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Going through the fluff, I came across a number of Space Marine chapters that have been decimated, and are in the process of being rebuilt.
Crimson Fists comes to mind as a prime example.

This led me to thinking... how is a SM chapter rebuilt?

I know that the "normal" way to create new recruits is to harvest the gene-seeds from dead warriors, and to implant them into worthy initiates.
But in many cases (such as the Crimson Fists), it seems that the gene-seeds of the dead are lost, with no hope of recovery.

In this case, how would a chapter rebuild itself? Is it even possible?

Terra maintains a gene seed repository which can be used to supplement chapters when they fall on hard times. Chapters themselves also maintain a small reserve. Other than that, it is a long and painful process since the growth and development of marines is strictly controlled in terms of time lines in the fluff.

In desperate times, they will put the gene-seed in condemned criminals, then harvest the extra organs and gene-seed when they have fully grown. These organs are transferred to a Space marine, and a gene-seed grows in them as well.

Some of the organs are grown in vats, and some grow in the SM neophyte after implantation of the Progenoic glands.

Each SM has two progenoids, and both are required for implantation of newly grown organs into a Neophyte.

The fluff sources are unclear as to whether the progenoids are collected after death or when mature. Either way they do not regrow, so a single Marine can only give up the two progenoids he was originally implanted with.

Clearly if the progenoid collection and implantation process is less than 100% successful (for example, suppose a marine was killed by a railgun shot to the neck, destroying one of his progenoids) then the number of SMs will decrease gradually.

Therefore there must be a source of spare progenoids from somewhere.

They ask fabius bile.

karimabuseer wrote:They ask fabius bile.

Why?
To see if he still claims to know but obviously doesnt know?

If I recall correctly Marines only require one geneseed to be created, but in turn "produce" two of them, considering the fact that a lot of them are lost in casualties and their seeds are not recovered, the population of Marines remains rather equal across time.

The fluff says two are implanted. It says the two progenoids are different which implies they contain different geneseed.

Perhaps only one needs to be used in an emergency, and has a lower chance of the whole process succeeding.

Of course, if your chapter has lost 75% casualties, and only recovered half their progenoids, the last thing you want to do is cheapass progenoid implantations which are likely to go wrong.

Does anyone know if both progenoids have to come from the same SM corpse?

What PanzerLeader said. According to Index Astartes each Chapter is obliged to send a 5% of its genetic materiel to Adeptus Mechanicus. This "tithe" has two purposes: 1) to monitor the health of the chapters and 2) to store geneseed with a view of founding new Chapters. This stored materiel is also used to help Chapters that are undergoing rebuilding or suffer from defective geneseed. If I recall correctly the Raven Guard is one of these Chapters that require a small steady supply of "remedial" geneseed from Terra. A legacy of the post-Istvaan rebuilding program where Corax used accelerated techniques to grow marines.

That means that assuming 100% successful harvesting and re-implantation of progenoids from dead SMs, a chapter would be able to get 19 new SMs for every 20 killed.

I don't see how that system would work, long term.

They harvest of marine dead I think is close to 100% they make it sound like the apothacries just need to get to it, and remove it.

How is a Space Marine chapter "rebuilt"?

Generally I keep a tube of Krazy Glue in my dice bag, but others use plastic cement or buy glue at the gaming shop.


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THis always bugged me too since if you only get enough geneseed from 1 marine to make 1 more then they'd be long dead.

I seem to recall reading once that SMs regrow their glands, so they're harvested every few years and taking from the dead is just a desperate measure, not a requirement to maintain a 1:1 ratio.

But I can't remember where.

I may be a regular 'ol human with two kidneys. I may have never read any SM related fluff.

But reading all this stuff sounds really xenos...

Humblesteve wrote:But reading all this stuff sounds really xenos...

Ironic, isn't it? These guys were created to defend humanity against "the alien, the mutant, the heretic", but they've been genetically engineered to the point that they only resemble humans in outward appearances. (And only barely, at that)

I also recall reading from the codex that a Space Marine has two Progenoids (one in the chest cavity and one in the neck), and that either can be used to cultivate new organs.

The codex also states that one Progenoid takes 5 years to mature, and the other 10 years, and that they can be extracted by apothecaries once they are mature, or once the carrier is dead.

Seeing as how precious these Progenoids are, I would assume that apothecaries will keep meticulous track of the maturity of each and every Progenoid in each marine, and extract them at earliest possible opportunity. But if this is the case, then why would Space Marines feel the need to recover the gene-seed from fallen comrades?
Going by this logic, only the greenest scouts who have been serving for less than 10 years would still be carrying the Progenoids in them.

Am I missing something, or are there apparent contradictions in the official fluff?

Harvesting mature progenoids at the earliest opportunity seems to be the most reasonable and believable. As for recovering them, maybe they can keep growing them after the original two have been harvested? Although there isn't much if any in the fluff to back this up, it WOULD make sense from a reproductive perspective!

angelbleu wrote:

Humblesteve wrote:But reading all this stuff sounds really xenos...

Ironic, isn't it? These guys were created to defend humanity against "the alien, the mutant, the heretic", but they've been genetically engineered to the point that they only resemble humans in outward appearances. (And only barely, at that)

I also recall reading from the codex that a Space Marine has two Progenoids (one in the chest cavity and one in the neck), and that either can be used to cultivate new organs.

The codex also states that one Progenoid takes 5 years to mature, and the other 10 years, and that they can be extracted by apothecaries once they are mature, or once the carrier is dead.

Seeing as how precious these Progenoids are, I would assume that apothecaries will keep meticulous track of the maturity of each and every Progenoid in each marine, and extract them at earliest possible opportunity. But if this is the case, then why would Space Marines feel the need to recover the gene-seed from fallen comrades?
Going by this logic, only the greenest scouts who have been serving for less than 10 years would still be carrying the Progenoids in them.

Am I missing something, or are there apparent contradictions in the official fluff?

There are apparent contradictions in the official fluff.

For instance, the two progenoids take 5 and 10 years to mature. This means they are different. Since their function is the collection and storage of geneseed, they must be collecting different geneseed.

Fluff states both progenoids are extracted from a Marine body at the point of death or when matured. (This is one of the functions of the apothecaries.) However it can't be both.

The progenoids are supposedly the source of genetic material to develop the other SM organs, which are cultured outside the body. Why can't they develop themselves? If they can develop themselves, why do they need to be implanted into SMs? If they can't develop themselves, where did anyone get any of them in the first place; the progenoid is required to develop the other organs, which in turn develop the progenoid, in a never ending circle.

What's all this about organs? Everyone knows space marines are guardsmen on a sugar high.

I've even read that the tool the Apothecary uses kills them when it harvests the Gene Seed. Also that it was called a Carnifex or something like that. I think it was in the 4th ed SM codex, not sure though.

I haven't got evidence on me, but as much as I remember. Progenoids and gene-seed are slightly different.

You need gene-seed to create Space Marines. The gene-seed is cultured from the progenoid gland of a dead Space Marine. I've not seen any suggestion that the progenoids are the same gene-seed that the intitiate was implanted with in the first place.

So, an intitate 'receives some gene-seed', (though we don't know how exactly, what this looks like, or how long it takes) and after 10 years, as well as other enhancements, he's grown two progenoids of his own, which can be harvested to make more gene-seed.

After a certain amount of years, the progenoids ARE harvested from marines who are still alive. So older marines have already given their gene-seed back to the Chapter. I've definitely seen this one in BL novels..

As far as i remember, there are two progenoids for redundancy, since not all marines get saved, and since , if a mature marine's head is blown off, the progenoid in the chest may be the only useable one...

EDIT

According to Lexicanium, each progenoid contains the 19 different sorts of zygote required.

So...

- Marine dies, as many of his progenoids as possible are removed
- Each progenoid contains the base zygotes to make the new organs. These zygotes are either implanted into the marine, where they grow and take effect, or grown into organs and THEN implanted into the marine.
- One of these zygotes makes 'progenoid glands'. The glands are implanted into the marine along with all the other 'grown' organs.
- The two new progenoids collect the marine's genetic information over the next 5 or 10 years. Once they've created fresh 'zygotes' they are considered to be mature.
- Marine dies, the mature progenoids are collected, cycle begins again.

If Index Aestartes I is still credible, then new geenseed is generated by the progenoid glands. There are two progenoid glands and you get a "a single geenseed corresponding to each zygote implanted in a marine" from each of the two glands.

Although when the extraction is done, and whether both glands are extracted, appears to vary not only between chapter in the fluff, but between GW publication.

1hadhq wrote:

karimabuseer wrote:They ask fabius bile.

Why?
To see if he still claims to know but obviously doesnt know?

If the iron warriors know, he does...the iron warriors are the love children between him and Abaddon.
(Oh, and read his notes in the old white dwarf series, heroes and villains....discusses it there).

ArbitorIan wrote:- Marine dies, as many of his progenoids as possible are removed
- Each progenoid contains the base zygotes to make the new organs. These zygotes are either implanted into the marine, where they grow and take effect, or grown into organs and THEN implanted into the marine.
- One of these zygotes makes 'progenoid glands'. The glands are implanted into the marine along with all the other 'grown' organs.
- The two new progenoids collect the marine's genetic information over the next 5 or 10 years. Once they've created fresh 'zygotes' they are considered to be mature.
- Marine dies, the mature progenoids are collected, cycle begins again.

That was more or less how I remembered it.

I think the rebuilding depends on several factors.
1) Is is a First Founding (or maybe even Second Founding) chapter? If it is, I could see where successor chapter's might send extra geneseed, recruits, maybe even some veteran marines to help with the rebuilding. Some of the First Foundings keep better tabs on their successors than others, principally the Dark Angels, but I think the Blood Angels do as well.
2) Does the Chapter serve a vital purpose? Some chapters were founded for specific functions, like guarding the Maelstorm, Eye of Terror, or even a vital system. If the answer is yes, I would guess the High Muckety-mucks of Terra will intervene.
3) Is the Chapter on any Inquisitor's hitlist? Remember how the Celestial Lions were dying out after the bombarded a refugee camp in the Third War for Armaggedon. And some snipers -mysteriously- killed most of their apothecaries. With neck shots. Where marines starting to mutate (even more than Chapters like SWs, etc.)?
4) Why is the Chapter decimated? Did they do something really dumb? Most of the fleet lost in the warp? Lost 6 companies heroically defending the Imperium from the threat of Abaddon, orks, little green men, pygmys with sharp sticks?

I would guess that if the High Lords want the Chapter to be rebuilt, it will be. They'll get geneseed from the AdMech (hey, if they're sending a supply every year for the past 10,000 years, that's a lot of geneseed). They'll maybe get reinforcements from other Chapters, or get additional recruits (I could see the High Lords letting a Chapter recruit from additional worlds, maybe even have other Chapters help them select extra recruits, etc.). If the High Lords decide it's best that the Chapter be allowed to 'die off' (because they were on the wrong side of the Badab War, have an uppity Chapter Master that doesn't do what the High Lords want, they have horns growing out of their foreheads, etc.), it's more likely the Chapter have to 'sink or swim' on their own. If they make it, it's okay, but if they die out, the High Lords won't complain either. They'll just found a new Chapter that's a little more to their liking.

karimabuseer wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

karimabuseer wrote:They ask fabius bile.

Why?
To see if he still claims to know but obviously doesnt know?

If the iron warriors know, he does...the iron warriors are the love children between him and Abaddon.
(Oh, and read his notes in the old white dwarf series, heroes and villains....discusses it there).

The Iron Warriors seem to get ony halfbreeds from their process. Plus payloads of mutants.
Also the Iron Warriors had not easily given into mutation. Could help a bit to control the influence of the warp on your geneseed.

Shall i remind you that WD isnt just a little series of a few articles, all of them indexed and easy to find.
Some hints where to seek would be nice.
Or the far better choice, quote it in the thread if you base a point on it. I ( and many other people ) may not own every WD issue.

1hadhq wrote:

karimabuseer wrote:

1hadhq wrote:

karimabuseer wrote:They ask fabius bile.

Why?
To see if he still claims to know but obviously doesnt know?

If the iron warriors know, he does...the iron warriors are the love children between him and Abaddon.
(Oh, and read his notes in the old white dwarf series, heroes and villains....discusses it there).

The Iron Warriors seem to get ony halfbreeds from their process. Plus payloads of mutants.
Also the Iron Warriors had not easily given into mutation. Could help a bit to control the influence of the warp on your geneseed.

Shall i remind you that WD isnt just a little series of a few articles, all of them indexed and easy to find.
Some hints where to seek would be nice.
Or the far better choice, quote it in the thread if you base a point on it. I ( and many other people ) may not own every WD issue.

White dwarf issue 277. I only know about it because I was looking for Cyphers updated rules, and was pouring over the archives on the old games workshop website (yes they had archives back then :O). It has a few nice pics in it, and some good fluff (especially about Cypher )