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recently decided to play Fantasy after playing 40K for several years, after looking things over i decided to play high elves. one thing about my decision is that i don's really care if they are easy, hard, or one of the best or crappiest armies i just like the looks and i dont care if i win or lose, i just enjoy playing. however, after looking over the rulebook and the codex i feel kinda slowed, so im looking for any kind of help on what i should invest time and money into. so far im looking at making my core archers and sea guard, as well as maxing my rare choices with repeating bolt throwers. i like the sounds of the chariots and phoenix guard, and will probly feild one or two units of silver helms. unfortunatly where im getting really bogged down is in the HQ area, i know elves are good at magic and negating magic so i have to figure out a way to put maybe two mages in and maybe a noble to go with the phoenix guard or sea guard. but this is all new to me so im still talking to people and reading the books again and looking online so like i said any help would be great.

Core choices: Units of Archers (minimum size each) are really the best choice here. You never want to field more then the compulsory amount of Core choices. The only use of the Archers is to protect your Repeater Bolt Throwers.

Special choices: This is where the High Elves have their combat units. Most people take Swordmasters or Dragon Princes as hammer units. The War Lion Chariot is a decent hammer unit as well, though it won't win any combats on it's own (needs to combine charge with a Dragon Prince unit or another War Lion Chariot). Phoenix Guard are an anvil unit. I'm personally not a fan of the Tiranoc Chariot, Shadow Warriors, White Lions and Silver Helms. Shadow Warriors could be included as Warmachine and Wizard hunters, if you decide not to field a Great Eagle. The Tiranoc Chariot and Silverhelms are just cheaper versions of better units (I'd always opt for the better units; War Lion Chariots and Dragon Princes).

Rare choices: Both the Repeater Bolt Thrower and the Great Eagle are very important units in the High Elves army. I usually go for a 50/50 split between these units, filling all Rare choices available.

Characters: This is where the power of the High Elves army really lies. The Stardragon Prince is one of the most dangerous units in WHFB. High Elves Magic is also one of the best out there (together with Tzeentch, Dark Elves, Lizardmen and Vampire Counts).

Thanks for the advice. I was worried about the special units, sinking to much points into one unit. I was thinking of just taking several cheaper units, but i agree with you that the special units are extremely nice and powerful. I had planned that if i did take any chariot it would be the lion chariot, plus I would take around 3 that way they would hold there on.

I don'r know very much of HE, but what i know is: 1) Swordmasters are very good in combat. 2) Even though you can have a hero on a dragon, you shouln't take one until, say, 1500 points. Thats my opinion.

I agree with most of Airmaniac's assessment of the list. Just some mild disagreements/differing view points:

Archers are the most economical Core choice, certainly - cheapest way to fulfill HE Core requirements and offering more points for the Special choices which really do the heavy hitting in the army. However, I wouldn't discount a block of 21 Spearelves. While they're only S3, T3 Sv5+ units, with ASF and fight with extra ranks, they're not a unit that can be necessarily shrugged off. I personally like to run 1 block of spears in most of my lists, but again, this is a personal choice. 2x 10 archers is still more efficient, points wise.

The only real underwhelming units, imo, are the Ellyrian Reavers, Silver Helms and Shadow Warriors. The White Lions aren't a bad unit in the least and fill a strange role between Swordmasters and Phoenix Guard. Their White Lion Cloaks provide nice protection against enemy shooting, which while not quite as nice as the Ward save of the PG, offer added protection compared to the more vulnerable Swordmasters. The S6 ASF attacks also make them quite brutal - less than the number of attacks that SM can dish out, but dealing a lot more damage per hit than the PG. Stubborn and Woodsmen make them reliable and mobile combat units. While some prefer the more defined roles of the Swordmasters or PG, the White Lions can provide a flexible unit for the High Elves.

With regard to Tiranoc Chariots, they don't have the staying power of the White Lion Chariots, but you're relying on its movement (M9 compared to the M7 of the WLC) and Impact Hits in concert with a DP charge to dish out damage and break the enemy unit on the charge rather than getting stuck in. They're also roughly 1/2 the points, so you can potentially have more of them for the price of one WLC. Still, it comes down to preference. For the most part, the Tiranocs have treated me quite well in my games with them.

With heroes - unless you're planning on fielding a dragon, avoid Princes - their points don't quite justify their marginal improvement over Nobles. Dragon Mages in games <1.5k are deadly.

I would also like to add that a 3:1 ratio of RBTs to eagles has served me well, and with 20 archers gives a real threat from shooting (well not really the archers but the RBTs do)

I have been goin through several list and where i fall short is in the leader section. Right now i only have 1 lvl 2 mage w/ trickster pendent and silver wand on foot. the rest of the army is 20 archers, 15 sea guard, 3 chariots, 3 bolt throwers, 1 great eagle, 10 dragon princes, 10 phoenix gaurd w/ banner of sorcery, and 10 sword masters. I think I am too heavy on the special area.

Out of left field but I'm considering:

Eltharion
x2 level 2 mages
BSB with ? Battle banner
x3 units 23 spearmen (one with warbanner, which gets the BSB as well)
x4 6 man units of shadow warriors
3 repeater bolt throwers
Eagle.

3 level 2 mages
3 defensive blocks of infantry (as it is a defensive army)
24 archers (shadow warriors) who will be great at hiding in terrain, and harder to kill with shooting thanks to skirmish
3 bolt throwers
Eagle march blocks.

I've been rolling up phoenix guard and white lions vs spearmen and the spearmen win almost without fail.

Now I do realise that vs heavy armour/high toughness the spears are the crappiest selection but for almost same points its 23 spears, 6 wide with full command, or 14 'elite' HE infantry with command.

People baulk at attacking 3 ranks of spears.


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At work ATM (so don't have army book) but aren't the WL Chariots M8 Jin?

My question is how do you deal with high toughness decent save armies with magical defense so you cannot get off the spell from metal (which on 3 dice max is tough anyways)

Warriors of Chaos laugh at your shooting and spears

Lizardmen probably have slaan and a decent amount of dispel dice, also laugh.

Skaven run terrified as do Woodelves, Dark Elves are looking worried.

Empire Steam Tank x2 laughs and kills models to its delight.

Well i think PG and White Lions are the perfect target for Spearmen, they have low t, white lions have low save, PG a decent one (~3+) and low # of attacks. So fighting each other they should win. Look at how each takes a charge from cavalry to see how they all fare as well (tbh i dont know, probably depends on caliber of cav)



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WL chariots are M8

PFt. That they are. My bad.

Spearmen force a defensive stance.

Sure you can moe forward, but all that does is give you fewer turns of shooting. Spears WANT to be charged, and most enemies are reluctant.

tiekwando. HEs are a combined arms force. Magic doesn't work, shoot, shooting doesn't work, fight.

RBTs on single shot will smash a steam tank. As soon as it moves forward it will be under half range, Hitting on 3+, +1 for Large Target, so hitting on a 2 (why I have 3 in my camping list, to kill big stuff) and wounding on a 4+ (d3 wounds no armour save)

2 turns of shooting (I'm looking at the skeinsilver for and extra +1 to deployment, with the scouted (can still deploy in my deployment zone) shadow warriors my list has... 6 deployments. so I can get first turn, and more shooting in.

Scouting and skirmish are the real strengths of shadow warriors and they have extra range of their longbows.

And after those 2 turns I should be at 2 wounds first turn, 3-4 wounds second turn.... steam tank nerfed.

Also the combat units coming at you will have models picked off.

6 Chaos knights with banner of rage is terrifying, but after being redirected by the eagle, lost 2 models and flank charged by a fully ranked unit of spears... they aint so tough.


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Dwarves will also have to move forward... thuderers will be out of range, organ gun and flame cannon out of range.

As will DE x-bows.

You can out camp campers.

Well the way I have my mage set up on paper is to give him a crap ton of dice so he can dispell any enemy magic.

fenrir232 wrote:I have been goin through several list and where i fall short is in the leader section. Right now i only have 1 lvl 2 mage w/ trickster pendent and silver wand on foot. the rest of the army is 20 archers, 15 sea guard, 3 chariots, 3 bolt throwers, 1 great eagle, 10 dragon princes, 10 phoenix gaurd w/ banner of sorcery, and 10 sword masters. I think I am too heavy on the special area.

I would highly recommend taking either just 20 archers (2x 10) or 10 archers and the 15 sea guard for Core. This army lives and dies by the Special choices, so avoiding unnecessary expenses on Core will help you out.

Assuming you're playing for 2000 points, bump those PG up to 15 (or 18). You want to make better use of their Fear ability, so you want a moderate to large Unit Strength to help auto-break enemy units. The extra bodies also help ensure the Banner of Sorcery sticks around for a bit longer.

I would run the Dragon Princes in two units of 5 (or 6 if you can manage the points). More mobile that way. You'd have to drop a chariot, though (Lion Chariots? Or Tiranocs?).

Another point: Mages can't take 2 Arcane Items - so you can't have both the Trickster's Pendant and Silver Wand on a single mage. A better option would be a level 2 with Silver Wand and Ring of Fury or Dispel Scrolls.

fenrir232 wrote:Well the way I have my mage set up on paper is to give him a crap ton of dice so he can dispell any enemy magic.

If that lone mage is your only hero, he will not be able to do much - you only get 3 Dispel Dice with him (remember, BoS only gives you Power Dice in your own Magic Phase). If you want to get more mileage out of the Banner of Sorcery, try to find the points to get a Lvl4 Archmage to lead.

I was looking at tiranocs due to the points, i get three for the price of two lion one's. i like the lion chariots and its stats. as far as items and banners thats where things get confusing. for mages its says 2 magic items up to 50pts, im unsure if this means arcane, magic, talismans, etc.

So I should just favor the 2, 10 man archer squads over any sea guard. gotcha.

Like you said, try to find points to put a archmage and maybe a mage or another hero.

So basically I'm not far off on my understanding of the army and the lists but still need some work. Mainly, I feel like im lacking on the hero, general section.

Waaagh, completely agree just wanted to see how you would do it. I still think it suffers the same problems as all gunlines and i think it looks oddly familiar to an empire gunline (crossbows for longbows, skirmishing archers, cannons for RBTs swordsmen + detachments for spearmen, can have decent magic) with appropriate bonuses and negatives associated and we all know that the Empire list works out pretty decently.

I think i just have not had the luck against steam tanks, even with 3 RBTs, but thats probably just an i was seriously unlucky factor

@fenrir popular builds for magic heavy are

1)Archmage lvl 4 Ring of Fury, Sliverwand Scroll, Scroll
Mage lvl 2 Seerstaff, Scroll
gives you 9-11pd (with banner of sorcery) and a good bound with 3 scrolls for defense
some people play around with the archmage slightly and change the silverwand for another arcane item

2)Unkillable Archmage - Talisman of Saphery, Forlaiths Robes, Scroll/Silverwand
With same lvl 2 Mage as support or Lvl2 Silverwand RoF

3)Saw one guy run an archmage on eagle, Loremasters Cloak, Ring of Fury, Scroll/Silverwand

For Heroes: (note all can be BSBs though some work better)
on foot
Noble, Armor of Caldedor, (Guardian Phoenix if you want) GW
Noble, Reaver Bow, GW, DA (dragon armor) shield

On Horse:
Noble,Helm of Fortune, DP kit (barded horse, DA, Shield, Lance)
Noble,Starlance DP kit
Noble, BSB, DP Kit, Battle Banner

no where near exhaustive but i think its some of the more popular builds, if you want a prince then there are more but seeing as how you didn't seem too interested i didnt bother listing them. Oh and i didnt include any special character builds because they alter everything.

Yeah I going to just play without characters for a while. Right now I am having troubles building an army with just the basic units and staying under point limit, and characters are usually expensive. That would just add to my problems. Although, looking at them they are rather nice.

Well dont get too used to playing with no characters becuase you will have to cut out those units.

What are you trying to do right now, with moderate characters you can fit a lot in a High Elf army.

i guess i will kinda repeat what airmaniac says:

2x10 archers are your core at first (220 points)

Rare: some combination of eagles and RBTs with at least 2 RBTs and 1 eagle and a max of 3 rbts or 2 eagles
(250-350 points)

ok you have the basic HE army now its time to make it yours and that is why we have specials.

5 Dragon Princes are pretty standard you can add more models or give them banners but for now leave them "naked" 150 points

14-15 elites with champ, standard and probably musician, these will probably be carrying a magic banner and will be White Lions, Phoenix Guard or Sword Masters (234-255+magic banner)

Rest of special to fit, whether its chariots, more infantry blocks, DPs or something less commonly used like shadow warriors or reavers.

Hero:
This is totally up to you but for decent magic, Arcmage + lvl 2 mage and a banner of sorcery somewhere is pretty good, maybe bsb.
If you dont want decent magic then Mage lvl 1 2x scrolls (also called caddy) maybe two of these. Probably Noble (prince is not usually worth it unless you go for a dragon) and maybe BSB.
If you want a stardragon then prince on dragon, maybe bsb, at least 1 caddy maybe two

Your characters can be as low as 250 (noble, mage), or 580 for Archmage, mage and BOS, and can get quite high with stardragon.

So for medium character builds ~500-600 seems reasonable for core characters (add extra nobles/mages as required)

That means you have spent 220+(250-350)+150+(234-255)+(500-600) so a range from 914 to 1135.
Gives you a decent amount of points to customize your army to your tastes, such as a bsb, extra block of infantry and two chariots etc.





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this will get altered and you can take spears and other core but for now i wanted to give you the basics of the list in most armies (some people will go different, but i see most lists use something similar to this for its basic structure)

Thanks, that's pretty much the way i have been start these list now. Earlier i was starting with cores and fielding about 3-4 and then moving to specials. Played to much 40K, got to have those troops. I have begun now to do basic cores and then loading up on the basic specials. After that adding in the HQ area then with the points left over fulling up the specials.

Just want to bounce this off you guys. Went to the store i play at and talked to a bunch of the guys there. They see having 3 or more repeating bolt throwers as cheap, and told me that if I did do it not many of them would play me. I think that is a little gay and probly will still do it. They also suggested putting all the mages with the phoenix guard and to add a mage w/ annulian cyrstal and a noble. I had a list somewhat put together that had 3 tiranoc chariots. They told me to take out 2 of them and substitute that with just 1 lion chariot. My list was made out to 2000 points but apparently they play at 2250.

Well if they are not a competitive club then they might worry about that. You can get by with two. Really it wont matter that much in the course of everything. I am surprised they are bent out of shape for 3 rbts, i wonder how much they would scream at teclis or a stardragon...

I personally like tironac chariots, but that probably just because i am old fashioned.

2250 just means more points to flesh out your units. I don't know what list your using if you post it, it would be easier to comment. Mages in PG are good because PG dont really die that easily.

If you already had 2 then how are they equiped? If one is an archmage with at least a scroll and the other is a seerstaff scroll mage, then that should be a decent defense i would think. Especially if they complain about 3 rbts then they must be pissed at 12 pd armies.

Noble can be good, if you want to "replace" your RBT then give him the reaver bow it fires 3 s5 shots at bs6, so you will be hitting a lot on 2s.

Much of it is based off your suggestions, tiekwando. I liked to add that they wanted to add musicicans to the archers. But the list they suggested is as follows:

Archmage - lvl 4, ring of fury, silver wand, 2 dispel scrolls, will use high elf magic or fire (possibly mounted on barded elven steed

2 Mages - both lvl 2, one with dispel scroll and seerstaff, and the other with the annulian crystal - seerstaff mage will take spell 2 and 4 from heavens lore, the other will be fire

Noble - Dragon armor, shield, great weapon, reaver bow

most of these guys will be in the phoenix guard and in cover just shooting everything they got.

2 repeating bolt throwers

2 great eagles

2 choices of archers at 10 strong a piece

2 choices of dragon princes at 5 strong a piece

lion chariot

tiranoc chariot

phoenix guard at 15 strong - champion w/ foe bane, musician, standard bearer w/ banner of sorcery

that gives me a power dice pile of between 13-15 and a dispel pile of 5-6 plus the 3 dispel scrolls

I feel kinda iffy on this. I feel I have to many points sunk into leaders and phoenix guard. But then again I really dont know much when it comes to fantasy so this could be the norm

I'm also kind of surprised that they view 3 RBT's as cheesy. While they're a great choice for HE's, 100 points becomes fairly premium pretty quickly with High Elves. It's not terribly insurmountable. I actually would hate to face more Mages than face 3 RBTs, but that's merely personal opinion. You went from a moderately heavy magic phase to an extremely heavy magic phase with their suggestions. Also, depending on who you'd be playing, the seerstaff mage may want to take Lore of Beasts to ensure "Beast Cowers" spells.

Don't bother with the Foe Bane - you'd be better off with the Skeinsliver on the champion for the +1 to go First. Given how few units you have, it should net you the +2 to go First most games. Also, putting everyone in the PG unit is a bit dangerous considering that you'd be stuck with a front rank full of easily killable heroes should someone manage a charge against them and PG aren't exactly great at dishing out CC damage.

If you can find the points, try to bump the DPs to 6 a piece. It gives them a nice little buffer to weather some shooting.

While I understand the arguments for a Lion Chariot, the Tiranocs aren't terrible choice and make for a great co-charger with a unit of DPs.

I'm still not quite sure why they suggested you take an even heavier magic build since 11+ PD builds tend to be considered overpowering.

Do the guys at your store play with a lot of Magic? You seem to be spending a lot of points on Magic defense (Annulian Crystal, 3 Dispel Scrolls).

I'm just not a big fan of Chariots. Lion Chariots can be decent, since they can do some damage when not charging as well. Tiranoc Chariots are just terrible in my opinion. They don't break ranks when charging the Flank (not enough Unit Strength), they only deal decent damage on the charge, they are instantly wrecked by S7+ weaponry and they don't even have Fear, so breaking the opponent on the charge (which is needed since they are only good on the charge) doesn't happen that often either.

I agree with Jin and with you that you have spent a quite a few points on characters. Now I have done that too, but i usually enjoy my games more when there are more boots on the field.

About the seerstaff mage, dont choose yet! wait till your opponents, its ok to get d3 re-rolls (though if your like me you'll forget to use them...) and a d6 magic missile, but there are other great options. Metal can be so much fun if you are going against high armor enemies.

As for the fire lore, i generally find that other lores just to better. Fire is a pretty expensive lore and i think two of the spells aren't great (#2 you should never be in combat and if you are, they will dispel,#5 usually a fireball, sometimes a fireblast for 11+)

Anyways my advice is, dont choose till you get to the game and know what your up against.

I also agree with part of airmaniacs post, you have 3 scrolls and 7dd, which while it is amazing, is probably overkill. You can probably get away with dropping a scroll, or the anullian crystal, if you choose to drop the crystal you can go with jewel of dusk if you want, or if they are all really magic heavy you can choose tricksters pendant (something i normally would not suggest)

Chariots i feel are a mixed bag, they have their weaknesses but also their strengths, i like the tiranoc for guarding my bolt thrower and adding weight to a charge. They are cheap protection and can either outrun most fast cav, or survive against most fliers (and if they forget it has an 18 inch charge range...)

The reason i do not like Lion chariots is because, although the can do damage in the second round, i like my DPs better. Fear rarely becomes an issue because you are not going to outnumber your opponent, so it will only make them hit you on sixs in the first round, which you should kill the 3-4 in base contact anyway if you want a chance at breaking them.

I will probly just drop the mage with annulian cyrstal all together. From the most part what i have seen in the form og magic armies is, Slann and maybe one magic user in an Empire army. I havent seen the vamp army that plays nor the Wood elves. There is also a chaos army and drwaves, but they had an anvil and the chaos had 2 generals on fling disks, one may have been a magic user but he didnt use any.

I know i will put the noble in the Phoenix guard, but i was temped to leave the mages out by themselves just in the back field.

Also with dropping the mage (175) and maybe either the lion chariot (140) or the tiranoc chariot (85) that frees up a lot of points to add another unit or even upgrades for my dragon princes.

Hmm mages dont like being on their own unless the opponent has very little in the way of shooting, magic missiles and fast flyers. I usually stick them in the PG, or archers, and if worse comes to worse in the RBT, where he has some protection from shooting (it has to be randomized).

Hmm sounds like your group has a caddy list, dwarves (no magic), Chaos sounds like 2 tzeentch guys, if you didn't see any magic then it was probably one caddy again (otherwise nurgle is better on a lvl 2, and a lvl 4 would cast something). That leaves the Vamp and the Slann, both of which are going to be magic heavy. My advice against the VC is try to get drain magic off, it will slow his magic phase if it goes off. If you can get it off twice, then he wont do anything. Against the slann, well you are going to have to bear the brunt of a great magic offense, and probably a great magic defense.

That was what i was thinking of doing instead of leaving them out alone. I will put the noble in with the archers or the phoenix guard and probly the archmage in the phoenix guard as well. To spread the leaders out I will put the other mage into the archers.

Of course thinking of it now i can put the noble in one archer squad and the mage in the other and have the archmage in the PG.

But if i drop the other mage and both chariots that gives me 424 points to play with.I could be slowed and give the archmage a dragon. I will probly add some guys to the DPs. and probly another special unit.

Well got the beginnings on my army. Got a box of phoenix guard and phoenix guard command, as well as to warhawks from the wood elf army that im goin to make into my great eagles. I did this cause I like the looks of the hawks vs the eagles. Plus ordered a army box from GW.