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Basically my prediction came true. GW doesn't know how to handle 2 things:
Big stuff
Hybrid units (that can shoot and punch)

So many of those are unusable. Especially ones that are low BS and have heavy weapons. Like the soulgrinder for example. Why is it so damn expensive? Because he can shoot and punch. Sure. However how do you get the damn thing in combat. If you move, he shoots on a 5+. That's so bad. If he gets in combat, he does sub-par damage and can't even shoot. So half the value goes out the window.

Same thing with the knights. They make stuff way too expensive for being able to do 2 things, when most of the time you won't be able to do one or the other. Sigh.........

I just saw in another thread, thanks for the info Piñacolada. Well that looks awful, I wasn't really hyped at first, seeing that GW prefers developing redundant units like the Armiger than give us a damn transport, but now this looks like a total waste of time and ressources. Glad I have my Dark Angels force to change from the faction GW is seemingly hating right now.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Basically my prediction came true. GW doesn't know how to handle 2 things:
Big stuff
Hybrid units (that can shoot and punch)

So many of those are unusable. Especially ones that are low BS and have heavy weapons. Like the soulgrinder for example. Why is it so damn expensive? Because he can shoot and punch. Sure. However how do you get the damn thing in combat. If you move, he shoots on a 5+. That's so bad. If he gets in combat, he does sub-par damage and can't even shoot. So half the value goes out the window.

Same thing with the knights. They make stuff way too expensive for being able to do 2 things, when most of the time you won't be able to do one or the other. Sigh.........

Do the warhammer community bristle at such suggestions. If they listen to feedback is it worth showing them a spreadsheet and explaining the concerns. Could they maybe not realise. I wonder if you said hey I want to help you with balance have you considered the following?

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Basically my prediction came true. GW doesn't know how to handle 2 things:
Big stuff
Hybrid units (that can shoot and punch)

So many of those are unusable. Especially ones that are low BS and have heavy weapons. Like the soulgrinder for example. Why is it so damn expensive? Because he can shoot and punch. Sure. However how do you get the damn thing in combat. If you move, he shoots on a 5+. That's so bad. If he gets in combat, he does sub-par damage and can't even shoot. So half the value goes out the window.

Same thing with the knights. They make stuff way too expensive for being able to do 2 things, when most of the time you won't be able to do one or the other. Sigh.........

I get that and I agree with you by and large but why is the contemptor so much more reasonably costed then? They're the same unit basically so why is one like 70 points more than the other even though the synergy is worse?

So, colour me completely unimpressed. Surprised - definitely not, but definitely unimpressed.

240 for double melta is just ridiculously overpriced when compared to other options.

I mean - you can even get a 5 man combi melta sternguard squad or a squad of devestators with 4 multi meltas AND a drop pod for 18-21 points more. Would you take either of those units? (using drop pod as an example cos... lol.)

You could also get 10 Eldar Fire Dragons for 240 points.

As i, and many have said before, compared to the Contemptor and Relic Contemptor, there is just no point. People were also comparing it to the Redemptor before, and now, that even looks like a fantastic option vs this.

The point is, the platform is just massively massively overcosted, for what is basically 2 30" melta shots a turn - until it gets blasted off the table by turn 2 due to only having 12 wounds.

Maybe we should all send emails to the FAQ email address, asking them something like "For what reason, in a matched play game, would i take a Knight Armiger over any other melta unit in the game?"

I think the Onager is still the best comparison. It's so much worse compared to how much better damage the Onager can do.

One thing that might have been missed, which i expected anyway, is to do with the unit size.

They are 1-3 per unit, HOWEVER, they only deploy as 1 unit. After deployment they act as single units. This means you won't be able to stack future Knight/current Admech stratagems on the entire unit.

Might have been slightly more "worth it" if they remained as a single unit.

This basically makes taking them in a unit of 3 completely and utterly worthless, as it means you're missing out on 3 valuable CP.

Well spin my nipple nuts and send me to Alaska. Very disappointing indeed.

In fairness, these are just box rules for a unit that clearly hasn't been tested that much. When the inevitable imperial knight codex comes, I think we can expect they will be improved. Hopefully with more options, like decent anti infantry.

SilverAlien wrote:
In fairness, these are just box rules for a unit that clearly hasn't been tested that much. When the inevitable imperial knight codex comes, I think we can expect they will be improved. Hopefully with more options, like decent anti infantry.

More main weapons, i agree that will happen.

I very very much doubt that anything else will change though - especially as all codices are meant to be out within the next 3 months or so.

Still can't believe they would release an Imperial Knights codex, with what, two different boxes of units ? Why not write a codex: Assassinorum while we're at it ? I wish GW would tone down the love for the Imperium for a while and stop developing useless stuff nobody asked like the codex Custodes or this new mini-Knight. Every time they do this it hurts thinking about the ressources that could've gone into something needed and useful for more people.

SilverAlien wrote:
In fairness, these are just box rules for a unit that clearly hasn't been tested that much. When the inevitable imperial knight codex comes, I think we can expect they will be improved. Hopefully with more options, like decent anti infantry.

That's true. Look at how many times the prices of units in Dark Imperium have changed since that box came out. I am hoping for a decent decrease in price for the Armiger.

LOL. I can take almost two Icarus Crawlers for one Armiger. Or a unit of 4x Dragoon. Nope. Not buying. Nope.

Played a friendly game so tried about a bunch of bad units:
Servitors. "Worst unit in the game". Yeah I basically agree. Can't shoot, can't punch, can't survive, costs 12-14 pts each. At least "worst in our army"
Ruststalkers. Complete trash. Got distroyed by daemonettes, who are complete trash in their own right.
Snipers. I have 5 snipers. Did 0 wounds with them. Done and done. You CANNOT have that much points doing jack gak.
Plasma vanguard. Meh. They don't do damage and get killed like flies.
Breachers. Not terrible. Good for unorthodox screen. People tend to have anti infantry stuff to clear screens. Then they run into those and don't do anything to them.
Infiltrators. Ugh. They rely on making a 9'' charge. Very meh.
Dominus in general. No. Just no. 125 pts for re-roll 1s. That's basically all you're getting.
Vindicare assas-whahaha. WOW. I remember all the time "hey, you have a problem with characters? Take a vindicare". Dude. He has ONE SHOT. ONE. 90 pts??? ONE? WHAT? It's HEAVY? WHAT?
Other assassins did good.
Inquisitor did his job well. Made skitarii not run away and turned off strong overwatch for melee dudes to make it in.

Sounds like an incredible feat of bad luck with your snipers, I use two every game and while sometimes they aren't good, most of the time they're incredible, and they've managed me a victory twice by shooting the warlord from all across the table.

Ruststalkers are only good when rolling 6 to Wound... And charging first... So they're not really good usually, no :(

I love Infiltrators, they can turn the tide with a little luck. They're excellent as anti-T3 trash infantry.

Domini are nice, just use their weapons ?

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Vindicare assas-whahaha. WOW. I remember all the time "hey, you have a problem with characters? Take a vindicare". Dude. He has ONE SHOT. ONE. 90 pts??? ONE? WHAT? It's HEAVY? WHAT?

I distinctly remember saying that if you do have to take a sniper, two Arquebuses in a minimum Ranger squad is ideal. And this was before their dropped to 7 points apiece.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Played a friendly game so tried about a bunch of bad units:
Servitors. "Worst unit in the game". Yeah I basically agree. Can't shoot, can't punch, can't survive, costs 12-14 pts each. At least "worst in our army"
Ruststalkers. Complete trash. Got distroyed by daemonettes, who are complete trash in their own right.
Snipers. I have 5 snipers. Did 0 wounds with them. Done and done. You CANNOT have that much points doing jack gak.
Plasma vanguard. Meh. They don't do damage and get killed like flies.
Breachers. Not terrible. Good for unorthodox screen. People tend to have anti infantry stuff to clear screens. Then they run into those and don't do anything to them.
Infiltrators. Ugh. They rely on making a 9'' charge. Very meh.
Dominus in general. No. Just no. 125 pts for re-roll 1s. That's basically all you're getting.
Vindicare assas-whahaha. WOW. I remember all the time "hey, you have a problem with characters? Take a vindicare". Dude. He has ONE SHOT. ONE. 90 pts??? ONE? WHAT? It's HEAVY? WHAT?
Other assassins did good.
Inquisitor did his job well. Made skitarii not run away and turned off strong overwatch for melee dudes to make it in.

While I agree with most of your points I strongly have to disagree with Plasma Vanguards. While they are squishy indeed, they can really dish out the hurt. I love them

I just really wish we would have some sort of Skitarii HQ for rerolls, because as you said, a Dominus for 125pts is just bonkers...

Snipers? What bad luck? 3+ re-roll 1s, 3+, 4/5++. D3 damage. ONE shot each. You'll usually do 0 wounds with your 30 pts weapon (I can't be bothered to check the pts as I now hate it)

What dominus weapons? Aka volkite? With it's massive 0 AP? Roll 6's to wound or bust. Phosphor serpenta is a joke, so I take stubber in case I get stuck in combat. Erad ray is just worse than Volkite.

What do you find so good about plasma vanguard. It's just 2 shots. I shot some marines with overcharge. I killed 2 marines with only a bit bellow average luck with 4 plasmas and popping stratagem with dominus next to them. Then they died like flies the second they got shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Suzuteo wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Vindicare assas-whahaha. WOW. I remember all the time "hey, you have a problem with characters? Take a vindicare". Dude. He has ONE SHOT. ONE. 90 pts??? ONE? WHAT? It's HEAVY? WHAT?

I distinctly remember saying that if you do have to take a sniper, two Arquebuses in a minimum Ranger squad is ideal. And this was before their dropped to 7 points apiece.

Well I had 4 skitarii snipers and Vindicare. That's what. 220-something points that did nothing?

Well, yeah, that's horrible luck you had, seriously. Mine get their points back 70% of the time, on the top of my head.

Volkite is all or nothing, that's for sure. But the Ray is better in every way but range in my opinion, killed a Dreadnought on overwatch with that thing, and a good amount of multi-wound models/characters. Yeah don't ever pick the Serpenta, agreed. The Stubber is great, it killed an Eversor in one go once when it engaged my lord, in CC.

Again. It wasn't horrible luck. Bellow average - sure. But everyone and their mother has invul saves. And when you go bellow average and do NOTHING with 220 points - you don't take that unit ever again. It takes about 6 shots to kill a T4 4++ dude. That's not acceptable. Especially when that 30 pts weapon melts as it must be in the open to shoot

And volkite is just straight up better than erad, sorry. Stats prove it. And I don't want to waste any more pts on that overpriced piece of garbage... i took 2 to have aura in base and in my silly plasma vanguard deepstrike. 1 is... fine... I guess...

 Aaranis wrote:
Still can't believe they would release an Imperial Knights codex, with what, two different boxes of units ? Why not write a codex: Assassinorum while we're at it ? I wish GW would tone down the love for the Imperium for a while and stop developing useless stuff nobody asked like the codex Custodes or this new mini-Knight. Every time they do this it hurts thinking about the ressources that could've gone into something needed and useful for more people.

At this point, you're probably looking at three different boxes of Armigers minimum. The shoulderpads and weapons are all one sprue, with the Mechanicus iconography being on this variant. I'd expect to see one with Imperial iconography...and one with Chaos iconography.

Why? Because all the rumors so far have been talking about a Knights Codex, not an Imperial Knights codex. Chaos Knights didn't have their rules put into the CSM book did they?
All it takes is three lists in there: one for Questoris Traitoris, Questoris Mechanicus, and Questoris Imperialis and bam. All of a sudden that book becomes a pretty good investment for anyone who wants to run a Knight.

Also worth mentioning that "Questoris Traitoris" could be opened up to Genestealer Cults as well since we know there's been Genestealer corrupted Knightly Houses.

I told you all that’s about how much it would cost

But not how much it SHOULD cost

My rangers have always performed wonderfully in my games. If anything, my onager is disappointing with it doing 0 wounds in a 4~ turn game.

 kastelen wrote:
My rangers have always performed wonderfully in my games. If anything, my onager is disappointing with it doing 0 wounds in a 4~ turn game.

If the average mathematical performance of each unit is a fact, we can't deny nobody have the same averages as the others so far

points will abjust and? it will cost 200 and? what this thing provide even to knight codex?

Rerolls? buffs? mortals something does it provide something run charge? fall back shoot anti horde what 2 melta for 200 points spare me with ad mech enough

Honestly, I don't know where they could go with this without giving it some really new ability. In terms of justifying just the points, this guy needs to shoot as well as a Crawler and hit as hard as a Dragoon with CDI. Because there is no inherent advantage in this game for taking one unit when two will suffice, given the structural advantage given to bodies.

Suzuteo wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Vindicare assas-whahaha. WOW. I remember all the time "hey, you have a problem with characters? Take a vindicare". Dude. He has ONE SHOT. ONE. 90 pts??? ONE? WHAT? It's HEAVY? WHAT?

I distinctly remember saying that if you do have to take a sniper, two Arquebuses in a minimum Ranger squad is ideal. And this was before their dropped to 7 points apiece.

I've found my arquebus snipers to be really useful.

Last game an onager left a LRBT on 2 wounds, quick bit of sniper fire (2 shots) and it's gone.

They've put wounds on Chimeras and Flyrants, not to mention their IG commander kills, Daemon Herald kills, Ork Warboss / Weirdboy kills, etc... and that's just for me.

They also force your opponent to hide characters away from line of sight to an arquebus, which I can use to make their characters not be where they want to be, whilst I whittle down elite infantry / vehicles with them in the meantime.

That is a surprise. I've run Arquebus since before the Codex and I must say, they almost always fail. Even with Cawl. Far too pricey for so little return.

I think you guys are forgetting the armigers are move 14”. That means it’ll likely get to use it’s cc weapons, that or with 12 wounds and an invuln draw enough fire so that the knight (or B.B. in my case) survives