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If I'm getting the concept right, this could be a good thing(at least temporarily) for many of those trying to create themed armies. It is a limited way of doing so, but with GW removing extreme customization we can hold on to it a bit with the "Counts As" concept.

For example; the IG got a new codex and all of the doctrines were wiped out, customized armies disappeared over night, but a glimmer of hope began to glimmer on the horizon. For those drop trooper doctrineusers, a counts as Al-Rahem may be the fix you need to get that idea back onto the field of play. He has a special rule giving an entire infantry platoon the ability to outflank the enemy, in fact they MUST outflank the enemy. Just imagine that instead of the tallarn commander ambushing his enemy, an elysian commander ordered his men to drop behind enemy lines in order to harass their flank. A combination of a counts as Bastonne and Chenkov you could very well have a Death Korp army that has staunch defense and is ready to pile man after man into the fray.

This is just the IG though, the Space Marine heros also add an ability to change the flavor of an army. Just look at what you want and who will provide for that want even in a limited capacity and you have some of the old school cusomizations you want.

So, my question is this; What are some of the possible "counts as" possibilities that come to mind when you look at your new codex and wonder where all your choices went?

My CSM khorne army is using the SW codex. It wont be a problem cause alot of other people are going to be doing it.

My Ork army will soon be fielded using "Counts as Imperial Guard".
Blood Axes are notorious for hiring out to pinkskins as mercenaries, and some of my looted wagons are Imperial tanks anyway!

Welcome to the religion war between, on the one side, "The codex is a holy agreement joining the appearance of the models with their rules", and on the other "As long as you're using the rules from a single codex, it doesn't matter what your models look like."

Is anyone serving popcorn? Do we have to wait for the Relictors to get here, first?

I own both Squats and Space Slaan. I'm all about "counts as" as it's the only way (outside of home brew lists) to field either of these armies.

Aside from the ocasion idiot Squat hater, I've never had any trouble (in the real world anyway, people are more likely to talk smack online) with any "counts as" I've done with these armies.

TR

I personally don't like 'Count-As' models. You want the perks without shelling out some money for the actual model? Um, not really.

If they're regular troops and you have a mixture of the actual troop combined w/others then thats fine. Ork Mobz or IG bajunga squads can be HUGE, so using Necromunda troops to help put those amount of models on the board is fine. I can understand that.

But having, say, a tactical space marine used for Marneus Calgar, I would have a problem.


One of the only exceptions I can think of is if you can't even GET the model. As in, it's so rare its ok to proxy...

Doombot001 wrote:I personally don't like 'Count-As' models. You want the perks without shelling out some money for the actual model? Um, not really.

If they're regular troops and you have a mixture of the actual troop combined w/others then thats fine. Ork Mobz or IG bajunga squads can be HUGE, so using Necromunda troops to help put those amount of models on the board is fine. I can understand that.

But having, say, a tactical space marine used for Marneus Calgar, I would have a problem.


One of the only exceptions I can think of is if you can't even GET the model. As in, it's so rare its ok to proxy...

Sounds more like you are are talking about Proxy rather than Counts-As.

One of the main reasons i use Counts-As models in my army is that, as Orks, i don't want a force that looks just like everyone else's Ork army.
I scratch-build and convert models, and use unusual figures.
My Weirdboy (sometimes fielded as Old Zogwart) is a Fantasy Sorcerer. Not because I don't want to pay for a Weirdboy model, but because I don't want my weirdboy to look like every other weirdboy out there.
My Loota Boyz are a combination of "real" lootas, conversions using standard Boyz with weapons looted from Eldar, Marine and Tau models, and scratch-built weapons.
My burnas are some "Real" burnas and some 2nd Ed. conversions.
I have a converted Tau Crisis suit with Railgunz, that "Counts-As" Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun.
My Big Mek with KFF is a converted AoBR Warboss with cocktail umbrella.
It's not about paying for models, its about fielding a "boring" army.

As for my Orks-Count-as-Guard army, yeah, i'm not buying 2,000pts of Guard. I'll only field it once in a blue moon, and don't have that kind of time/cash to have "spare" armies sitting gathering dust.
For any battle I consider using it, I'll also have an Ork list prepared, in case my foe doesn't like the idea.
Just like I keep a spare Big Shoota turret to blue-tac onto my Trukk in case my foe is not happy with "See all those grots with shootas? They count as turret-mounted Big Shoota, OK? If not, i'll blue-tac my turret on, but it doesn't look as good"

Huh....sounds similar to me. Proxy and Count-as. My gripe is that you look at the model and its not what it really is.

But yeah, my main thing is that some people want the perks but not pay anything for the model.

My gaming group usually plays as is, except for small things like "This model is armed with a storm bolter, but he really has a reaper cannon". That's fine with me. Or, my chimera is actually a banewolf. For me, it's "this model is a Vespid, but I'm using him as a kroot cause I can't find my other kroot model." That's cool with me.

Not, "This space marine scout is actually Marneus Calgar." - "Do you have the model?" - "No, of course not! Do you know how much that guy costs?"

Yeah, its a grey line between proxy and counts-as ... not sure where it is, myself
But, to take devil's advocate, you field a chimera as a banewolf? without buying a real banewolf? But get all the perks?
You didn't buy the Reaper Cannon from Bitz'r'Us? But want the perks?



It's not just about the cash-price, for me. It's about the effort.
If someone has scratch-built a Land Raider out of cardboard and paper-mache, and it looks good, and is close-to-WYSIWYG, then thats cool!
If someone has drawn a Land Raider on a cereal box in wax crayon, thats not cool.

In our group, we're pretty loose about this stuff.
I've persuaded my Guard foe that he can field a Maticore, even though he hasn't paid ForgeWorld £££ for one. He's got a spare Chimera, and when he gets some time (Works shifts as a nurse), he's gonna model a removable manticore-Turret.
But his infantry platoon is all the same - which is the sarge? Where are the grenade launchers? "Oh, I don't have them modelled."

Another part of Counts-as is to fit my story - If I field BlackSpike, Warboss of The Evil Moonz Klan, I might pay 225 pts for him, and get a Special Waaagh! rule.
He is not Ghazkhul-Thrakka. But he "counts-as" ghazzy.
The model is a heavily converted AoBR boss, with Binky, his pet squig. Quite distinguishable from any other Warboss. Other times I'll say "His mega-armour is at the cleaners" and field him as "counts-as" regular warboss. He might hop on Red Lightening, and "Counts as" Wazzdakka.

Hope I've not run too far from Halonachos's topic!

I disapprove of people using legal units in the Codex to represent other legal units in the same Codex (conversion-wise). Otherwise, though, counts-as is usually fine.

I am all for 'counts as models, but within reason. I find it irritating when I go out and buy a beautiful battlewagon brigade, whilst my mates still think their plastic boxes with lemons stuck to the top are Russes. No problem when someone has invested time and created a beatiful conversion though.

solkan wrote:Welcome to the religion war between, on the one side, "The codex is a holy agreement joining the appearance of the models with their rules", and on the other "As long as you're using the rules from a single codex, it doesn't matter what your models look like."

Is anyone serving popcorn? Do we have to wait for the Relictors to get here, first?

That is funny... and sad.

Pre-blandhammer 40K, the Relictors were quite nice.

Now... they are gone!

I personally don't like 'Count-As' models. You want the perks without shelling out some money for the actual model? Um, not really.

Oh really?
How about in my case with entire armies of long gone troop types? Is my fielding the Slaan as Chaos Marines "looking for perks"? Is my using Space Wolves to field my Squats "being too cheap to shell out for the models"?

TR

Trench-Raider wrote:

I personally don't like 'Count-As' models. You want the perks without shelling out some money for the actual model? Um, not really.

Oh really?
How about in my case with entire armies of long gone troop types? Is my fielding the Slaan as Chaos Marines "looking for perks"? Is my using Space Wolves to field my Squats "being too cheap to shell out for the models"?

TR

Nah, more like some people don't understand that the joy of playing the game should be able to be shared by those that both can, and cannot afford it.
If they have a problem with you, then they can play somebody else, and YOU can play someone else who is a bit friendlier!

Che-Vito wrote:

Trench-Raider wrote:

I personally don't like 'Count-As' models. You want the perks without shelling out some money for the actual model? Um, not really.

Oh really?
How about in my case with entire armies of long gone troop types? Is my fielding the Slaan as Chaos Marines "looking for perks"? Is my using Space Wolves to field my Squats "being too cheap to shell out for the models"?

TR

Nah, more like some people don't understand that the joy of playing the game should be able to be shared by those that both can, and cannot afford it.
If they have a problem with you, then they can play somebody else, and YOU can play someone else who is a bit friendlier!

I truly admire you at the moment.

My family is in a bad place at the moment and I'm too sick to get a job, and the people that I play with understand that mostly. I made a small mistake buying my Tyranid battleforce before considering the alternatives, and so I'm stuck with them for a while. I don't care - I fielded a completely proxied 1500 pt CSM army just yesterday with a Tau player (and even made some accurate tanks out of lego) to play. Everything worked out fine, and the people I play with understand that I can't splurge $80 on a model any more than a 5 year old can play for a professional NBA team. I don't have the money, people understand, I work hard to build accurate replacement models. At the moment the most I'll be spending on these models is $10 for a few more packets of bases and paper to label the bases with. When I get a job, I'll buy a battleforce and build/paint like they were made out of gold

The game isn't about money - the models bought from GW look fantastic, but anyone that wants to play should be able to play, in my opinion.

I pity people who can't look past the lack of models - labelling and bases (or even accurately cut circles of paper) are all the tools you need, if you're short on money.

Trench-Raider wrote:I own both Squats and Space Slaan. I'm all about "counts as" as it's the only way (outside of home brew lists) to field either of these armies.

Aside from the ocasion idiot Squat hater, I've never had any trouble (in the real world anyway, people are more likely to talk smack online) with any "counts as" I've done with these armies.

TR

I hate Squats with a passion. In person, Id tell you this. But Id also add, just dont beat me so bad that I look bad lol.
I think using a different army, or a homebrew (as long as its EASY to tell what everything is) is totally acceptable. I see nothing wrong in using an army with a look you like, with a different codex.

Fetterkey wrote:I disapprove of people using legal units in the Codex to represent other legal units in the same Codex (conversion-wise). Otherwise, though, counts-as is usually fine.

TSOALR reference I see.


I've proxied a hammerhead for a baneblade before, simply because it was my first apocalypse game and I was short a couple hundred points (would've used two hammerheads just to get the size, but had to use the other for a basilisk). At first it seems like someone's trying to cheat you, but I missed a shot because the hammerhead has a shorter barrel than a baneblade.

But, the fact is that a lot of people don't like some of the GW models(ie, Heston: Fat Marine is Fat), and I see nothing wrong with using some imagination to make a model that not only costs less, but may look cooler than the actual GW model.

Using a space marine scout as calgar is just a proxy in my books and as long as I can differentiate him from the other scouts then its okay.

As far as I'm concerned:

Counts-as models have been converted for the purpose of fulfilling this role in the Codex. For example, if I went out and bought a tank model, made sponsons out of plasticard, and decked it out with Aquilas and Imperial insignia, I've just done an acceptable counts-as.

If I grab a cardboard box and make it a Landraider or say my Space Marine Sergeant is now a Chapter Master and his chainsword is actually a thunder hammer, I'm proxying.

Count-as is an unofficial model made to represent the rules, Proxy looks nothing like what it's supposed to represent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the by, I'm okay with proxies if you're in a fix or just want to try out some wargear before you buy it. And of course, I'm a strong believer in counts-as. Out of millions of Guard regiments, only the ones from Cadia will look just like Cadians.

I think proxy and counts as is fine when playing with friends and as long as they're cool with it.

What I don't like is showing up at the flgs to pick up a game and then being told that this guys Chaos army are using SW rules but are still Chaos. It wouold be one thing if he was just trying it out before he bought a SW army, but this is the same guy who was using the Sm codex before. Now he has switched because SW rules better fit his army now. This just doesn't seem right.

As far as proxies at the flgs I don't mind so much as long as isn't a habitual thing.

Sol Invictus wrote:As far as proxies at the flgs I don't mind so much as long as isn't a habitual thing.

Exactly. The guy who uses a Grot as Marneus Calgar several games in a row is just cheating.

How about this guy:

*comes into FLGS* "this game looks cool, I gonna start SM!"
*3 months later, sees a vulkan list win a small scale store tourney* "I' gonna do a vulkan army!"
*sees a Fabius bile list top 3 at the store's 'ard boyz# "I'm gonna do a fabius bile list!"
"now i'm running Khorne Bezerkers"
"now i'm running plague marines"
"now i'm runnung Thousand sons" (at this point he's earned a bad reputation at the store and is still is using all of his original SM as whatever CSM he's recently seen do better than whatever he's chosen to play [over one game])

He saw the preview SW codex a couple of weeks ago and was planning to 'start' them. The store owner decided he isn't going to sell him the codex.

Ian1138 wrote:How about this guy:

*comes into FLGS* "this game looks cool, I gonna start SM!"
*3 months later, sees a vulkan list win a small scale store tourney* "I' gonna do a vulkan army!"
*sees a Fabius bile list top 3 at the store's 'ard boyz# "I'm gonna do a fabius bile list!"
"now i'm running Khorne Bezerkers"
"now i'm running plague marines"
"now i'm runnung Thousand sons" (at this point he's earned a bad reputation at the store and is still is using all of his original SM as whatever CSM he's recently seen do better than whatever he's chosen to play [over one game])

He saw the preview SW codex a couple of weeks ago and was planning to 'start' them. The store owner decided he isn't going to sell him the codex.

Never met someone like this. I'd probably still play them, sure it may be annoying, but if he cannot afford, or just won't buy the minis, then so be it.
I'd hate to see 40K become a snobfest, that's as much about what you can afford...as how you play.

Che-Vito wrote:

Ian1138 wrote:How about this guy:

*comes into FLGS* "this game looks cool, I gonna start SM!"
*3 months later, sees a vulkan list win a small scale store tourney* "I' gonna do a vulkan army!"
*sees a Fabius bile list top 3 at the store's 'ard boyz# "I'm gonna do a fabius bile list!"
"now i'm running Khorne Bezerkers"
"now i'm running plague marines"
"now i'm runnung Thousand sons" (at this point he's earned a bad reputation at the store and is still is using all of his original SM as whatever CSM he's recently seen do better than whatever he's chosen to play [over one game])

He saw the preview SW codex a couple of weeks ago and was planning to 'start' them. The store owner decided he isn't going to sell him the codex.

Never met someone like this. I'd probably still play them, sure it may be annoying, but if he cannot afford, or just won't buy the minis, then so be it.
I'd hate to see 40K become a snobfest, that's as much about what you can afford...as how you play.

Well said. Though it does annoy me when my friends buy LOADS of stuff that they're never going to use (Ie 2 Master of the Chapter boxes, Belial "because he looks kewl" loads of guard which they don't even assemble or paint, andthen carry on to say "UHHH this coke can is drop-pod. And has been for a cadzookillion games...) or even worse, when I see like, 30 guardian Jetbikes zooming up to my Lords of the Black Crusades formation and I think, "wehay! more blood for the ruinous powers!". Turns out they're ALL SHINING FRIKIN SPEARS LEAD BY AN AUTARCH WITH A LASER LANCE...seriously....

I have 3 Armies

My Dark Angles 13th founding chapter [100% GW]
My Space Wolves [70% GW] {Once tried to play someone who refused to play my SW because they were Primer Grey not SW Grey]
IG/DH [30% GW]

I have a bunch old stuff from War Machines, Mutant Chronicles and stuff I don’t even remember.
• Jacks for one of my dreads and there steam armor looks good as Terminators.
• I had a M3 Lee Tank that I used for a Lemmon Russ [I ran it as the Heavy Bolter was in the Turret and the Big Gun was in the Hull]
• My Vindicator is a Bumbar

With my IG/DH, my Inquisitor is a Dark Angles robed model, his body guard is filled with all sorts of stuff.
• Glitter Boy for a servitor with a Plasma Cannon
• Micro-Machine for one of his familiars
I have 2 squads of Storm Troopers that I am using as Storm Troopers
I have a bucket load of Battle Field Evolution Infantry and vehicles that I made IG platoon with.
I have a Stug for one of my destroyers.

I have gone to the trouble of making sure that my figures are WYSIWYG, an Assault Rifle is a Las-Gun, a SAW is a Heavy Bolter, my Warrior APC’s are Chimera’s.

As far as Counts as I think if it fits with the army, it’s ok with me. That’s how this game started, you wanted a tank, you went to a model shop and got a Tiger Tank and added stuff to it. I turned an Israeli Merkava into a AT-AT and was using it. That was half the fun. Heck I am still trying to make my “Space Pie-Rat army using Skaven the closest I have come up with is the DE.