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Made in us
Sinewy Scourge




Murfreesboro, TN

Friday roll’s around and it’s time to pack the van and head to Chicago. Some 11 hours (damn northern Indiana traffic  ) and we’re there. I managed to snag a room within spitting distance of the Battle Bunker and we stop by to check it out. It was pretty impressive, the tables were already set up for the next day. After a fitful night’s sleep it was on to the tournie!
My list again:
HQ

Archon – punisher, tormentor helm, combat drugs, shadow field, plasma grenades, animus vitae, trophy rack (rides with a wyche squad)

Dracite – agonizer, plasma grenades
7 wyche retinue – succubus w/agonizer, w.w., plasma grenades, x2 blasters, goblet of spite
Raider – nightshields, horrofex, torture amp

Elite

3x 8 Wyches - succubus w/agonizer, w.w., plasma grenades x2 blasters
Raider – nightshields, horrofex, torture amp

Troops

3x 7 warriors – sybarite w/poison blades, terrofex, blaster, splinter cannon
Raider – nightshields, horrofex

2x 5 warriors – dark lance
Raider– nightshields, horrofex

10 warriors – 2 dark lances

Heavy

3x Ravagers – x3 disintegrators, nightshields

Game 1

The first mission would be Annihilation with HQs being worth 3kps and troops 1kp, everything else was 2kp. Terrain was kind of light as it was on most of the boards.

My opponents list:

Daemon Prince – wings, MoN, Nurgles Rot
Summoned Greater Deamon
9 plague marines in rhino (havoc launcher) – champ w/ fist, x2 meltaguns
9 plague marines in rhino – champ w/ fist, x2 meltaguns
X4 10 chaos glory space marines x2 rhinos
X2 landraiders w/ demonic possession
Defiler

So yay, not a lot of stuff to worry about.
The battle consisted mainly of me blowing his transports and then either killing the occupants with either disintegrator fire from the ravagers or in h-t-h with the wyches/archon. The high point was my archon +wyches charging the demon prince and killing it, then being charged by the greater demon and killing it before it swung. At the end of the game I had lost 2 wyche squads an 3 raiders, he had a stripped rhino and an immobilized defiler left.

He was a nice guy and took it very well.

Massacer+4 points=24pts

Game 2

5 objectives against a dual lash chaos with oblit cult. If I can silence the oblits early on this should be a cakewalk right? But then again I am playing on table #1 in the ‘Ard Boyz finals…

My opponents List

x2 Daemon Prince – wings, Lash, MoS
x3 Dreadnoughts – x2 cc arms
x4 9 man Plague marine squads in rhinos
x3 3 man oblit squads

I get first turn and take it. I maneuver my archon+wyches and dracite to take on 2 oblit squads. My shooting sees 1 prince lose 2 wounds and 1 rhino destroyed. Not a lot there. In his turn he destroys a ravager and a wyche raider (wyches are pinned).

Turn 2 sees the archon and dracite charge 2 different oblit squads. A unit of wyches charges a daemon prince after I shoot it down to 2 wounds. The rest of my shooting does nothing but blow the gun of a rhino….In CC 4 of the 6 oblits die and the wyches put a wound on the prince, who then wounds twice…I fail both saves….and fail my leadership test and am run down! Dammit Murphy…

To summarize that signals a change in fortunes. I manage to finish off both oblit squads, but not before a dread locks down the dracites squad. The archon and crew go on to take out 2 plague marine squads, but the good news ends there, as my lances are unable to damage any vehicles further (even with rear armor shots…) and it takes me forever to finally finish of the princes. His last unit of Oblits are on fire, destroying a vehicle every turn, with the ravagers being the first to go… Going into the last turn I am able to contest all the objectives and hold one, but he gets a unit of plague marines over to that one and for some reason the 2 DE warriors holding it, don’t survive .

Minor loss + 1BP for killing both his HQs.

Third Round

Ok so I go from table 1 to table 7 but if I can massacre this opponent with full points I can still make top 5..I think. Then I see the mission, you can only get a massacre by holding BOTH objectives and having more killpoints….and its spearhead. But my opponent is marines, hopefully a Vulcan list….nope, it turns out to be pure DE killing power courtesy of Dakka’s Darth Diggler…gak.

Darth’s list

Librarian – Termie armour, storm shield, null zone, vortex of doom
5 Th+Ss Termies
Land Raider Redeemer – multi-melta
x2 Dreadnought
x4 10 marines w/4 lascannons +melta
x2 Razorback w/ assault cannons
3 attack bikes
3 multi-melta attack bikes
Landspeeder typhoon
10 devastators – 4 missile launchers
Predator Destructor
Thunderfire cannon

He wins the roll to go first and after seeing his deployment and the scarcity of cover I get the idea that this will not go well. And it doesn’t his opening salvo kills 3 raiders and a ravager…. This will continue on and culminate in one of the worst beatings I have ever received. I end the game with all of 2 dark lance wielding warriors left just off the objective in combat with an attack bike squadron. They turn out to be to far away from the objective so I get massacred.

But it turns out I was right as the full points massacre was enough to get Darth Diggler into 5th place….yay .

Despite some bad luck on my part I had a fabulous time at the finals, and in Chicago in general. I really don’t know why people complain about the type of people that play, out of 9 ‘ard boyz games this year I had 9 great opponents.

Well know that that’s done, its time to start getting ready for the fantasy ‘ard boyz this weekend and start the whole thing over again….

"I'm not much for prejudice, I prefer to judge people by whats inside, and how much fun it is to get to those insides." - Unknown Haemonculi 
   
Made in nl
Lesser Daemon of Chaos






Groningen, The Netherlands

Thanks for the write-up Gardeth! Always great to read about Tournament experiences. Very nasty list you have there. Couldve easily gone better for you. Still, well done. Good to read youve had fun.

Cilithan

Fiery the angels fell; deep thunder rolled around their shores; burning with the fires of Orc.

Armies:
Daemons: 5000+ points
CSM/Black Legion: 5000+ points
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Brutal, running into the last standing gunline. You coming down to Phoenix Games in ATL for the Fantasy 'Ardboyz, or is there one closer to home?

All in all, fact is that Warhammer 40K has never been as balanced as it is now, and codex releases have never been as interesting as they are now (new units and vehicles and tons of new special rules/strategies each release -- not just the same old crap with a few changes in statlines and points costs).

-Therion
_______________________________________

New Codexia's Finest Hour - my fluff about the change between codexes, roughly novel length. 
   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge




Murfreesboro, TN

40kenthusiast wrote:Brutal, running into the last standing gunline. You coming down to Phoenix Games in ATL for the Fantasy 'Ardboyz, or is there one closer to home?


It happens. My Nid'zilla opponent from the semi's was probably thinking the same thing "Damn, 3 dark eldar players in the US and I had to play one of em here...."

As for Fantasy 'Ard Boyz there are in fact around 5 locations within a 2 hour distance. Not sure as to which semi's I will (hopefully) be going to (as long as its not in memphis like last year, bleeah).

"I'm not much for prejudice, I prefer to judge people by whats inside, and how much fun it is to get to those insides." - Unknown Haemonculi 
   
Made in us
Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader





How did that marines list do so well?


My 40k Theory Blog
 
   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge




Murfreesboro, TN

Timmah wrote:How did that marines list do so well?


He's a damned good general. He made it to the finals with that list and ended up in 5th place, so it can't be all that bad. And, though I hate to bring it up, it did beat me like it paid for me.

"I'm not much for prejudice, I prefer to judge people by whats inside, and how much fun it is to get to those insides." - Unknown Haemonculi 
   
Made in us
Focused Fire Warrior




Atlanta

gardeth wrote:though I hate to bring it up, it did beat me like it paid for me.

Seconded. I faced this list right before gardeth did, and I'm still trying to figure out what happened. In the interest of decisive and full turn-length games (not to mention ability to pack into a carry-on for the flight), I had brought 20 Nobz split between 2 battlewagons, a battlewagon of 'ard boyz, 3 trukks of boyz, 30 lootas, warboss, and kff mek rather than my horde list which has served me so well over the past several months. Against Darth, I think I took out one Dreadnought, the Predator, the five terminators, five out of six of the bikes (Side note... Darth, if you're reading this, the bikes didn't all have unique wargear. That's why the wound allocation worked differently than with my Nobz.), and one five man combat squad, plus taking off one of the flamestorms from the Redeemer. In return, he wiped my whole army in its' entirety.

While not all were in range at any given time, there are 25 shots per turn in his list capable of cracking a battlewagon, let alone a trukk: 4 lascannons, 4 meltas, 6 missiles, 7 multimeltas (pretty sure the typhoon had one), 2 assault cannons (Yay rending pens...), and the 2 shots from the autocannon. The missiles and thunderfire made short work of my lootas (with almost zero cover on my side of the table, all I could do was line them up on the table edge and hope he scattered off with those templates). After my Nobz had their rides shot out from under them, torrents of bolter fire ate one squad, and a combined charge by terminators and a dreadnought made short work of the other (lost combat via taking 2 wounds per failed invul save, proceeded to fail leadership twice). Bottom line, that's the worst beating I've ever taken in all the games of warhammer I've ever played. I'm just glad I'm not the only one that he beat!

Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. -- Sun-tzu
The art of war is simple enough. Find out where your enemy is. Get at him as soon as you can. Strike him as hard as you can, and keep moving on. -- Ulysses S. Grant
Armies and records (w/l/d) (1v1 only)
Orks: ~8500pts -- 2009: 52/2/7 & 17/2/6 in RTTs -- Casual size 85% Painted
Empire: 7000pts -- 2009:19/6/11 & 3/1/5 in RTTs -- Casual size 50% Painted
Marines: 2000pts -- 2009: 4/2/0 -- 20% Painted
Kroot Mercenaries - ~1500pts -- 2009: 0/1/1
Vampire Counts: 1850pts -- 2009: 9/3/4 -- Paint? We're dead...
Skaven (Work in Progress) - ~4000pts -- 2012: 1/1/1 -- Unpainted
Tau (Work in Progress) - 1500pts -- 2012: 5/1/1 -- 20% Painted 
   
Made in us
Major






far away from Battle Creek, Michigan

It's great to hear the first-hand experience of you guys at 'Ard Boyz. To derail the thread a bit, Mal, what was your trustworthy horde list that you left behind in favor of the Wagons/Trukks? It sounds like a lot of marine and IG players built lists premised on anti-armour outright.

PROSECUTOR: By now, there have been 34 casualties.

Elena Ceausescu says: Look, and that they are calling genocide.

 
   
Made in us
Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne





St. Louis, MO

olympia wrote:It's great to hear the first-hand experience of you guys at 'Ard Boyz. To derail the thread a bit, Mal, what was your trustworthy horde list that you left behind in favor of the Wagons/Trukks? It sounds like a lot of marine and IG players built lists premised on anti-armour outright.


From the way it sounded, with minimal terrain to go around, a foot slogging horde would have fared even worse.

Veriamp wrote:I have emerged from my lurking to say one thing. When Mat taught the Necrons to feel, he taught me to love.

Whitedragon Paints! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/613745.page 
   
Made in us
Master Tormentor






Albuquerque, NM

Ugh, how I hate dark eldar for my nids lol.

That being said, well done! Sucks you had to face the 9 oblit, double lash list... but thus is life

Soon to play some 40k once more... :O 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Florida

Timmah wrote:How did that marines list do so well?



a good player used the list effectively.

Comparing tournament records is another form of e-peen measuring.
 
   
Made in us
Sinewy Scourge




Murfreesboro, TN

Zid wrote:
That being said, well done! Sucks you had to face the 9 oblit, double lash list... but thus is life


THAT list I was ready for and doing very well against until my dice decided they had had enough an where only willing to give me 1 or 2 pips per roll....

"I'm not much for prejudice, I prefer to judge people by whats inside, and how much fun it is to get to those insides." - Unknown Haemonculi 
   
Made in us
Speedy Swiftclaw Biker




Phoenix, AZ

Bummer about your dice, its frustrating when they go sour and by all rights you should be whooping ass.

Nice list, thanks for the write up.

   
Made in us
Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader





thehod wrote:
Timmah wrote:How did that marines list do so well?



a good player used the list effectively.


I would assume all the people there were good players...

Sorry but that list is just kinda unfocused. I don't doubt the players skill, but I would think this a good indication of how competitive the 40k tournament scene is.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/09/23 00:15:12


My 40k Theory Blog
 
   
Made in us
[ARTICLE MOD]
Fixture of Dakka






Chicago

Just because a list is unfocused doesn't mean it lacks the tools to do the job.

In fact, I think the mech guard list that won first place could also be called unfocused. It had three of nothing, and a good handful of single-choice items.

Spamming (if that's what you mean by focused) is a good way to stick yourself into a rock-paper-scissors situation. You end up hoping you get good matchups, because that's what you have the optimal tools to face.

But diversifying, as long as you do so wisely, with every unit not only having a purpose, but also some redundancy with other units, means that you're a lot less susceptible to a bad matchup. In some games, one unit might be less effective, in other games, a different unit is - but a smart player will recognize this and use the less effective units as the bait, or the acceptable losses.

   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran



Peoria, IL


I saw that army at the qualifer and again at the regional. Had the same sort of reaction to the list build as it certainly doesn't look all that great on paper. That said . .Fred got the most out of it .. sweeping both the finals and the regional I do believe. Course he's been one of the best 40k players for over a decade now. ( North of I-80 ) : ) A Thunderfire cannon ... Seriously Fred?




   
Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight





CT, USA

Redbeard wrote:Just because a list is unfocused doesn't mean it lacks the tools to do the job.

In fact, I think the mech guard list that won first place could also be called unfocused. It had three of nothing, and a good handful of single-choice items.

Spamming (if that's what you mean by focused) is a good way to stick yourself into a rock-paper-scissors situation. You end up hoping you get good matchups, because that's what you have the optimal tools to face.

But diversifying, as long as you do so wisely, with every unit not only having a purpose, but also some redundancy with other units, means that you're a lot less susceptible to a bad matchup. In some games, one unit might be less effective, in other games, a different unit is - but a smart player will recognize this and use the less effective units as the bait, or the acceptable losses.


Very well said Redbeard. There is nothing I can say that will express that sentiment better than you already have.

muwhe wrote:A Thunderfire cannon ... Seriously Fred?


Thunderfire is a dark horse in the codex, but can be a royal pain in the right situation. It fits well with his 'no focus' thing, as a str 6 template is good at almost everything, but best at none.

...one amongst untold billions.
DR:90S+G+M+B++I+Pw40k05+D++A++/hWD318R++T(G)DM+
 
   
Made in us
Focused Fire Warrior




Atlanta

olympia wrote:Mal, what was your trustworthy horde list that you left behind in favor of the Wagons/Trukks? It sounds like a lot of marine and IG players built lists premised on anti-armour outright.

Wasn't full out horde, had to speed things up a little bit to get games finished.

Preliminaries:
Warboss with PK/'Eavy, Cybork
Mek with KFF
10 Nobz, 8 'eavy armor, Painboy, 2 PK, Bosspole, Waaagh Banner, trukk
30 Shoota Boyz, Nob with PK/Bosspole
2x 30 Slugga Boyz, Nob with PK/Bosspole
20 Slugga Boyz, Nob with PK/Bosspole
12 warbikers, Nob with PK/Bosspole
Snikrot + 11 Kommandos (2x burnas)
2x 3 Killa Kan (2 shootas, 1 skorcha)
Results: Solid first place

Semi-finals:
Warboss with PK, Cybork
Mek with KFF
30 Shoota Boyz, Nob with PK/Bosspole
30 Slugga Boyz, Nob with PK/Bosspole
29 Slugga Boyz, Nob with PK/Bosspole
2x (10 Nobz, 8 'eavy armor, Painboy, 2 PK, Bosspole, trukk) -- troop one had Waaagh Banner
Snikrot + 11 Kommandos (2x burnas)
Zagstrukk + 15 stormboyz
12 warbikers, Nob with PK/Bosspole
Results: Faced off against a Kan wall in the first game, had no answer to them except outmaneuver for a tie. Ended up sling-shotting into 3rd anway.

Now then, this thread is more to discuss experiences at the finals, especially those of Gardeth, than it is to debate finer points of people's lists. olympia, if you wish to discuss my selections in greater detail, PM me and I'll either respond to a direct question, or create a thread for discussion. Sorry for the temporary derailment.

Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. -- Sun-tzu
The art of war is simple enough. Find out where your enemy is. Get at him as soon as you can. Strike him as hard as you can, and keep moving on. -- Ulysses S. Grant
Armies and records (w/l/d) (1v1 only)
Orks: ~8500pts -- 2009: 52/2/7 & 17/2/6 in RTTs -- Casual size 85% Painted
Empire: 7000pts -- 2009:19/6/11 & 3/1/5 in RTTs -- Casual size 50% Painted
Marines: 2000pts -- 2009: 4/2/0 -- 20% Painted
Kroot Mercenaries - ~1500pts -- 2009: 0/1/1
Vampire Counts: 1850pts -- 2009: 9/3/4 -- Paint? We're dead...
Skaven (Work in Progress) - ~4000pts -- 2012: 1/1/1 -- Unpainted
Tau (Work in Progress) - 1500pts -- 2012: 5/1/1 -- 20% Painted 
   
Made in us
Master Tormentor






Albuquerque, NM

Redbeard wrote:Just because a list is unfocused doesn't mean it lacks the tools to do the job.

In fact, I think the mech guard list that won first place could also be called unfocused. It had three of nothing, and a good handful of single-choice items.

Spamming (if that's what you mean by focused) is a good way to stick yourself into a rock-paper-scissors situation. You end up hoping you get good matchups, because that's what you have the optimal tools to face.

But diversifying, as long as you do so wisely, with every unit not only having a purpose, but also some redundancy with other units, means that you're a lot less susceptible to a bad matchup. In some games, one unit might be less effective, in other games, a different unit is - but a smart player will recognize this and use the less effective units as the bait, or the acceptable losses.


Very well said. I've had many situations where 1 defilers been better than 2, mostly because if they fail to kill it anyway it takes a lot more pewpew! Also losing 1 defiler doesn't hurt the list because it doesn't "rely" on it completely, like some lists (like lash/oblit spam)

Soon to play some 40k once more... :O 
   
Made in us
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation




Tennessee

Redbeard wrote:Just because a list is unfocused doesn't mean it lacks the tools to do the job.

In fact, I think the mech guard list that won first place could also be called unfocused. It had three of nothing, and a good handful of single-choice items.

Spamming (if that's what you mean by focused) is a good way to stick yourself into a rock-paper-scissors situation. You end up hoping you get good matchups, because that's what you have the optimal tools to face.

But diversifying, as long as you do so wisely, with every unit not only having a purpose, but also some redundancy with other units, means that you're a lot less susceptible to a bad matchup. In some games, one unit might be less effective, in other games, a different unit is - but a smart player will recognize this and use the less effective units as the bait, or the acceptable losses.


Quoted for the Truth! Excellent point


'Lo, there do I see my father. 'Lo, there do I see...My mother, and my sisters, and my brothers. 'Lo, there do I see...The line of my people...Back to the beginning. 'Lo, they do call to me. They bid me take my place among them. Iin the halls of Valhalla... Where the brave... May live... ...forever.
 
   
Made in us
Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader





Redbeard wrote:Just because a list is unfocused doesn't mean it lacks the tools to do the job.

In fact, I think the mech guard list that won first place could also be called unfocused. It had three of nothing, and a good handful of single-choice items.

Spamming (if that's what you mean by focused) is a good way to stick yourself into a rock-paper-scissors situation. You end up hoping you get good matchups, because that's what you have the optimal tools to face.

But diversifying, as long as you do so wisely, with every unit not only having a purpose, but also some redundancy with other units, means that you're a lot less susceptible to a bad matchup. In some games, one unit might be less effective, in other games, a different unit is - but a smart player will recognize this and use the less effective units as the bait, or the acceptable losses.



Spamming is not what I am talking about. But most people agree that taking 1 landraider to even a 1850 pt tournament is stupid because its going to get blown out of the water so fast. 5 TH/SS terminators is too few to have at 1850 pts. How is it suppose to survive at 2500.

With the bikers and marines on foot, he has a ton of foot sloggers that are going to get blown up by any mech list. I really don't see how this army has a chance against Lash Chaos.

And by the way spamming can be a good thing. Especially when the unit your spamming has a dual purpose. For example with SM, Dakka preds, HF/MM speeders, Typhoon speeders ect.

And really? a thunderfire cannon? One glance on it and its gone. That'll take all of one round of shooting.

Also, I do not have a high opinion of the winning army either. But I am sure that will bring even more hate towards me.

My 40k Theory Blog
 
   
Made in us
Agile Revenant Titan





Raeford NC

Gardeth: Thanks for the report. Very interesting read. How did you feel about the missions for the finals?

Timmah: Not bringing more heat on you, but there seems to be a trend to put down those who are winning in big tourneys. Take a gander at YTTH report regarding the winning tourney army and how many of the following posts pretty much parrot the original writer. It's pretty much the same drivel: 'your army sucks and I'd crush it, but I don't show up to any big tourneys as they all suck. Not constructive, rather destructive as it is creating a lot of ill will. It really seems that folks put all their faith into the army list and really don't want to give a player credit for really knowing how to play the game. Could it be possible that the Marine player simply outplayed his opponents?



Overall, I'm really glad to read that there was no real drama at this year's finals. This type of tourney had been developing a reputation for poor play. My second round experience this year really soured my feelings about it. We'll see what comes up next year.

For all the GW hate, they've done something right as I've been playing 40K since 1989. Very excited for 8th edition! 
   
Made in us
Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader





Sarigar wrote:Gardeth: Thanks for the report. Very interesting read. How did you feel about the missions for the finals?

Timmah: Not bringing more heat on you, but there seems to be a trend to put down those who are winning in big tourneys. Take a gander at YTTH report regarding the winning tourney army and how many of the following posts pretty much parrot the original writer. It's pretty much the same drivel: 'your army sucks and I'd crush it, but I don't show up to any big tourneys as they all suck. Not constructive, rather destructive as it is creating a lot of ill will. It really seems that folks put all their faith into the army list and really don't want to give a player credit for really knowing how to play the game. Could it be possible that the Marine player simply outplayed his opponents?

Overall, I'm really glad to read that there was no real drama at this year's finals. This type of tourney had been developing a reputation for poor play. My second round experience this year really soured my feelings about it. We'll see what comes up next year.


It doesn't matter the hobby, people winning tournaments or placing high always have their skill, lists ect challenged, discussed. I see no problem with doing that in 40k also. Look at any other hobby. MTG, most video game competitions ect. People are very critical of the top people. Its the only way to innovate and get better. If all we do is talk about the people who finished poor and how their lists could be better, then people only improve up to the level of competition.

By questioning/being critical of the best people, that is how you push competition forward. That is how you innovate and become even better.

I see nothing wrong with discussing/being critical of the top lists. Sure you guys can praise them endlessly and say how amazing they are, but you know what? They already know that! They just won (or placed high) at ard boyz!
Why does it matter if I point out how good his list is (it isn't imo)? He should already know its good since he won/placed high. The real question is where does he go from here? How does he get better? I think most of these top players would be the first to agree that they can definitely get better from where they are.

My 40k Theory Blog
 
   
Made in pt
Tea-Kettle of Blood




Sarigar wrote:Gardeth: Thanks for the report. Very interesting read. How did you feel about the missions for the finals?

Timmah: Not bringing more heat on you, but there seems to be a trend to put down those who are winning in big tourneys. Take a gander at YTTH report regarding the winning tourney army and how many of the following posts pretty much parrot the original writer. It's pretty much the same drivel: 'your army sucks and I'd crush it, but I don't show up to any big tourneys as they all suck. Not constructive, rather destructive as it is creating a lot of ill will. It really seems that folks put all their faith into the army list and really don't want to give a player credit for really knowing how to play the game. Could it be possible that the Marine player simply outplayed his opponents?


Sorry to go OT for a whille, but could someone point me to this report? My search-fu has failed me yet again...
   
Made in us
Agile Revenant Titan





Raeford NC

Timmah: You last post clarified what you are looking for. Your previous comments (which did not) made implications that lists in general were not competitive, which is why the Marine and IG players placed so high. I'm getting the feeling that this uber competitive enviornment that is so highly regarded exists solely on the internet since no Indy GT, GT or Ard Boyz seems to have any competitive armies. Your previous posts were pretty much written in a similar fashion to what has been going around for the past year or so. IE: the person only won b/c the tourney was not really a competitive tourney.

Rather than implying a Thunderfire simply sucks, how about asking why the player chose that piece and how effective it was in play. Worth the points or no? I, too, am at a loss as to the effectiveness of a Thunderfire (RE: Thudd Gun). I just think there are better ways to communicate your intent.



For all the GW hate, they've done something right as I've been playing 40K since 1989. Very excited for 8th edition! 
   
Made in us
[ARTICLE MOD]
Fixture of Dakka






Chicago

Timmah wrote:
It doesn't matter the hobby, people winning tournaments or placing high always have their skill, lists ect challenged, discussed. I see no problem with doing that in 40k also. Look at any other hobby. MTG, most video game competitions ect. People are very critical of the top people. Its the only way to innovate and get better. If all we do is talk about the people who finished poor and how their lists could be better, then people only improve up to the level of competition.

By questioning/being critical of the best people, that is how you push competition forward. That is how you innovate and become even better.

I see nothing wrong with discussing/being critical of the top lists. Sure you guys can praise them endlessly and say how amazing they are, but you know what? They already know that! They just won (or placed high) at ard boyz!


I'm with you so far.

Why does it matter if I point out how good his list is (it isn't imo)? ... The real question is where does he go from here? How does he get better?


This is where you lose me. So far, the only comment you've made about his list is saying it's "unfocused". That's not worthwhile criticism. That's not going to help him get better. That's not going to help anyone else get better, and it's not going to "push competition forward". You made no objective observations about any specific part of his list, all you did is drop one very vague comment.

One very vague comment, I may add, that I've already commented on. But rather than take my analysis of why unfocused may be good, and continue that interesting topic, your refutation simply said, "he's got too many footsloggers, he'll lose to mech"... Seeing as how he didn't lose to mech, there must be something going on with his list that you're not getting.

A Thunderfire Cannon? Yes, all it takes is one good hit to waste it. But you have to randomize what you hit between the cannon and the techmarine (with a 2+ save) and the techmarine can also reinforce one piece of cover, so he may easily be sitting in 3+ terrain. With a larger operating range than most weapons, the Thunderfire can sit in a corner, and since everyone competitive is running either mech, or meltas to kill mech, what are they going to shoot it with, without investing specific resources to do so.

Meanwhile, it adds good matchups versus several different lists, including guard and orks. So, why not take a thunderfire?

Looking at Darth's list, every single choice has a good matchup against a popular list.

Librarian - null zone trumps daemons. Vortex does something useful in case you're not playing daemons.
TH/SS termies - good all-around unit.
Redeemer - gets termies where they need to be, has multimelta vs. mech
Dreadnoughts - good versus nob bikers and bloodcrushers
Lascannon/melta marines - scoring choices, but lascannons have game against mech, as do meltas
MM attack bikes - deals with mech
Landspeeder typhoon - fast unit, multiple missiles, good vs horde, or mech
Devs - missile launchers are both cheap, decent against mech, and blasts versus hordes
Pred - lots of dakka, good all around, cheap.
Thunderfire - as above

It looks unfocused, but nearly every single unit has tools to deal with mechanized lists, which were expected in abundance. It has key pieces to handle specific builds (dreads & null zone vs fatecrusher, for example).

So, your turn Timmah - you want to make this 'better' - what would you change? What do you cut, what advantage do you get by cutting it, and what extra weakness do you invite by doing the same?

   
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The Sea of goo marine list has served me well for quite some time. It is the Millinieum Falcon of lists. It doesn't look like much but it's got it where it counts. I think the best thing about the list is that I can lose anything in it in any given game and not hurt the army. There is no linchpin that holds everything together. It's like a swirling mass of stuff each designed to counter a certain list archtype out there. Redbeard has hit most of it on the head. Most people have trouble identifying the units in the list which will hurt them most and there is redundency built in everywhere. It's gotten me to 2 top 10 finishes in the Ard Boyz finals. I like it for what it's worth.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/09/23 12:44:12


 
   
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Redbeard wrote:
So, your turn Timmah - you want to make this 'better' - what would you change? What do you cut, what advantage do you get by cutting it, and what extra weakness do you invite by doing the same?


Alright, so first off, please don't take this the wrong way, I am not saying his current list isn't good/doesn't work. I'm just saying it could get better.

Librarian – Termie armour, storm shield, null zone, vortex of doom
5 Th+Ss Termies
Land Raider Redeemer – multi-melta
x2 Dreadnought
x4 10 marines w/4 lascannons +melta
x2 Razorback w/ assault cannons
3 attack bikes
3 multi-melta attack bikes
Landspeeder typhoon
10 devastators – 4 missile launchers
Predator Destructor
Thunderfire cannon

First step would be to add TH/SS Termies

10x TH/SS terminators (now they can actually threaten the big units instead of getting charged by something and killed before they can attack.
Give them a Landraider as a dedicated transport and then pick up a 2nd one so that you can combat squad the terminators. And you actually have more than 1 heavy armor that your opponent needs to fire at.

LRC vs LRR this has been done to death. I still prefer the LRC because if it gets immobilized its still useful. You can interchange them if you want.

2x dreadnoughts, still solid, they help supplement the terminators

4 (10x marines, 2x razorbacks)
We had this discussion on dakka a little while ago whether its worth it to go razorback over rhino. The conclusion was that the razorback really doesn't add enough make leaving the other marines behind. Unless you like paying 110ish pts for 1 lascannon shot a turn. (I don't think most people do.

So by switching this to 3 (10x marines w/MM, MG + rhino) We have a lot more threatening shots at close range. This ofc loses us 4 lascannon shots a turn. Options are, deal with this in heavy support, fast attack or change up your current dread config.

I would say, deal with it in fast attack mainly. And here we have the typhoon. 90 pts for ML attacks and it can move 12" a turn. I'd cut all the attack bikes, since these do the job better when at longer range. Attack bikes are good, but with everything else you have being in a tank, you don't want to give your opponent something to shoot at. So 6x Typhoon speeders set up in units of 2.

Predator destructor vs thunderfire. I have a real problem with the thunderfire. Sure its good at killing xenos but its just too fragile. I would say just add the 2nd destructor cause its going to kill close to the same number of xenos each turn. (unless you have a lash of submission.

So

Librarian w/ terminator armor
10x TH/SS Terminators w/LRC
3x (10x marines w/MM, MG, Rhino)
2x Dreadnough MM,CCW
6x Typhoon
2x Predator destructor
1x LRC

Spend the last 110ish pts however you want. You can even use it to make your predators into the las cannon variety thus making up for all the ones you lost. Also then some typhoons can be dropped if you think you really need the attack bikes.

See in this list, everything is the best (close to the best) at doing its job and you have redundancy. If you kill one thing, more are there to replace it. With the previous list, all you need to do is identify the things that hurt you the most and deal with those first.

As Darth said himself, people sometimes have a hard time doing that. But personally I would rather built a list that wins on its own strength instead of one that capitalizes if an opponent makes a mistake.

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Let me also say that Gardeth and Malecus are great players. In both cases I got a bunch of advantages in going first and deploying on the side with terrain, especially in Gardeths case. If his Raiders are on my side then he has better cover and more 4+ saves. In Malecus's case I got to shoot the Lootas first before they shot the T-fire and that made a huge difference. It would have been easy for the game to swing the other way if they got to choose sides and go first. In the Ard Boyz finals there is more than just the lists, there are a bunch of small dice rolls that can make all the difference.

Timmah if you think my list is bunk that is fine by me. I would actually prefer that people pay it no mind and think it's something they could role right over. If that's your opinion I'm ok with that.
   
Made in us
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DarthDiggler wrote:

Timmah if you think my list is bunk that is fine by me. I would actually prefer that people pay it no mind and think it's something they could role right over. If that's your opinion I'm ok with that.


Not even close to what I said.

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