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After a few games its occured to me I need more hammers and less spearmen. I think this list might be alright

1 Teclis
1 Level 1 Mage x2 dispell scroll
1 Level 1 Mage ring of fury
1 Mounted Noble w/ star lance

10 archers
10 archers

7 Swordmasters w/ champ & skeinsliver
7 Swordmasters
7 Swordmasters w/ banner bearer & banner of sorcery
5 dragon princes
5 Shadow Warriors (for warmachines)
5 Shadow Warriors (for warmachines)

Repeater Bolt Thrower
Repeater Bolt Thrower
Repeater Bolt Thrower
Repeater Bolt Thrower

Eagles did annoy my opponents but I felt that overall they did not actually do their job, shadow warriors have slightly greater potential, if i can get them there. Do I have too many characters? What should I get in place of one or two of them?

Which units are your Wizards joining?

I think giving a unit with 7 T3 Sv5+ wounds the Banner of Sorcery is not a very good idea. The Banner of Sorcery is a good choice though. A more survivable unit is just better suited carrying it (like a Dragon Prince or Phoenix Guard unit).

I'm not a fan of Shadow Warriors at all. They aren't anywhere near as good as Great Eagles as Warmachine hunters. Your opponent won't let them scout near their Warmachines, and their shooting will be largely ineffective against the crew, as 2 out of 3 hits will hit the Warmachine.

I would drop the Noble. Make both of the Mages level 2 Wizards, give the one with Ring of Fury the Silver Wand as well and drop one Dispel Scroll and add The Seerstaff of Saphery on the other Mage. You will still have enough Magic defense (6+D3 Dispel Dice, Dispel Scroll, Scroll of Hoeth, +1 to Dispel) and it will make you alot stronger in your own Magic Phase (10+2D3 Power Dice, Ring of Fury).

Take an Eagle! and i am not sure more mages than teclis is really worth it in my opinion, i usually find that he is enough, the other two will just get scrolled or dispelled as teclis is usually casting on IF. As for magic defense i went against Kairos, 3x10 horror units, Blue scribes, and a lvl 2 in 2000 point game (last hero was skulltaker in case you were wondering) and managed ok with Teclis (draw with me up 200 points, and i only got one spell off, stupid miscasts every turn) , just prioritize what you let through, though if you really want, take 1 lvl 1 with 2x scrolls or anullian crystal (7-9 dd is nothing to laugh at)

Also agree with Airmaniac that Shadow warriors just dont cut it against decent opponents unless terrain is really in your favor. And that banner of sorc is just waiting to be killed. Even combining 2 of the squads, 14 total makes me feel a little better.

I disagree about dropping the noble, though i dont feel the starlance noble is worth it, but a BSB with helm and DP kit is great, or one of my favorites in a shooting list is Reaver bow, GW noble.

Airmaniac wrote:Which units are your Wizards joining?

Archers of course, maybe the phoenix guard. I play without anvil units quite often and seem to get away with it most of the time.

Airmaniac wrote: I think giving a unit with 7 T3 Sv5+ wounds the Banner of Sorcery is not a very good idea. The Banner of Sorcery is a good choice though. A more survivable unit is just better suited carrying it (like a Dragon Prince or Phoenix Guard unit).

My bad, I meant a unit of pheonix guard, 7 is a weird number for them, but I'm not really seeing much else atm.

Airmaniac wrote:
I'm not a fan of Shadow Warriors at all. They aren't anywhere near as good as Great Eagles as Warmachine hunters. Your opponent won't let them scout near their Warmachines, and their shooting will be largely ineffective against the crew, as 2 out of 3 hits will hit the Warmachine.

I was thinking of getting them into h2h combat, everyone seems to overlook the fact that they have hatred, which is the only reason I think they are better than eagles. their shooting isn't expected to do much. The math says hatred is better, but eagles fly, can't aruge with 20" vs 10" of movement. But still, I've seen the SW suceed in the same game where the eagles were running for the hills.

Airmaniac wrote:
I would drop the Noble. Make both of the Mages level 2 Wizards, give the one with Ring of Fury the Silver Wand as well and drop one Dispel Scroll and add The Seerstaff of Saphery on the other Mage. You will still have enough Magic defense (6+D3 Dispel Dice, Dispel Scroll, Scroll of Hoeth, +1 to Dispel) and it will make you alot stronger in your own Magic Phase (10+2D3 Power Dice, Ring of Fury).

I might have the wrong idea about the magic phase, probably drop the fury mage, the noble has to stay, its an easy str7 kill a chariot no brainer. Or not, I dunno, maybe I could go magic nuts like you say. What about the dragon mage on a sun dragon?

Dragon Mages aren't really worth it in big games (they can dominate in games of 1000 points though).

I don't see how the Shadow Warriors could get into combat with a Warmachine. The enemy will prevent you from scouting near the Warmachines, and since they aren't flying, the enemy can very easily block your path to them.

I think the Star Lance is overpriced for what it does. However, if there are a lot of Chariots being fielded in your area, then it might be worth it. Around here, the only Chariots I see being fielded are the Tomb King Chariots, which cost about the same as the Star Lance does. This is why I think it isn't worth it.

I'm not a fan of fielding the Phoenix Guard in such a small unit. What I would do, is give the Banner of Sorcery to the Dragon Prince unit, and drop the Phoenix Guard unit in favor of another Swordmaster unit. In my opinion, the Banner of Sorcery will last longer in the Dragon Prince unit then it will in a small unit of Phoenix Guard.

I think you need to choose between dropping the other Mages, or going for heavy Magic. I think heavy Magic would be a very good option (perhaps mounting the level 2 Mages, so they have some mobility). I think you could even go the heavy Magic route without dropping the Noble. Simply dropping both Shadow Warrior units and a single Repeater Bolt Thrower (replacing it by a Great Eagle) and upgrading the Mages might be within the limit.
I don't agree with tiekwando about the Mages being dispelled only, since Teclis will be casting with IF all the time. With this amount of Mages, you could have Teclis cast some more spells, instead of 2 spells on 5 Power Dice each. Sure, they won't be IF as often, but you will put a lot more pressure on your opponent through your Magic Phase (more spells cast). If you really need a spell to work, you can always throw more Power Dice at it with Teclis to get that IF, but you don't always need IF.

Hmm I just find that, for the points, it is not worth it. If i were to go the second route (out PD the opponent) i think the archmage is the more economical route, but if you want to really go magic crazy (~900 points) go for it, i just think that my 525 point magic phase will still be competitive and i can spend 350 odd points on units, as well as not rely on 10 archers or 7 PG to protect my investments.

I do agree about the Star lance, s7 is moderately overrated, you have enough shooting to take out quite a few chariots, DPs can outcharge most of the nasty ones, and you can always bait and flee with SM.

I also agree with BOS on dragon princes over PG, unless the PG are just sitting behind a hill all day they DPs are a safer bet. Then as he said go for another 7 man SM unit.

The one advantage i see of shadow warriors over eagles is that it helps you in deployment get a +1 on your dice roll for first turn and you can cause a lot of damage in that first turn. you have 8 drops, which is pretty low i think for 2250.

Teclis still brings +D3 Power Dice and +D3 Dispel Dice, gets the Scroll of Hoeth and can throw a 5 Power Dice at a spell if he really needs it to get through (71% chance of IF), which is why I'd still take him over a regular Archmage, even in a Magic heavy build. The option to throw an IF Pit of Shades on Kairos Fateweaver and similar important spells is just to valuable to lose!