Is it reasonable to give them shotguns in a friendly game? Certainly.

Scott-S6 wrote:RAW is clear - HWT loaders don't get shotguns. Neither do command squad vets with medi packs or vox casters.

Is it reasonable to give them shotguns in a friendly game? Certainly.

I am gonna have to correct you here. Neither the Vox Caster nor the Medi pack change the profile of the Veteran like the way the HWT does. He Remains a Veteran, and he still has a Lasgun, so can exchange it for a Shotgun.