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Incognito15 wrote:
Was 600pts

Canoness - benefience +1 inv aura

5 bss
5 bss

10 celestians 2 melta
10 celestians 2 melta
5 seraphim 4 ip

Penitent

Played ad mech

Dom

8 skittles 2 plas
8 skittles 2 plas
3 grav destroyers

7 priests
Dunerider

I got a 1500 pt game coming up on saturday. So will try them again.

I see your list has a lot of admech raiders. Stat line for them is meh i take it theres a strategem that makes them that good?

You can't judge anything about 9th at 600pts. I know that they're pushing smaller games with incursion missions and w/e but the game basically doesn't function at all until 1500.


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So the Invader ATV profile got leaked. Their multimelta is 2 shots, Damage d6+2 at half range.

That INSTANTLY makes retributors and MM immolators pretty goddam good if we get it. might actually be so good that it obsoletes the exorcist.

I'm pretty excited for what the new Multi-Melta rules might mean for Retributors and Immolators.

In the new Space Marine datasheets, Multi-Meltas are changed to Heavy 2 and instead of 2d6 take the highest for damage, it's +2 damage in half range.

8 Melta shots from Retributors makes them a credible alternative to Exorcists for ranged anti-tank, and using a Miracle dice, they can deal 8 damage when they get through.

The Twin-Melta Immolator would also outshoot a quad-Las Predator.

I for one welcome our new melta overlords.

Will probably mean nothing for us until we get a new codex.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Will probably mean nothing for us until we get a new codex.

Totally true, but I'm personally a new collector and a slow painter, so if I get a whiff of something I want to add I need to get started like...now.

So retributors jumped to the top of my list just for funsies. Not like I'll get started until these are official, even if they just apply to Marines at first.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Will probably mean nothing for us until we get a new codex.

Maybe ..maybe not - hopefully all Multimeltas are created equal

When the new Marine Codex drops they're either going to need to bump up the cost of the Marines MultiMelta or update the weapon across the imperium.
There's so many shared guns and it's extremely crappy to pay the same points cost for the old and new, given the disparity. It's more than twice as good.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Will probably mean nothing for us until we get a new codex.

It also means a very likely nerf to miracle dice. Even if the new melta rule only applies to multimeltas, they can't really have us out there guaranteeing 8(or 9 with storm of fire) damage melta shots, can they?

If the new melta rule gets put on standard melta guns, I have money on them bringing back the fething awful beta codex AoFs.

The teasings of Heavy 2 Multi-meltas and 2 damage Heavy Bolters got me WAY too excited.

A squad of 10 rets with 4 MMs already have a permanent place in my army. Looking at Eradicators doing more work for almost half of the price was a bit disheartening, but this... doubling the output of the squad... definitely will make people have to sink more fire into it instead of largely ignoring/avoiding it. Good day for me!

I think D2 Heavy Bolters may be a little much. Valorous Heart foils NuMarines pretty hard, giving them HBs in Ret squads that'll start mowing over Primaris squads will definitely scare the meta a good bit.

ERJAK wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Will probably mean nothing for us until we get a new codex.

It also means a very likely nerf to miracle dice. Even if the new melta rule only applies to multimeltas, they can't really have us out there guaranteeing 8(or 9 with storm of fire) damage melta shots, can they?

If the new melta rule gets put on standard melta guns, I have money on them bringing back the fething awful beta codex AoFs.

I'm actually thinking it'll be multi-melta specific, if it's real at all. You'd think they would apply it to the Eradicators from Indomitus if the goal was to apply this change to all melta. But that's just me wildly speculating.

Eh, the ATV could be a more updated thought and the Eradicator could be relying on an older melta rule.

It could also be the difference between a melta rifle and a multi-melta.

I think +2 damage at half range is a good buff for melta. And even having the potential to get 9 damage on 1 damage die (if it is allowed to violate the "max of 6" rule) is strong... until you realize that ranged artillery unit is getting into charge range of stuff (being within 12", or 18" if using 2 CP).

Sure, the Rets are going to be encouraged to stomp up the field a little more... but it doesn't come without risks. Getting them tagged is going to cost you at least 2 CP to disengage and shoot... 4 CP if they're tri-pointed. If it doesn't just flat out cost you the whole unit from getting smashed by the opponent.

Edit: Reviewed the min/max die roll, and it says it can be modified ABOVE its maximum value, but not below 1. So 9 damage on a d6 is fair game. Can one-shot 8 wound models if that rule turns out to be true, but still need 2 or more to get through to melt most vehicles... so while strong, it doesn't change things MUCH. Hope it does pan out to be true.

You're focusing on the wrong thing, I think.

Double the shots, especially for a unit with Armorium Cherubs, is itself a fantastic benefit before you even consider the new damage rule. It makes these weapons much more competitive than they are today.

A 110 points Retributors unit with 2 meltas and two Cherubs will now reach out with 8 shots.

A Celestian squad upgrading from a normal melta to a multi now gains an extra shot and range, and thanks to rerolls they were already hitting on the move at 75% accuracy near a Canoness.

I'm a bit confused on the Admech soup. According to GT2020 pg 4, if tournies are using the GT rules now, Battle-Forged armies must be selected, and the KEYWORD cannot be keyword Chaos, Imperium, Aeldari, Ynnari or Tyranids unless its a Fort. So SoB and Admech only share Faction: Imperium as a keyword, so to me this seems like it would no longer be allowed to soup with us under new rules. Now, organizers may allow it, but it isn't RAW according to the new rules that supposedly everyone is planning on following. I'd caution going down the path of souping this with if we want to actually be GT2020 capable until ITC/ETC look to create actual packets of their own that might bypass this.

That rule applies to detachments, not armies.

All the units in each detachment- not all the units in your army

Its the same wording from 8th they have just relocated it and added a bit before to remove specialist detachments

I have one detatchment that is wholey admech and one wholey SoB I meet the requirement

Regarding the melta discussion above, I think MMs will be a bit more viable. The issue i see is no one used them in 8th. So they are trying to revamp their viability back to what they used to be. MMs were at one point one of the most feared weapons in mid ranged fights. Given the amounts of various firepower out there, they took a back seat. And only SoB can default to an 8W granted shot, so its not like the imperium as a whole gets it. We give up things for that capability. I think a 32p model putting out 24" Heavy 2 shots at T3/1W with some ability to miracle allows us a competitive fight to the Eradicators. 140 gets us 30" threat range on 8 melta shots, T3, 5Ws. 120 gets them 30-36" range, 6 shots, T5/9Ws. That's much more comparable now for the MMs on what we can get in return for the points on the Rets


Automatically Appended Next Post:

U02dah4 wrote:
All the units in each detachment- not all the units in your army

Its the same wording from 8th they have just relocated it and added a bit before to remove specialist detachments

I have one detatchment that is wholey admech and one wholey SoB I meet the requirement

Ah, understood.

Purifying Tempest wrote:
Eh, the ATV could be a more updated thought and the Eradicator could be relying on an older melta rule.

It could also be the difference between a melta rifle and a multi-melta.

I think +2 damage at half range is a good buff for melta. And even having the potential to get 9 damage on 1 damage die (if it is allowed to violate the "max of 6" rule) is strong... until you realize that ranged artillery unit is getting into charge range of stuff (being within 12", or 18" if using 2 CP).

Sure, the Rets are going to be encouraged to stomp up the field a little more... but it doesn't come without risks. Getting them tagged is going to cost you at least 2 CP to disengage and shoot... 4 CP if they're tri-pointed. If it doesn't just flat out cost you the whole unit from getting smashed by the opponent.

Edit: Reviewed the min/max die roll, and it says it can be modified ABOVE its maximum value, but not below 1. So 9 damage on a d6 is fair game. Can one-shot 8 wound models if that rule turns out to be true, but still need 2 or more to get through to melt most vehicles... so while strong, it doesn't change things MUCH. Hope it does pan out to be true.

Fun fact, that same rules interaction lets you save a mortifiers from an AP-5 shot with a 6 and 3 other miracle dice

Also, by the time they get tagged, you've shot at least twice if you're not a scrub.

And you don't NEED melta range fod them to now be really, really good. 12 melta shots out of a unit as cheap as rets is plenty great on its own.

Oh, I am 100% Heavy 2 is so much more significant than 1d6+2. I think the damage change is just... novel. The Rate of Fire change is... very altering for the Retributor squad that was languishing in the face of units like Eradicators and the Exorcist.

I was more arguing against Rets getting much value out of the half range boost being of value to them. They're going to be doing their damage from further away.

I'm also intrigued on what this means for the TL MM turret on the Immolator. Sure, it is still a pricey transport, but putting out more dakka than a quad-las predator is something (it does have the hull mounted HB). Transports got a sizable buff in 9th with being able to move your slow foot models into a proper position. I guess time and testing may tell for that, though.

I'd consider 145 pts for a 4 shots of MM at T7/10W transport. At that point, after it drops the kids off at the pool, its still doing some damage for its point value potential. Pricey, for sure, but damage potential is there, and is far superior to the flamer for 20 pts. Take on the possibility of HBs moving to D2 across the board with the invictor spoiler today and that is a rather formidable transport suddenly. Or even the TL HB option at the 125 point has the potential for 9 shots S5 -1 D2 damage that can shoot into combat, and i'd consider that at least against a Rhino. That can clear an intercessor squad on its own and make its points back as my transport. If HBs are update to Heavy 1 S5 D2, i don't think that is worth 15 pts on a vehicle and really kills the forced inclusion on many vehicles in the game, so the leak is TBD on how true the change is to models outside of the invictor.

My main concern with the change over is that while you get more output from the transport, you drop the troop capacity so we're not towing max Repentia or Celestials anymore, and i don't know if that would be the direction to go for board control even with the extra shooting. Considering they give us such good mid board control on countering mid objectives, having to drop 3-4 (if bringing characters to assist) per squad is rough.

What I find interesting with the melta proposal is that if FW codex is released and Repressors stay similar, an MM Ret squad warehoused in that puts just about any other tanks firing capacity to shame and only comes out at 249 for the pair, armourium cherubs/simulacrum aside. Its a cheap way to get T7 armor 12W ablative on 8 MM shots in range quickly, and they still no longer suffer the move and shoot. And possibly better if the firing port rules read as they are now where the restrictions that apply to the vehicle also apply to them since the vehicle now CAN shoot into combat at -1. It could be a very spicy combination. But could also not even exists if Repressors go the way of Legends since they aren't in MFM.

Dragonbeef4Life wrote:
I'd consider 145 pts for a 4 shots of MM at T7/10W transport. At that point, after it drops the kids off at the pool, its still doing some damage for its point value potential. Pricey, for sure, but damage potential is there, and is far superior to the flamer for 20 pts. Take on the possibility of HBs moving to D2 across the board with the invictor spoiler today and that is a rather formidable transport suddenly. Or even the TL HB option at the 125 point has the potential for 9 shots S5 -1 D2 damage that can shoot into combat, and i'd consider that at least against a Rhino. That can clear an intercessor squad on its own and make its points back as my transport. If HBs are update to Heavy 1 S5 D2, i don't think that is worth 15 pts on a vehicle and really kills the forced inclusion on many vehicles in the game, so the leak is TBD on how true the change is to models outside of the invictor.

My main concern with the change over is that while you get more output from the transport, you drop the troop capacity so we're not towing max Repentia or Celestials anymore, and i don't know if that would be the direction to go for board control even with the extra shooting. Considering they give us such good mid board control on countering mid objectives, having to drop 3-4 (if bringing characters to assist) per squad is rough.

What I find interesting with the melta proposal is that if FW codex is released and Repressors stay similar, an MM Ret squad warehoused in that puts just about any other tanks firing capacity to shame and only comes out at 249 for the pair, armourium cherubs/simulacrum aside. Its a cheap way to get T7 armor 12W ablative on 8 MM shots in range quickly, and they still no longer suffer the move and shoot. And possibly better if the firing port rules read as they are now where the restrictions that apply to the vehicle also apply to them since the vehicle now CAN shoot into combat at -1. It could be a very spicy combination. But could also not even exists if Repressors go the way of Legends since they aren't in MFM.

Repressors are almost certainly going to legends.

And I think the thing with the immolator is that if we get these new melta stats, the immolator will have the output of a lot of army's battle tanks. You're more than doubling it's output while keeping it the same 145pts, all you really need is to have something it can drop on objectives when it dies and it'll be worth that price easy.

The fact that you can put things like repentia in one is just a bonus at that point. Same as being able to guarantee an explosion.

If the melta rule goes to Immos, I would definately consider putting an immo in reserve to outflank and get at any targets that my exos can't reach due to obscuring or whatever.
In fact if they do get it, I will definately be doing this.

ERJAK wrote:


The fact that you can put things like repentia in one is just a bonus at that point. Same as being able to guarantee an explosion.

Perhaps even just Battle Sisters for obsec. They weren't going to be contributing much offense up to that point anyway.

Don't get your hopes up getting those mm's. Gw hasn't Historically been shy of having same name, different rules(there's already 2 differerent multi-melta) and bespoke datasheets make it easy


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Purifying Tempest wrote:
The teasings of Heavy 2 Multi-meltas and 2 damage Heavy Bolters got me WAY too excited.

A squad of 10 rets with 4 MMs already have a permanent place in my army. Looking at Eradicators doing more work for almost half of the price was a bit disheartening, but this... doubling the output of the squad... definitely will make people have to sink more fire into it instead of largely ignoring/avoiding it. Good day for me!

I think D2 Heavy Bolters may be a little much. Valorous Heart foils NuMarines pretty hard, giving them HBs in Ret squads that'll start mowing over Primaris squads will definitely scare the meta a good bit.

What's so fun about dam2 heavy bolter? You lose 2 shots. 3 dam1 shots vs 1 dam2 shots...even vs w2 models you lose off

The assumption that it stays at its current profile. I think BOTH changes (the extra MM shot AND D2 HB rounds at Heavy 3) will push Sororitas into an ugly position. I think Heavy 1 D2 Heavy Bolters will be a VERY disappointing change, and makes very little sense for 15 point tax on ALL of our chassis except for the Rhino. You want to see some salt? Lol, strap a HB onto all of our vehicles and then destroy the profile to something unusable like that... coupled with paying MORE to strap it to said vehicles.

I mean, there's bone-headed moves, but Heavy 1 at Damage 2 to a 15 point tax to like 75% of our fleet is terrible even by design's standards. Unless they want to sell more Rhino chassis... I guess that's always a possibility.

I'm not saying it is going to happen, and I'll definitely believe it when I see it... but there's so many indicators for the Multi-Melta change at this point.

1) It was spoiled on a new data slate for 9th edition.

2) The lascannon is, for whatever reason, priced at 5 points lower than the current MM. It was already arguably better with the extra range and abundance of invulnerable saves on many of the appropriate targets... now it is just OBVIOUSLY better.

3) The sheer existence of Eradicators... though external balance means very little to GW, but Eradicators are criminally underpriced vs every other similar unit... perhaps even internally to the SM codex. I honestly don't know if Devastators can take MMs, but no reasonable SM player concerned with performance would make that swap if able. Largely due to point 2, but if for some reason they NEEDED melta... then they'd just bring Eradicators.

I don't assume they're going to do much with the Heavy Bolter, but it looks like they're supposedly toying with making it D2... at some indetermined # of shots that may be 1 or 3. If it is Heavy 1 at 15 points... it better to a flat 6 damage. But it is safe to assume that WON'T be the case, so the only reasonable assumption is Heavy 3 at D2. Which turns Sisters into NuMarine killers of meta-tossing levels. And I'm not sure how much I like that idea, in all honesty. Though, I guess it will sell A LOT of extra Sororitas boxes, for those who participate in those conspiracies.

RE: Heavy Bolters

There is a leaked image of the Invictor heavy bolter profile as 1 shot, 2D. If this extends to heavy bolters across the board, this would be a severe nerf to an already meh weapon. I don't have time to sim, but 3 shots at 1D vs MEQ averages out at 2/3 of a wound inflicted. 1 shot at 2D vs MEQ averages 2/9 of a wound inflicted on single-wound models, 4/9 of a wound vs multi-wound models. That's at best 2/3 as effective as the 8th edition heavy bolter.

However, it is not entirely clear that the "pistol" heavy bolter of the Invictor Warsuit will continue to be called a Heavy Bolter. I could easily be renamed, as it is obvious from the image that the 2x Ironhail Heavy Stubbers will be a new combined weapon with a single profile.

Hmm. Immolators are even worse than before it seems. Glad I went with entirely Rhinos, but that's kinda sad.

 Melissia wrote:
Hmm. Immolators are even worse than before it seems. Glad I went with entirely Rhinos, but that's kinda sad.

If they roll out heavy 2 and +2 damage at half range to all multi meltas across the board then a 4shot melta immolator isnt looking too bad anymore

Well unless the enemy goes first and kills your overpriced squad

 warmaster21 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Hmm. Immolators are even worse than before it seems. Glad I went with entirely Rhinos, but that's kinda sad.

If they roll out heavy 2 and +2 damage at half range to all multi meltas across the board then a 4shot melta immolator isnt looking too bad anymore

The problem is the price makes it so you have to sacrifice a LOT for that firepower.