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Made in us
Snord






I feel like GW jumped the shark a bit with the volume of bears in the kislev unit line-up. There was originally that bear mounted special character, so moving to bear cavalry kind of works. But why have that sled mounted cannon pulled by bears? Isn't it enough that it's always sliding on magical ice?

GW needs to learn the classic design principle of less is more.
   
Made in ca
Been Around the Block



Canada

Kislev will be led by Elsa from Frozen
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




But it always has been? Both are inspired by the same fairy tale...
   
Made in de
Poisonous Tomb Scorpion






 Galas wrote:
-The bear cannon uses ice instead of wheels. A little strange, maybe is done that way because is easier to animate for TW:W we cannot know.


I think we can rule out an inability to animate wheels or sleds without moving parts. It's not 1972 anymore.

More likely GW is doing its favorite thing, gets crazy about what they consider a defining feature of an army and slap it on everything. Every. Last. Thing.

 Galas wrote:
Cronch wrote:
One campaign in a time period spanning...i think nearly a decade, and the main rulebook. The other global campaign, Albion, had all sides competing equally, and Lustria campaign book was all about skaven and lizards (and I think vampires? bit fuzzy on that one). And the Lustria one had a massive snake-god eat their way through an underground tunnel buffet back to Southlands.

As it was said- if someone thinks that Warhammer, even 6-7th ed was all about low fantasy and Empirecentric, all it means is that they were focusing on Empire and not really engaging with the rest of the factions' lore, not that the game was.


That was my point. In my playgroup we didn't had any empire player and for me the empire was always this boring faction for historical repressed players. And the game didn't felt any kind of low magic when playing regularly with lizardmen, skavens, tomb kings, chaos and high elves.


I don't know. Once we accept that we're talking about an army of animated skeletons, my Tomb Kings army was largely about stabbing things until they stopped moving. Magic was in the background. Technically everywhere, but rarely at the core of how the army fought and won battles. Felt pretty low magic to me.

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:
I feel like GW jumped the shark a bit with the volume of bears in the kislev unit line-up. There was originally that bear mounted special character, so moving to bear cavalry kind of works. But why have that sled mounted cannon pulled by bears? Isn't it enough that it's always sliding on magical ice?

GW needs to learn the classic design principle of less is more.


Yeah, that's not going to happen.

Shame, too. You could actually see some of that with the latest vampire/Cursed City models.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




"once we accept that my army of magical skeletons was about magical skeletons, they barely had magic"...that's some impressive contortionist skills!
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

 Geifer wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Cronch wrote:
One campaign in a time period spanning...i think nearly a decade, and the main rulebook. The other global campaign, Albion, had all sides competing equally, and Lustria campaign book was all about skaven and lizards (and I think vampires? bit fuzzy on that one). And the Lustria one had a massive snake-god eat their way through an underground tunnel buffet back to Southlands.

As it was said- if someone thinks that Warhammer, even 6-7th ed was all about low fantasy and Empirecentric, all it means is that they were focusing on Empire and not really engaging with the rest of the factions' lore, not that the game was.


That was my point. In my playgroup we didn't had any empire player and for me the empire was always this boring faction for historical repressed players. And the game didn't felt any kind of low magic when playing regularly with lizardmen, skavens, tomb kings, chaos and high elves.


I don't know. Once we accept that we're talking about an army of animated skeletons, my Tomb Kings army was largely about stabbing things until they stopped moving. Magic was in the background. Technically everywhere, but rarely at the core of how the army fought and won battles. Felt pretty low magic to me.


I don't want to disrespect you but Tomb Kings , on the tabletop were all about their magic, their priest, and their curses and buffs. Without that they were even more awfull thant what they allready were. The difference is that in those days, magic was in our imagination, rarely modeled on the miniatures (Or animated in a videogame)

And lets not talk about mummies, casket of souls, ushabti, bone constructs, bone giants, catapults shooting screaming magical skulls, etc...


 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:
I feel like GW jumped the shark a bit with the volume of bears in the kislev unit line-up. There was originally that bear mounted special character, so moving to bear cavalry kind of works. But why have that sled mounted cannon pulled by bears? Isn't it enough that it's always sliding on magical ice?

GW needs to learn the classic design principle of less is more.


I think the bears look fine for the bombard, is the sliding ice what looks off and is the last drop that breaks the inmersion of the unit. Why bears and no horses? Because big bears are stronger than horses and they can move it where horses cannot, for example.

The big giant bear of ice , I believe, is more too obvious. A giant ice elemental? Ok. They are the ice faction. But for it to have the form of a bear? A little too much flanderization.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/05/14 17:48:20


 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut






Sigh.

It's a presentation thing. There's a difference between Teclis throwing fireballs around, the magical equivalent of full frontal, and undead, where the magic remains in the background.

That's ignoring the fact that undead in general are so ingrained in many cultural backgrounds, they barely count as magic in the context of most fantasy settings.
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

GW puts the focus on the big, cool stuff just like they are putting a bloodthirster front and center in all TW:W3 trailers.

Because an article named "Lets look at the life of a kislevite kossar: This is Boris, he ate smashed potatoes this morning and a chaos hound ate his friend this evening. He also caught lice because he sleeps with his horse." is not as exciting or makes for great marketing.

And I say this as somebody that has Riders of Death by Dan Abnett and A Murder in Mariemburg by David Bishop as his two favourite warhammer fantasy books.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/14 17:59:41


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut






 Galas wrote:
I think the bears look fine for the bombard, is the sliding ice what looks off and is the last drop that breaks the inmersion of the unit. Why bears and no horses? Because big bears are stronger than horses and they can move it where horses cannot, for example.

The big giant bear of ice , I believe, is more too obvious. A giant ice elemental? Ok. They are the ice faction. But for it to have the form of a bear? A little too much flanderization.


Funny how I can rationalize the ice elemental taking the form favoured by Ursun better than a mortar being pulled by a bear.

But I would prefer if the ice bear was an animated human made construct - a huge wood and wicker statue the ice witches imbue with the power of their magic. That could be a cool project for when Kislev comes out.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/14 18:05:51


 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 His Master's Voice wrote:
Sigh.

It's a presentation thing. There's a difference between Teclis throwing fireballs around, the magical equivalent of full frontal, and undead, where the magic remains in the background.

That's ignoring the fact that undead in general are so ingrained in many cultural backgrounds, they barely count as magic in the context of most fantasy settings.

well, by that logic dragons are so ingrained in many cultural backgrounds they barely count as magic too. Witches and wizards are in almost all cultures too, so fireballs aren't magical either.
   
Made in de
Poisonous Tomb Scorpion






 Galas wrote:
Spoiler:
 Geifer wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Cronch wrote:
One campaign in a time period spanning...i think nearly a decade, and the main rulebook. The other global campaign, Albion, had all sides competing equally, and Lustria campaign book was all about skaven and lizards (and I think vampires? bit fuzzy on that one). And the Lustria one had a massive snake-god eat their way through an underground tunnel buffet back to Southlands.

As it was said- if someone thinks that Warhammer, even 6-7th ed was all about low fantasy and Empirecentric, all it means is that they were focusing on Empire and not really engaging with the rest of the factions' lore, not that the game was.


That was my point. In my playgroup we didn't had any empire player and for me the empire was always this boring faction for historical repressed players. And the game didn't felt any kind of low magic when playing regularly with lizardmen, skavens, tomb kings, chaos and high elves.


I don't know. Once we accept that we're talking about an army of animated skeletons, my Tomb Kings army was largely about stabbing things until they stopped moving. Magic was in the background. Technically everywhere, but rarely at the core of how the army fought and won battles. Felt pretty low magic to me.


I don't want to disrespect you but Tomb Kings , on the tabletop were all about their magic, their priest, and their curses and buffs. Without that they were even more awfull thant what they allready were. The difference is that in those days, magic was in our imagination, rarely modeled on the miniatures (Or animated in a videogame)

And lets not talk about mummies, casket of souls, ushabti, bone constructs, bone giants, catapults shooting screaming magical skulls, etc...


I don't think I can put this better than His Master's Voice already did, but I'll add my explanation regardless. There's a distinct difference between things that need magic to exist and things that are magical for their own sake. A skeleton warrior or mummy (the animated kind, anyway) cannot exist without magic, nor any of the war statuary of Nehekhara. If you want an undead army to exist, it needs to be permeated by magic. But when you look at how the army fights, it's just swords and spears, archers and chariots. It's very historical in its approach to warfare, with a little Indiana Jones and curse of the mummy thrown into the mix to get that fantasy feeling across that every army has.

There is nothing preventing a siege cannon from employing wheels or skids, even if the beast of burden pulling it is a bear. Replacing traditional means of motion with magical ice is a conscious choice from the designers to insert a fantastical element that is not motivated by necessity but something else, such as style, a fetish for magic ice, or the result of a roll on a random table.

The thing is, the magic ice carpet cannon could be a way of adding that little extra fantasy to an otherwise unassuming army, like a Casket of Souls. Or it could be just another extra magical building block in a army that is more magical than some people are used to in Warhammer Fantasy. We don't know yet, because we don't have the full context yet (unlike with Tomb Kings). All I'm saying is I can understand it if people find the revealed units over the top if every new unit has its special magical thing. At some point it stops being sprinkling for flavor and starts being a theme.

Nehekhara lives! Sort of! 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




"warhammer is low magic!"
You have entire armies of magical creatures that use magic to exist
"No, not like that!"
   
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Southeastern PA, USA

Daemons were also pretty grounded when you think about it. Other than being soulstorms from a hell dimension temporarily bound in monstrous form to the WHFB plane by terrible rituals, they just carried swords and flags and stuff.

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Cronch wrote:

well, by that logic dragons are so ingrained in many cultural backgrounds they barely count as magic too.


Why yes, a dragon can be a fitting element of both low and high fantasy. A Witcher style wild animal preying on a remote hamlet versus the gleaming godbeast slaying armies with its atomic breath.

Presentation.
   
Made in gb
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General




We'll find out soon enough eh.

Cronch wrote:
"warhammer is low magic!"
You have entire armies of magical creatures that use magic to exist
"No, not like that!"


"There's no difference at all between a picture of someone wearing a bikini on a beach, and hardcore pornography."

I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.

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 His Master's Voice wrote:
Cronch wrote:

well, by that logic dragons are so ingrained in many cultural backgrounds they barely count as magic too.


Why yes, a dragon can be a fitting element of both low and high fantasy. A Witcher style wild animal preying on a remote hamlet versus the gleaming godbeast slaying armies with its atomic breath.

Presentation.


Well Warhammer Dragons have always been immensely powerful and intelligent.

Now people enjoyed a small slice of Warhammer that was the dark fantasy element of a few humans fighting a few skaven in a sewer or chaos cults and such but it was always a little part of the world. And the same stories are told in Age of Sigmar.

I did and still enjoy those stories but I also enjoy Gotrek or the Sundering or the story of Nagash or Neferata - All are Warhammer.

At some point it stops being sprinkling for flavor and starts being a theme.
I can def agree with that - its happened and ruined (for me) varous Space Marine chapters.

I think the Elemental Bear works really well with the Kislev background of the Ice Witches raising the land to fight for them (or vice versa) but I am less keen on the bear gun, Bear cavlary though - awesome.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/14 19:35:37


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Vigo. Spain.

Now I want to say, I know we are all talking about the bear-cannon and the ice bear.

But damm those winged cavalrymen and that infantry and kislevite archers look great.

I specially like the ones with rifles and bardiches.

The more I grow disenchanted with age of sigmar the more hyped I'm for The Old World.

I know people theres a ton of other rank and file games dragon rampant kings of war this one with the big centaur-alien skeleton thing but I want my warhammer drug, I allready play infinity for non-warhammer wargaming.

I really hope for some cross compability with old armies. I would love to be able to use my ogre army in TOW, specially if they are clever enough and sell square movement trays for round base miniatures.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/14 19:36:10


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Galas wrote:
Now I want to say, I know we are all talking about the bear-cannon and the ice bear.

But damm those winged cavalrymen and that infantry and kislevite archers look great.

I specially like the ones with rifles and bardiches.

The more I grow disenchanted with age of sigmar the more hyped I'm for The Old World.

I know people theres a ton of other rank and file games dragon rampant kings of war this one with the big centaur-alien skeleton thing but I want my warhammer drug, I allready play infinity for non-warhammer wargaming.

I really hope for some cross compability with old armies. I would love to be able to use my ogre army in TOW, specially if they are clever enough and sell square movement trays for round base miniatures.



I share in your enthusiasm, particularly for Kislev. Really like all of the new units/models they are showing. The Tzar infantry looks great, the horse and bear cavalry, The rifle/axe infantry. Love it all.

This video shows all of the units shown in the release video in greater and closer detail (more new units to come).


   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

I also love the ice guard, their design and armor and their glaives but the bows... if I end up with a Kislevite army, I'm sure i'll change them.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Mr Morden wrote:


Well Warhammer Dragons have always been immensely powerful and intelligent.

Now people enjoyed a small slice of Warhammer that was the dark fantasy element of a few humans fighting a few skaven in a sewer or chaos cults and such but it was always a little part of the world. And the same stories are told in Age of Sigmar.

I did and still enjoy those stories but I also enjoy Gotrek or the Sundering or the story of Nagash or Neferata - All are Warhammer.


Yeah, Warhammer was always a wonderfully spacious setting - it had something for everyone. I admit I'm more of a 1st edition WFRP guy, but I never had any issues with the high fantasy elements of WFB.

If I complain about ice and bears with the new Kislev, it's not because it's magic, it's because I'd rather not see some very nice designs getting Spacewolved.
   
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Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





I was definitely getting Space Wolf Wolf Guard wielding Wolf Claws for the Wolf Time vibes from the amount of Bear going off in that video.

As soon as the Bear Cavalry were previewed back when I figured this'd be the result though, so I can't say I'm surprised.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/14 20:28:17


 
   
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your mind

Goose LeChance wrote:
Kislev will be led by Elsa from Frozen


Perhaps you mean Aelsai from Afrozeni?

   
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Lake County, Illinois

Warhammer pretty much tried to be all things to all people (at least all fantasy miniature wargamers) and have something for everyone. Maybe that's why people disagree about how to label/pigeon-hole it.
   
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SoCal

 Albino Squirrel wrote:
Warhammer pretty much tried to be all things to all people (at least all fantasy miniature wargamers) and have something for everyone. Maybe that's why people disagree about how to label/pigeon-hole it.


Didn’t have a lot for players who wanted Araby, Ind, Cathay, Nippon, Warhammer Africa (what was it called?), or women (except for a few character minis).

   
Made in de
Fully-charged Electropriest






 Arbitrator wrote:

As soon as the Bear Cavalry were previewed back when I figured this'd be the result though, so I can't say I'm surprised.


There was Bear cavalry in Tuomas Pirinen's Kislev army list in Citadel Journal 15 (that was like 25 years ago), an old artwork of Boris Ursa riding a bear from John Blanche and more bears in Warmaster. Also the Tsar on bear model and background about a bear god worshipped by the Kislevites.You needed the Trailer to figure out that in an army of Kislev would be... bears?
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





The gameplay video implies that the magical ice-sled cannon is some form of special thing, at least in lore. It's said to be ancient and that all Kislev Warriors are inspired to be fighting alongside it, so it's seemingly not just some normal cannon they for some strange reason decided was better with a magic sled.

They do then call in 2 of them at once, but that could just be for gameplay reasons.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/14 22:06:41


 
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




I think the level of fantasy argument in Warhammer largely comes from the way the level of fantasy varies from army to army and how it has varied over time and editions.

how much fantasy you think is normal in the setting comes from when you entered and what form novel/game/rpg you experienced it the most.

As someone who came in during sixth edition, to me there was a notably increase in "high fantasy" elements over time especially in 8th. I bet if you started in 7th or especially 8th these additions don't stand out so much.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/14 22:44:03


 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 His Master's Voice wrote:
A Witcher style wild animal preying on a remote hamlet versus the gleaming godbeast slaying armies with its atomic breath.

A "wild animal"? Is that from some gak fanfiction (aka cd projekt game)? Because in Witcher books, the whole point of the story dealing with dragons was that they are NOT animals and Witcher outright refused to hunt intelligent, beautiful magical creature even when begged by his love...
   
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Cronch wrote:
But it always has been? Both are inspired by the same fairy tale...


I know that and you know that, but apparently not everyone did.

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