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I guess? I'm not sure how much nostalgia is a factor given they're doing new stuff for a neglected pamphlet faction out of the gate.

And I definitely don't think veteran players are all of the same universal mindset. it's a clash for some.

I started in 3rd edition- a giant ice bear is pretty neutral to me. It's potentially neat as a model, but GWs rules approach to big stuff generally makes them pretty crappy and underwhelming.

Agreed - Kislev, Cathay, Cahos Dwarfs and anyone else in the Far East have alot of potential freedom for CA to suggest things to GW - as we saw with Vampire Coast.

Still wish that they had done VC models for the new Soulblight - plenty of room for Vampire pirates and they are already mentioned in the AOS lore.

Those stupid boat tree-men with cannons are exactly what I fear will happen to TOW

Goose LeChance wrote:
Those stupid boat tree-men with cannons are exactly what I fear will happen to TOW

Vampire pirates with Necrofex Colossus (the wrecked remains of a ship necromantically risen alongside the dead crew) would be AWESOME and something I'd love to see in TOW.

its dark, grim and sparks exactly something a insane vampire with an abundance of dead corpses and dead wood would do.

When you have football hooligan Orcs with goblin obsessed squigs who fling hang glider goblins at people and trolls vomitting on everything ever and everyone except the stunties have war mages, WHFB was always full of big spectacular things to spice up the rank and file and thats what makes it such a good place from a lot of peoples view point, and I'd be very glad if TOW kept that magic.

It was just the balance (lolsixdicepurplesun) and poor marketing/monetary requirement to play which killed WHFB.

 Gir Spirit Bane wrote:


its dark, grim

If you say so.

Hopefully they put them in AoS instead.

Goose LeChance wrote:
Those stupid boat tree-men with cannons are exactly what I fear will happen to TOW

That's something that's been part of the setting since at least 2012, it's not a new thing made for TW:WH. It's already the sort of thing that could appear in TOW as it has been part of WHFB for years.

Was that also when the Empire started producing mecha horses? 8th edition sucked in many ways. It also failed.

TOW is set in an even earlier time period anyway.

If this turns out to be AoS on square trays... RIP.

Goose LeChance wrote:

 Gir Spirit Bane wrote:


its dark, grim

If you say so.

Hopefully they put them in AoS instead.

No no no, Vampirates are WHFB thing, only the Old World can do justice to the concept of a vampirate. AoS would never dare infringe on the best army to ever grace White dwarf pages once in 200something.

Goose LeChance wrote:
Was that also when the Empire started producing mecha horses? 8th edition sucked in many ways. It also failed.

TOW is set in an even earlier time period anyway.

If this turns out to be AoS on square trays... RIP.

What's the problem with them having a Clockwork Horse? The Empire already had Landships, a Steam Tank and various other high-fantasy things like Griffons. The Horse wasn't some big departure from the already established elements of the setting, especially when things like Dwarf Gyrocopters were around since 4th edition. While something specific like the Mechanical horse is unlikely to appear in TOW, it isn't going to be some huge change from the amount of high-fantasy elements when compared to WHFB because of that earlier time period.

8th edition didn't fail because of it's lore. It failed from being poorly managed regarding the amount of attention it received.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Goose LeChance wrote:
Was that also when the Empire started producing mecha horses? 8th edition sucked in many ways. It also failed.

TOW is set in an even earlier time period anyway.

If this turns out to be AoS on square trays... RIP.

What's the problem with them having a Clockwork Horse? The Empire already had Landships, a Steam Tank and various other high-fantasy things like Griffons. The Horse wasn't some big departure from the already established elements of the setting, especially when things like Dwarf Gyrocopters were around since 4th edition. While something specific like the Mechanical horse is unlikely to appear in TOW, it isn't going to be some huge change from the amount of high-fantasy elements when compared to WHFB because of that earlier time period.

8th edition didn't fail because of it's lore. It failed from being poorly managed regarding the amount of attention it received.

There were 8(?) steam tanks in the world. They couldn't be reproduced, yet somehow the Empire had engineered mecha horses.

Just because something has high-fantasy elements, it shouldn't mean anything goes. There are orks and magic in 40K too, what's the point, is that high fantasy?

In the end I don't care, just hoping they give me some Empire models that aren't standing on a bunch of junk while posing for a photo shoot.

Goose LeChance wrote:
Those stupid boat tree-men with cannons are exactly what I fear will happen to TOW

You mean the Necrofex Colossus that came from Monstrus Arcanum in Warhammer Fantasy?

Goose LeChance wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Goose LeChance wrote:
Was that also when the Empire started producing mecha horses? 8th edition sucked in many ways. It also failed.

TOW is set in an even earlier time period anyway.

If this turns out to be AoS on square trays... RIP.

What's the problem with them having a Clockwork Horse? The Empire already had Landships, a Steam Tank and various other high-fantasy things like Griffons. The Horse wasn't some big departure from the already established elements of the setting, especially when things like Dwarf Gyrocopters were around since 4th edition. While something specific like the Mechanical horse is unlikely to appear in TOW, it isn't going to be some huge change from the amount of high-fantasy elements when compared to WHFB because of that earlier time period.

8th edition didn't fail because of it's lore. It failed from being poorly managed regarding the amount of attention it received.

There were 8(?) steam tanks in the world. They couldn't be reproduced, yet somehow the Empire had engineered mecha horses.

Just because something has high-fantasy elements, it shouldn't mean anything goes. There are orks and magic in 40K too, what's the point, is that high fantasy?

In the end I don't care, just hoping they give me some Empire models that aren't standing on a bunch of junk while posing for a photo shoot.

I just want a Freeguild hero/general mounted on a horse. Is that so much to ask for?

 GrosseSax wrote:


I just want a Freeguild hero/general mounted on a horse. Is that so much to ask for?

Yes, the only options now are robot horses or Griffons.

Maybe some mutant chicken-lizards or Kangaroos?

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:
The elemental bear bothers me a lot more than the cannon-sled. Really seems like the OW will be as much high fantasy as AOS

Ice magic has been part of the Kislev lore for a long time though, while a giant magical ice bear is a bit different, they had stuff like an enchanted Ice Palace already.

Of course it was, but when you look at the old kislev range, it wasn't nearly as present as it seems it will be in the new range

Goose LeChance wrote:
There are orks and magic in 40K too, what's the point, is that high fantasy?
.

Um... yes? or did you think the wizards casting spells powerful enough to mind control entire systems, sword-wielding daemons of blood and wrath, etc were science?

 streetsamurai wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:
The elemental bear bothers me a lot more than the cannon-sled. Really seems like the OW will be as much high fantasy as AOS

Ice magic has been part of the Kislev lore for a long time though, while a giant magical ice bear is a bit different, they had stuff like an enchanted Ice Palace already.

Of course it was, but when you look at the old kislev range, it wasn't nearly as present as it seems it will be in the new range

Warhammer is a curious beast.

The original tabletop game gave, at least to me and many others, a very "low magic" feel to itself. Yes you had wizards and spells, but by and large most units were sword and shield, bow and arrow. Even for the fantasy races that populated the world. The dragons were thin serpents and it had an "old" magic kind of appearance to it.

However if you read the lore and stories those wizards were casting huge spells; there were huge dragons; skyships; vast sea fleets; huge battles; living battering rams and siege towers powered by the forces of Chaos being torn into by an indominable dwarf and his godlike axe. The lore was very much high fantasy.

There was also a big lull in Old World models for a long while,but steadily they were getting more and more high fantasty. We got dancing aelves for the witch aelves; we got serpent riding skeletons.


I think simply that both the ability to create big models and the creative desires, skills, inspirations and materials have changed. Old World was a product of its time and its materials. It advanced and had AoS not appeared I think we'd still be seeing the same kind of models appearing. Some of it new dieas like endless spells; others being things that have been there for ages, but which were just never practical to create. like chunky thick dragons and huge warbeasts and monsters. Heck Greater Demons were nearly always towering monstrosities in the lore and yet on tabletop were quite modest.


Again AoS feels different but part of that is the simple fact that plastic and market and technology and the style have all changed over the years

Mr Morden wrote:

Spoiler:

Cronch wrote:

Voss wrote:
Hrm. Guess I'm just confused about people's recollection of WFB and perception of AoS.

Aside from the early days when they didn't have the plastic tech to do big centerpiece models, Warhammer had them. It definitely wasn't strictly a late 8th phenomen.

And just because they don't rank up, doesn't mean that AoS is exclusively or heavily focused on big models rather than model count.

Giant ice bears aside, the Kislev stuff that TW3 is showing off is very infantry focused, very traditional units for the region with the usual warhammer touches.

Even the "big" centerpieces were a lot smaller than AoS centerpieces like Teclis or Stardrake. It was very much 2010s when the big plastic kits started rolling in.
However I do agree that GW always wanted to do big centerpiece models, they just had to keep them small. Problem is, TOW is a game marketed to the 'veteran" players who want to relieve their nostalgia, so making "modern size" centerpieces clashes with their desire.

As a "Veteran player" enjoying my nostalga I enjoy Total War and also the big models - as you say they made them as soon as they could, often suggesting ways of converting diosaurs and the like to eneble big monsters to be used. There is a huge misconception that Warhammer was low magic with a bit of magic and occassional monsters when WFB was always high fantasy full of powerful magic and monsters.

Also Total War battles look more like large scale clashes where such large entities would make sense. For me at least.

It's indeed kind of interesting how the move to plastic (which largely allowed for the larger pieces in a more accessible way - no Chicken Dragons or hugely expensive FW kits for special occasions) changed this field. The first plastic Giant being significantly bigger than the one before. But would they have made one the size of those new "Mega Gargants" from the Sons of Behemat at the time if the could? The move to plastic not only made it possible, but it has also simply allowed increasingly large kits with increasingly large pricetags, not necessarily in proportion to their size. Simultaneously, big figures kind of had to become more normal in game terms to pay off the mould costs compared to the cheaper metal figures of the past I suppose. Though I guess it won't have mattered if people didn't like them, and as someone who started WHFB with Lizardmen I won't say I don't like big dinos too. But my old metal Steggie feels quite large enough compared to the Skinks it's walking next to, and suitably impressive pricely because nothing was incredibly huge. (Plus it has a pleasant weight; big chonk of metal that it is!)

Goose LeChance wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Spoiler:

Goose LeChance wrote:
Was that also when the Empire started producing mecha horses? 8th edition sucked in many ways. It also failed.

TOW is set in an even earlier time period anyway.

If this turns out to be AoS on square trays... RIP.

What's the problem with them having a Clockwork Horse? The Empire already had Landships, a Steam Tank and various other high-fantasy things like Griffons. The Horse wasn't some big departure from the already established elements of the setting, especially when things like Dwarf Gyrocopters were around since 4th edition. While something specific like the Mechanical horse is unlikely to appear in TOW, it isn't going to be some huge change from the amount of high-fantasy elements when compared to WHFB because of that earlier time period.

8th edition didn't fail because of it's lore. It failed from being poorly managed regarding the amount of attention it received.

There were 8(?) steam tanks in the world. They couldn't be reproduced, yet somehow the Empire had engineered mecha horses.

Just because something has high-fantasy elements, it shouldn't mean anything goes. There are orks and magic in 40K too, what's the point, is that high fantasy?

In the end I don't care, just hoping they give me some Empire models that aren't standing on a bunch of junk while posing for a photo shoot.

In addition, an actually functional robot horse seems... pretty advanced? The running motion of a 4-legged animal is incredibly complex, and while robots with such motions can be made now (apparently: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThEcqzGigbg ), it seems very out of place within the overall level of technology in the Empire. Had it been the shell of what looked like a barded horse but with wheels coming out of it, I'd have been all for it as a weird and not particularly useful thing some wacky engineer put together. It feels more AoS or even AdMech than WHFB Empire, especially for something that's truly mechanical (given that other mechanical feats I can think of tend to incorporate some magic along the way).

The problem of warhammer fantasy is the hard on so many people has with the fething Empire, the most boring faction of the setting.


In all my games with my friends, without any "I would have liked to be playing historicals but I have no one to play with" empire player, the game never felt low fantasy.

But thats what happens when you have lizardmen riding giant dinosaurs with solar-lasers on their backs agaisnt frankestein rats with miniguns and giant abominations with energy-cannons.

Now I'll say: It would be better for factions to remain as people expect them to look but anyone that expects that stuff made in 2021 by 2021's GW to be just as they were 20 years ago is gonna be dissapointed.

The mechanical horse was an ugly model and it sticked like a sore thumb. The concept art with a steam horse with wheels was much better. Now, Skullcrushers have always been sci-fi. If you look behind the armor, they have cables and connections but they never looked off because the "scifi" parts were hidden under the armor and they are for the demonic faction. But the Soulgrinder? That looks like ass in middle of a Fantasy battle. Too scifi.

One of my earliest Whfb memories was a cover of short story anthologies that had a chaos warrior, and a HUGE siege demon engine behind. It had to date to early/mid 90s, and the first story in it had a bretonnian peasant having his consciousness implanted into a dead slann by a wizard, later going to norsca to make a magic-rune covered da vinci tank, hiring a half-werewolf to go see the old one's warp portal. So yeah, anyone who thinks Old World wasn't high fantasy from the start clearly missed out on some clues.

The problem is that 6th and 7th edition fantasy is basically a different universe.

You have 1-3rd edition fantasy, where the universe was barely his own thing.

Then you have the crazy high fantasy period, that would be 4th, 5th and 8th fantasy edition. 8th was a reversion to pre-6th fantasy. I remember the rulebooks of those days, full of colour and cartoon like drawings and a ton of more subrealist john blanche art.

We then have the dark age of grimdarkness , 6th and 7th (And the most obvious way to look at the contrast is to compare 5th Bretonnia to 6th bretonnia). For most people, that was the peak of warhammer, the golden age. Personally it is my favourite, and I love karl kopinski style, my favourite warhammer artist, but I'm sick of people pretending it is the only true warhammer and everything else is crap.

Fantasy battle was always high fantasy, just, most of the time they tried to balance the rules so you could not field an army of multiple dragons. ("Hero-hammer" neither mentioned nor forgotten)

So, yeah, bring on the high fantasy, just make some basic armybuilding restrictions like GW had for both Fantasy and 40k not to many years ago.
If you think about it, the thing most people dislike about "modern gameplay" (ie AoS) is the crazy "anything goes" army building policy, not the centerpiece models themself.

Goose LeChance wrote:
If they have no intention of returning to a more grounded, unit focused game with ranks, then why bother?

The fact is, we don't know what's going to happen. It's absurd to judge a table top game that exists only in fluff by a unit released for a video game of the same IP.

Maybe TOW will be a horrible monster mash, maybe it won't, but a couple of big units in a game made by CA is hardly proof one way or the other. WHFB has never been about the absence of big monsters, even when I started collecting back in the mid 90's I think every major army except Dwarfs had a big single entity option. Even though they might not have been physically large (probably due more to practical limitations of metal minis than anything else) they were often a big chunk of an army's total cost.

I want TOW to be unit focused rather than monster focused, but lets at least wait until we get more info before we start crying.

 Galas wrote:
The problem is that 6th and 7th edition fantasy is basically a different universe.

You have 1-3rd edition fantasy, where the universe was barely his own thing.

Then you have the crazy high fantasy period, that would be 4th, 5th and 8th fantasy edition. 8th was a reversion to pre-6th fantasy. I remember the rulebooks of those days, full of colour and cartoon like drawings and a ton of more subrealist john blanche art.

We then have the dark age of grimdarkness , 6th and 7th (And the most obvious way to look at the contrast is to compare 5th Bretonnia to 6th bretonnia). For most people, that was the peak of warhammer, the golden age. Personally it is my favourite, and I love karl kopinski style, my favourite warhammer artist, but I'm sick of people pretending it is the only true warhammer and everything else is crap.

Yup, the super grimdark low fantasy days of 7th that introduced multi-dragon High Elves, Bat monsters, self-driving Khorne cannon chariots, Soulgrinders on square bases, etc and GW wrote a 5 page White Dwarf article on how Warhammer was every type of Fantasy depending on what you as the player chose to include or not include in your games.. 7th wasn't as low fantasy as people like to think they remember.

I never said 6th and 7th were low fantasy. I said they were much darker and the focus was more centralized around the empire and their murder hobbos armies.

The only truth about warhammer is that... the big fantastic stuff always existed. GW just lacked the technology to make it. I remember when the mumakil was the largest plastic kit ever made!

Lets look at Kislev for example. What stuff is really that much more magical than your average fantasy stuff?
-The bear cannon uses ice instead of wheels. A little strange, maybe is done that way because is easier to animate for TW:W we cannot know.
-The elite ice witches that compose the honour guard of the tsarina. They are in comparison to the empire, more magical, thats true. But not compared with other humans factions: Bot Norscans and Bretonnians had magic-wielding elite warriors from the dawn of time.
-The giant ice bear. Ok thats very magical, but not that much different than a rogue idol for orks.

So in a full remake faction of humans fighting with bows and riding horses (and bears) with spears and axes and rifles, in this day and age where GW only makes superheroes fight superheroes if you believe what you read here, you have:
-One artillery piece that uses some kind of magic for movement
-A elite honor guard unit that uses magic weapons
-A giant monster (That most factions had)

Seems pretty reasonable to me. I expect cathay to have much more magic stuff. But thats expected, just like Araby, not all human factions have the same "magical" or technological level.

It really wasn't centered on the Empire. The core rulebook for 6th ed did have that old timey orc vs empire decoration motif going on, but...if you weren't into empire, you still had the whole rest of the game. Lizardmen army book wasn't ALL about empire not-conquistadors raiding temples, there was also stuff about dark elves and chaos and skaven. Likewise DE book was mostly about their feud with the HE cousins. The one time it was about the Empire was during the Drizzle of Chaos campaign.

So the basic rulebook of the game was literally from the point of view of an Empire Scholar and the big global campaing they ran in that period was all about the chaos invasion to the empire.

One campaign in a time period spanning...i think nearly a decade, and the main rulebook. The other global campaign, Albion, had all sides competing equally, and Lustria campaign book was all about skaven and lizards (and I think vampires? bit fuzzy on that one). And the Lustria one had a massive snake-god eat their way through an underground tunnel buffet back to Southlands.

As it was said- if someone thinks that Warhammer, even 6-7th ed was all about low fantasy and Empirecentric, all it means is that they were focusing on Empire and not really engaging with the rest of the factions' lore, not that the game was.

Warhammer Fantasy was what *I* say it was! ME!

/thread

Fair. I always suspected that.

Cronch wrote:
One campaign in a time period spanning...i think nearly a decade, and the main rulebook. The other global campaign, Albion, had all sides competing equally, and Lustria campaign book was all about skaven and lizards (and I think vampires? bit fuzzy on that one). And the Lustria one had a massive snake-god eat their way through an underground tunnel buffet back to Southlands.

As it was said- if someone thinks that Warhammer, even 6-7th ed was all about low fantasy and Empirecentric, all it means is that they were focusing on Empire and not really engaging with the rest of the factions' lore, not that the game was.

That was my point. In my playgroup we didn't had any empire player and for me the empire was always this boring faction for historical repressed players. And the game didn't felt any kind of low magic when playing regularly with lizardmen, skavens, tomb kings, chaos and high elves.