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I have been playing a pretty smash-mouth Vulkan Biker/Termy list for the past few months and would like to try a different 2000 point army build for C:SM. I have been thinking about trying to build a mechanized, long-range shooty force (something I haven't tried yet) that can lay solid amounts of fire at range before dealing a solid (counter) charge. For one, is this type of list feasible for C:SM? If it is, then I have a few questions as to what it would look like in general:

What HQ would fit this theme best? (Do I go with a CC monster, a cheap Libby, or even a SC?)
What Troop setups should I look at? (aka, Las/Plas versus MM/Flamer, Razorbacks versus Rhinos, etc)
What units provide the best long-range firepower? (LRs, Preds, Typhoons, TFCs, Devastators, etc)
How much counter-charge do I need?
How much mobile-melta is needed? (Do I use Bikes, Landspeeders, or even meltas in Rhinos)
How do I deal with armies that can outshoot me? (New IG Butchered my poor Bikers)
How do I counter deep-strikers/fast assaulters?
Can DH/WH allies provide more "oomph" to the gunline? (GKGM is a beast and can take a Pyschic Hood, SoB provides cheap troops with MGx2, etc)
How many units should I be looking at? (Do I go with expensive units like LRs, or lots of cheap units like Razorbacks/Predators/etc?)

I was thinking of something along the lines of using 2 vanilla LRs as being the anchors of the gunline, one holding a small squad of TH/SS Termies to act as a counter-charge unit and the other holding a scoring unit. The scoring unit could be supported by an assaulty HQ to provide another decent counter-charge unit. These two AV14 boxes could bookend other units such as Predators/Vindicators to protect their side armor and provides firepower on the move. Throw in some MM ABs and/or squads in Rhinos to screen or even go offensive and I think it could be a fairly tough nut to crack. I'm thinking of trying something like this at an upcoming 2000 point tournament and would like to get some advice from anyone who has run shooty Marine lists in the past.

What HQ would fit this theme best? (Do I go with a CC monster, a cheap Libby, or even a SC?)

master of the forge, combi/hellfire captain with relic blade, bike captain, darnath lysander, termie libby.

What Troop setups should I look at? (aka, Las/Plas versus MM/Flamer, Razorbacks versus Rhinos, etc)

Space marine bikes for that delicious 24" relentless twin-linked boltery goodness. I love SM bikes.
Tacs should have flamers or meltas. Avoid plasma on tacs. ANY heavy weapon but the lascannon is good. Only use the multi-melta with another melta in a drop pod.
Razorbacks are better for a balanced approach. Park your HW bearer in your backfield, assault with your special + assault sarge. Rhinos are better for pure shooty.

Remember, tac sarges can take combi weapons. Combi weapons are your friend.

What units provide the best long-range firepower? (LRs, Preds, Typhoons, TFCs, Devastators, etc)

Land raider full of scouts is great objective holder, with a TL lascannon shot per turn, and scoring, they are grrreat. I hate preds, most people disagree. Devs are ok. Rest to flavor.

How much counter-charge do I need?

Generally your HQs and sarges should do the job. If you really are fighting an in your face assaulty enemy, consider a unit of regular termies, 10 PFist attacks are no slouch in CC + their shooty prowess. You ARE playing marines, so counter-charge is not a huge issue.

How much mobile-melta is needed? (Do I use Bikes, Landspeeders, or even meltas in Rhinos)

Bikes if you can swing them, a couple landspeeders if you can't. Melta + combi-melta on tacs is always a safe choice.

How do I deal with armies that can outshoot me? (New IG Butchered my poor Bikers)

By assaulting them. You ARE playing marines, after all.

How do I counter deep-strikers/fast assaulters?

Deep strikers give you a turn to shoot, so shoot them. DH inquisitors can help that. Fast assaulters can only really be countered by counter-charge in the form of a relic blade bike captain/unit of termies/etc.

Can DH/WH allies provide more "oomph" to the gunline? (GKGM is a beast and can take a Pyschic Hood, SoB provides cheap troops with MGx2, etc)

Canonnesses are an AMAZING counter-charge unit, with an act of faith giving their flamer/heavy flamer an amazing heavy infantry killing power, and then a blessed weapon, power weapon, and 12 more attacks that hit on 3's mopping up. GKGM is a more expensive counter-charge unit, a bit better, but that HQ slot is better spent on an inquisitor with mystics.

How many units should I be looking at? (Do I go with expensive units like LRs, or lots of cheap units like Razorbacks/Predators/etc?)

To taste. A balance is always good. 2 preds and a single land raider is a good HS section.


You know, I made a thread about almost this exact topic:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/257318.page

My personal favoruite shooty list with excellent counter assault capabilities goes something like this some say it sucks but it works well in my area:

Pedro, 175

Sternguard, 290
bolter x7, combi-bolter (user preferance) x3, powerfist x1
rhino, 35

Sternguard, 290
bolter x7, combi-bolter (user preferance) x3, powerfist x1
rhino, 35

Sternguard, 290
bolter x7, combi-bolter (user preferance) x3, powerfist x1
rhino, 35

Tac squad, 180
bolter x8, heavy bolter, plasma gun
rhino, 35

Tac squad, 180
bolter x8, heavy bolter, plasma gun
rhino, 35

attack bikes x2, 100
multi melta

Vindicator, 115

Vindicator, 115

Preadator, 85
autocannon, heavy bolter x2


as I said before some might say it sucks, but I havent lost wit thi s list yet, gamed it 5 or 6 times against MEQ, guard, chaos, the new space wolves, and eldar. In obj games theres a potential of 10 scoring units, but it has 15 kill points.

if going mech, you will want every unit to either have a transport or a move of 12" or more.
Rhinos can be used like mobile gun platforms, just drive around and shoot your special and heavy weapon out of the top hatch and use the storm bolter. you may not even have to get out at all.

Razorbacks are great for small Dev squads, they can augment/compliment the squads fire power and get them outta there if you have 20 boyz coming down on top of you.

As far as the weapons loadout if you whant lots of tanks you'll have to go cheap on the weapons upgrades. Missiles, meltas, flamers and multi-meltas are the best way to go. this will leave you with points for predators, vindicators, and landraiders(if out of Heavy support slots take a terminator squad and by a LR for them as this will give you another tank.


use tank shock to send panicky units off the board edge. do it on units that cannot preform a Death or Glory either because they can't hurt you or have poor Ld. Preform drive bys with the rhinos once you are close. on the first turn pop smoke on any thing that dosn't have a target or is in danger of getting popped.


hope this helps

Unfortunately the new space wolf codex does shooty marines better than space marines and have lots of options to cover your requirements.

If that is not an option, you could try tornado speeders, dakka preds or lascannons sponson preds and attack bikes.

Devs are not a very optimal choice, imho. Not cost effective.

10 man tac squads with mm and meltas in rhinos. Keep 'em cheap.

It will be very tough to outshoot IG armies and tough to assault a mech IG list.

I would try to keep the list on the cheap side.

*Edit*

And an excellent elite choice is rifleman dreads. Two twin-lilnked autocannons is an excellent choice for shooty marines.

Or just go space wolves.

Well, I've been playing shooty marines for the better part of ten years so here is a little advice I can give.

For your HQs, a no upgrade librarian with "The Avenger" is a good fit at 100 points. He can complement the Sergeant's power fist in a counter-charge unit nicely and a S5, AP3 flame template does wonders at thinning out your enemy's assault unit before you charge in to finish him off. At LD 10, the power goes off very reliably. At 2000 points, a space marine chaplain or a captain provides a good second HQ choice should you want one but try to keep the points low. The idea is to run them in counter-charge units to add a little extra punch but keep points free for shooty goodness.

For your troops, I find plasma guns to be the ideal weapon for shooty squads. They can reach out to 24 inches, S7 allows them to damage most vehicles you are shooting at reliably and in close the extra shot helps take down terminators and other big creatures. For heavy weapons, stick with missile launchers and lascannons. I typically run 4 tactical squads, two with plamsa/lascannon and two with plasma/missile launcher. I buy power weapons or fists for the sergeants and typically combat squad them, running the two special weapons in a stand-still shooty squad and using the sergeant and 4 bolter guys to take objectives.

For transports, I tend to run Razorbacks with las/twin-plas but the weapon choice is really up to you. I prefer lascannons or multi-meltas on the razorbacks and take my anti-troop weaponary elsewhere. This allows you to take the combat squad and a HQ to seize objectives/counter-charge while adding an extra shooty piece to the Army. Rhinos are overrated in a pure shooty force.

For fast attack, I prefer attack bikes. Three attack bikes with heavy bolters is a solid anti-troop punch at 120 points. Scout bikes with cluster mines tend to be a nice disruption piece as well to your enemy's assault plans. Landspeeders can work in the same role as attack bikes and the choice is really personal. I also tend to take two multi-melta attack bikes for anti-armor punch up close.

For heavy support, I typically take two predators (1 with autocannon/las-sponsons and 1 with autocannon/heavy bolter sponsons) and either a thunderfire cannon or a whirlwind. The predators can clean up what my attack bikes and tactical squads didn't finish off and the thunderfire/whirlwind provides an anti-troop punch that ignores cover saves when needed. The thunderfire in airburst mode is particularly effective against large orc mobs in cover (wounds on 3s, no armor or cover saves). The tech marines anncilliary rules that come with the thunderfire are also nice.

I do not typically use elites, but a dreadnought with a good long range weapon (36 inches or more) can help bolster the gunline nicely while still providing counter punch with the DCCW. I am also partial to Sternguard units at larger point values where I can afford to take a unit of 10 to sit back and bolster the gun line.

Hope this helps. The general idea I'm driving at though is to purchase cheap units with lots of guns and not get caught in the trap of trying to build super units.