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2020/01/24 01:38:29
Subject: Re:8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
AlmightyWalrus wrote: But the +1 to cast and rerolls to cast relic works on a Grand Master as well, right?
EDIT: I know the two relics are two different relics, but isn't the +1 to cast and rerolls relic pretty much an auto-take?
We have two really strong psyker relics, one any character can wield that gives +1 cast and rerolls for himself, and the other is a Librarian only relic that gives you the once per turn +1 cast aura. On top of the stratagem, that's like +4
2020/01/24 02:09:03
Subject: Re:8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Isn't the Librarian one a +1 or -1 to one die for a unit within 6" per turn?
Yup.
Automatically Appended Next Post: FFridge & Greywolf, any way you guys could work with Quickjager on updating the deprecated parts of the OP? Or just create a new tactica repository for Grey Knights 1.9?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/24 03:28:00
2020/01/24 12:26:05
Subject: Re:8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
Elric Greywolf wrote: I just did a spreadsheet with a variety of options.
Basic no buffs (beyond a reroll aura), 4 psilencers vs 4 psycannons.
They are nearly identical. Volume of fire lets psilencers kill a single more Intercessor, and do a single more wound to vehicles due to Dd3.
Full rerolls, Convergence, Guidance Litany, Focus Litany, Beast strat
Psilencers start to shine. Equal number of GEQ and Intercessors killed. More wounds on T5 and on vehicles. 3.5 more wounds on Knight, with a total of 17.778 for psilencers vs 14.222 for psycannons.
Add on Psychic Onslaught, and the psilencer pulls even further ahead (because of the AP bonus), doing TWENTY THREE WOUNDS to Knights, compared to the psycannons’ 16.8.
There’s a weird issue where the guns are more points efficient on PAGK, due to decreased cost. However, if you’re already taking a unit of Pallies, it’s probably better to give them the heavies instead of buying a whole unit of Purgators or Purifiers. Also, Pallies can DS, the other two cost an extra CP to do so. And since we’re so CP hungry (many of ours cost 2CP), it might not be worth it....
Elric Greywolf wrote: I just did a spreadsheet with a variety of options.
Basic no buffs (beyond a reroll aura), 4 psilencers vs 4 psycannons.
They are nearly identical. Volume of fire lets psilencers kill a single more Intercessor, and do a single more wound to vehicles due to Dd3.
Full rerolls, Convergence, Guidance Litany, Focus Litany, Beast strat
Psilencers start to shine. Equal number of GEQ and Intercessors killed. More wounds on T5 and on vehicles. 3.5 more wounds on Knight, with a total of 17.778 for psilencers vs 14.222 for psycannons.
Add on Psychic Onslaught, and the psilencer pulls even further ahead (because of the AP bonus), doing TWENTY THREE WOUNDS to Knights, compared to the psycannons’ 16.8.
There’s a weird issue where the guns are more points efficient on PAGK, due to decreased cost. However, if you’re already taking a unit of Pallies, it’s probably better to give them the heavies instead of buying a whole unit of Purgators or Purifiers. Also, Pallies can DS, the other two cost an extra CP to do so. And since we’re so CP hungry (many of ours cost 2CP), it might not be worth it....
On top of that, the Psilencer is cheaper. There's no reason to go Psycannon to be honest.
Draigo, two Chaplains, two Stratagems. How often are you going to have all these buffs rolling? Once or twice per game? On a single unit?
Realistically you're never going to deal TWENTY THREE WOUNDS.
2020/01/24 18:44:53
Subject: 8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
Elric Greywolf wrote: I just did a spreadsheet with a variety of options.
Basic no buffs (beyond a reroll aura), 4 psilencers vs 4 psycannons.
They are nearly identical. Volume of fire lets psilencers kill a single more Intercessor, and do a single more wound to vehicles due to Dd3.
Full rerolls, Convergence, Guidance Litany, Focus Litany, Beast strat
Psilencers start to shine. Equal number of GEQ and Intercessors killed. More wounds on T5 and on vehicles. 3.5 more wounds on Knight, with a total of 17.778 for psilencers vs 14.222 for psycannons.
Add on Psychic Onslaught, and the psilencer pulls even further ahead (because of the AP bonus), doing TWENTY THREE WOUNDS to Knights, compared to the psycannons’ 16.8.
There’s a weird issue where the guns are more points efficient on PAGK, due to decreased cost. However, if you’re already taking a unit of Pallies, it’s probably better to give them the heavies instead of buying a whole unit of Purgators or Purifiers. Also, Pallies can DS, the other two cost an extra CP to do so. And since we’re so CP hungry (many of ours cost 2CP), it might not be worth it....
On top of that, the Psilencer is cheaper. There's no reason to go Psycannon to be honest.
Draigo, two Chaplains, two Stratagems. How often are you going to have all these buffs rolling? Once or twice per game? On a single unit?
Realistically you're never going to deal TWENTY THREE WOUNDS.
Actually, I think it’s quite likely that this specific combo will occur frequently. Draigo will definitely be next to my Palabomb all the time—because why wouldn’t I be buffing my largest unit? My CP are for this combo, considering how deadly the investment becomes. The weak link is the two 3+ litanies. So I can realistically expect only one of them. But other than that, there’s no reason a competent player shouldn’t position his units to make this work.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/24 19:27:21
"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21
2020/01/24 19:39:14
Subject: Re:8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
Elric Greywolf wrote: I just did a spreadsheet with a variety of options.
Basic no buffs (beyond a reroll aura), 4 psilencers vs 4 psycannons.
They are nearly identical. Volume of fire lets psilencers kill a single more Intercessor, and do a single more wound to vehicles due to Dd3.
Full rerolls, Convergence, Guidance Litany, Focus Litany, Beast strat
Psilencers start to shine. Equal number of GEQ and Intercessors killed. More wounds on T5 and on vehicles. 3.5 more wounds on Knight, with a total of 17.778 for psilencers vs 14.222 for psycannons.
Add on Psychic Onslaught, and the psilencer pulls even further ahead (because of the AP bonus), doing TWENTY THREE WOUNDS to Knights, compared to the psycannons’ 16.8.
There’s a weird issue where the guns are more points efficient on PAGK, due to decreased cost. However, if you’re already taking a unit of Pallies, it’s probably better to give them the heavies instead of buying a whole unit of Purgators or Purifiers. Also, Pallies can DS, the other two cost an extra CP to do so. And since we’re so CP hungry (many of ours cost 2CP), it might not be worth it....
On top of that, the Psilencer is cheaper. There's no reason to go Psycannon to be honest.
Draigo, two Chaplains, two Stratagems. How often are you going to have all these buffs rolling? Once or twice per game? On a single unit?
Realistically you're never going to deal TWENTY THREE WOUNDS.
Actually, I think it’s quite likely that this specific combo will occur frequently. Draigo will definitely be next to my Palabomb all the time—because why wouldn’t I be buffing my largest unit? My CP are for this combo, considering how deadly the investment becomes. The weak link is the two 3+ litanies. So I can realistically expect only one of them. But other than that, there’s no reason a competent player shouldn’t position his units to make this work.
/nod
Reddit also gave me the chance to gain some humility, you're right on all points, i don't know why i was arguing with the guy who "wrote the book".
2020/01/24 19:46:53
Subject: Re:8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
Elric Greywolf wrote: I just did a spreadsheet with a variety of options.
Basic no buffs (beyond a reroll aura), 4 psilencers vs 4 psycannons.
They are nearly identical. Volume of fire lets psilencers kill a single more Intercessor, and do a single more wound to vehicles due to Dd3.
Full rerolls, Convergence, Guidance Litany, Focus Litany, Beast strat
Psilencers start to shine. Equal number of GEQ and Intercessors killed. More wounds on T5 and on vehicles. 3.5 more wounds on Knight, with a total of 17.778 for psilencers vs 14.222 for psycannons.
Add on Psychic Onslaught, and the psilencer pulls even further ahead (because of the AP bonus), doing TWENTY THREE WOUNDS to Knights, compared to the psycannons’ 16.8.
There’s a weird issue where the guns are more points efficient on PAGK, due to decreased cost. However, if you’re already taking a unit of Pallies, it’s probably better to give them the heavies instead of buying a whole unit of Purgators or Purifiers. Also, Pallies can DS, the other two cost an extra CP to do so. And since we’re so CP hungry (many of ours cost 2CP), it might not be worth it....
On top of that, the Psilencer is cheaper. There's no reason to go Psycannon to be honest.
Draigo, two Chaplains, two Stratagems. How often are you going to have all these buffs rolling? Once or twice per game? On a single unit?
Realistically you're never going to deal TWENTY THREE WOUNDS.
I'm sorry but what a the point of this post? Is this somehow a defense for Psycannons?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2020/01/24 20:18:24
Subject: 8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
Psycannons are the clear superior option between psilencer and psycannon with the new tides.
#1 They are better than psilencers against things storm bolters are bad against.
#2 They average more damage vs almost everything.
There is a case to be made that a unit of psilencer purgations is good to have because it is better against some things. Psycannon is the way to go now though.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2020/01/24 20:19:56
Subject: 8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
Xenomancers wrote: Psycannons are the clear superior option between psilencer and psycannon with the new tides.
#1 They are better than psilencers against things storm bolters are bad against.
#2 They average more damage vs almost everything.
There is a case to be made that a unit of psilencer purgations is good to have because it is better against some things. Psycannon is the way to go now though.
Ya i thought this as well, you'd think that would be the case but it's not, stupid 8th wounding table.
2020/01/24 20:31:27
Subject: 8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
Xenomancers wrote: Psycannons are the clear superior option between psilencer and psycannon with the new tides.
#1 They are better than psilencers against things storm bolters are bad against.
#2 They average more damage vs almost everything.
There is a case to be made that a unit of psilencer purgations is good to have because it is better against some things. Psycannon is the way to go now though.
Ya i thought this as well, you'd think that would be the case but it's not, stupid 8th wounding table.
Nah I've done the math. The psilencer only out damages if it wounds on 4's vs targets which don't have a good save. Like a 5+.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/24 20:34:37
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2020/01/24 20:33:39
Subject: 8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
Xenomancers wrote: Psycannons are the clear superior option between psilencer and psycannon with the new tides.
#1 They are better than psilencers against things storm bolters are bad against.
#2 They average more damage vs almost everything.
There is a case to be made that a unit of psilencer purgations is good to have because it is better against some things. Psycannon is the way to go now though.
Except you're staying in a bad Tide and the Psilencer is still mathematically better (and cheaper). The math has been done already.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2020/01/24 20:40:22
Subject: 8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
Xenomancers wrote: Psycannons are the clear superior option between psilencer and psycannon with the new tides.
#1 They are better than psilencers against things storm bolters are bad against.
#2 They average more damage vs almost everything.
There is a case to be made that a unit of psilencer purgations is good to have because it is better against some things. Psycannon is the way to go now though.
Except you're staying in a bad Tide and the Psilencer is still mathematically better (and cheaper). The math has been done already.
It's not a bad tide. It's great. And it's not mathmatically better.
Psycannon avges 2.2 damage to meq Where Psi averages 2.0
It's even worse vs t7 3+ vehicles.
Psy 1.8
vs
Psi 1.3
Its even worse vs t8 3+ vehicals
Psy 1.3
vs
Psi .7
Since everything in your army has a storm bolter you don't need the psilencers. Psilencers were just the go to choice before because the psi-cannon was so bad. The cost between the two weapons is pretty much nothing comapred to how much better the psy is.
Also - with having 2 tides to chose from per turn...the only turn you wont want to use the shooty tide is probably turn 1 if you go second because you are starting in the defensive tide. After that it is all offense.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2020/01/24 20:48:09
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2020/01/24 20:41:26
Subject: 8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
Xenomancers wrote: Psycannons are the clear superior option between psilencer and psycannon with the new tides.
#1 They are better than psilencers against things storm bolters are bad against.
#2 They average more damage vs almost everything.
There is a case to be made that a unit of psilencer purgations is good to have because it is better against some things. Psycannon is the way to go now though.
Except you're staying in a bad Tide and the Psilencer is still mathematically better (and cheaper). The math has been done already.
It's not a bad tide. It's great. And it's not mathmatically better.
Psycannon avges 2.2 damage to meq Where Psi averages 2.0
It's even worse vs t7 3+ vehicles.
Psy 1.8
vs
Psi 1.3
Its even worse vs t8 3+ vehicals
Psy 1.3
vs
Psi .7
Since everything in your army has a storm bolter you don't need the psilencers. Psilencers were just the go to choice before because the psi-cannon was so bad. The cost between the two weapons is pretty much nothing comapred to how much better the psy is.
Also - with having 2 tides to chose from per turn...the only turn you wont want to use the shooty tide is probably turn 1 if you go second because you are starting in the defensive tide. After that it is all offense.
What do you mean the cost between the two is nothing? You get almost two Psilencers for a Psycannon!
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2020/01/25 07:41:54
Subject: 8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
I'm getting rash if I think about an army containing these HQs.
Recently, my army was led by GKND's and Techmarines for obvious reasons.
Not sure if my army tactics of an ''alpha strike'' in round 2 can be improved:
Dreads, Techmarines, Paladins and Interceptors start at the board.
GKSS's and GKND's deep strike in round 2, simultaneously Paladins use GoI and Interceptors shunt.
The whole army in the enemy's face in round 2.
Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
Edict Imperator is a really versatile spell, letting you fall back and shoot or pop out, shoot then scoot away.
You definitely want to take Warp Shaping on more than one guy, it’s way too important to leave up to a single character.
Characters that know 2+ spells are going to be crucial to keep the psyker buffs flowing, Grandmaster Voldus is going in all my lists from now on.
Sanctic Discipline powers being relegated to regular squads makes divvying up buffs a lot more important. You can’t mix and match on characters without the single warlord trait, so it’s up to the regular guys to handle their own buffs.
Slow and steady with the CP. There’s some deadly combos you can do but it means not blowing the whole load turns 1-2.
Overall it felt really powerful, though I’m definitely making some tokens to keep track of all the new buffs.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/26 04:12:29
2020/01/26 17:05:20
Subject: 8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
Yesterdays game,
managed to get my librarian close to opponent
did all the strat and other stuff shenanigans
inner fire
3d6 pick high 2, +3 for other stuff
managed to get 6,6,1, so 6+6+3 = 15
rolled the dice
did 2 mortal wounds to myself and did 12 mortal wounds to opponent's terminator squad
it was awsome
-the strat that adds 6" to range is pretty much mandatory to get this power off, due to the 1" range, so always plan on that
-if the dice gods hate you, then this power can definatly kill you, be sure to make proper sacrifices to the dice gods befor every game
2020/01/26 19:23:49
Subject: Re:8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
2 games for me yesterday, Chaos Knights for my league and then low key against Tau (competitive list though). Tabled the knights turn 3, 2D smite is brutal, though one did explode and kill about 20 marines (yikes!). Against Tau I spent the entire game hiding and in the “cover” tide, basically killed only drones that whole game but owned the board and won.
Yeah, GK are good now.
Favorite moment was banner of refining flame with inner fire dropping in with dynamic insertion, mental focus, and psychic adept doing 11 mortal wounds to a knight
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/26 19:27:55
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
2020/01/26 23:46:03
Subject: 8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
Here's a question for you Lords Empyrial. The protection that characters under 9 wounds get is specified to be during the shooting phase. Shooting that occurs outside that phase like Auspex Scan and Edict Imperator should ignore that and allow you to snipe characters, right?
2020/01/27 00:06:35
Subject: Re:8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
bmsattler wrote: Here's a question for you Lords Empyrial. The protection that characters under 9 wounds get is specified to be during the shooting phase. Shooting that occurs outside that phase like Auspex Scan and Edict Imperator should ignore that and allow you to snipe characters, right?
I am pretty sure this was answered in an faq. I thought the answer was it follows the same rules as the shooting phase so you can't target a chr if there is something closer.
2020/01/27 04:46:00
Subject: Re:8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
greyknight12 wrote: 2 games for me yesterday, Chaos Knights for my league and then low key against Tau (competitive list though). Tabled the knights turn 3, 2D smite is brutal, though one did explode and kill about 20 marines (yikes!). Against Tau I spent the entire game hiding and in the “cover” tide, basically killed only drones that whole game but owned the board and won.
Yeah, GK are good now.
Favorite moment was banner of refining flame with inner fire dropping in with dynamic insertion, mental focus, and psychic adept doing 11 mortal wounds to a knight
You can’t use Dynamic Insertion + Inner Fire with the Banner of Refining Flame. The Banner removes the models Rites of Banishment ability which means it can’t be targeted by the Powerful Adept Stratagem for +6” range.
I'm the owner of The WAAAGH Studios, a commission painting service. If you have any commission work you'd like doing don't hesitate to message me or check out
Xenomancers wrote: Psycannons are the clear superior option between psilencer and psycannon with the new tides.
#1 They are better than psilencers against things storm bolters are bad against.
#2 They average more damage vs almost everything.
There is a case to be made that a unit of psilencer purgations is good to have because it is better against some things. Psycannon is the way to go now though.
Except you're staying in a bad Tide and the Psilencer is still mathematically better (and cheaper). The math has been done already.
It's not a bad tide. It's great. And it's not mathmatically better.
Psycannon avges 2.2 damage to meq Where Psi averages 2.0
It's even worse vs t7 3+ vehicles.
Psy 1.8
vs
Psi 1.3
Its even worse vs t8 3+ vehicals
Psy 1.3
vs
Psi .7
Since everything in your army has a storm bolter you don't need the psilencers. Psilencers were just the go to choice before because the psi-cannon was so bad. The cost between the two weapons is pretty much nothing comapred to how much better the psy is.
Also - with having 2 tides to chose from per turn...the only turn you wont want to use the shooty tide is probably turn 1 if you go second because you are starting in the defensive tide. After that it is all offense.
What do you mean the cost between the two is nothing? You get almost two Psilencers for a Psycannon!
A difference of 3 points. So if you take 10 of them...you save 30 points over Psycannons. That is not a big difference. In a GK army that is not even 2 models.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2020/01/27 16:31:15
Subject: 8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
Xenomancers wrote: Psycannons are the clear superior option between psilencer and psycannon with the new tides.
#1 They are better than psilencers against things storm bolters are bad against.
#2 They average more damage vs almost everything.
There is a case to be made that a unit of psilencer purgations is good to have because it is better against some things. Psycannon is the way to go now though.
Except you're staying in a bad Tide and the Psilencer is still mathematically better (and cheaper). The math has been done already.
It's not a bad tide. It's great. And it's not mathmatically better.
Psycannon avges 2.2 damage to meq Where Psi averages 2.0
It's even worse vs t7 3+ vehicles.
Psy 1.8
vs
Psi 1.3
Its even worse vs t8 3+ vehicals
Psy 1.3
vs
Psi .7
Since everything in your army has a storm bolter you don't need the psilencers. Psilencers were just the go to choice before because the psi-cannon was so bad. The cost between the two weapons is pretty much nothing comapred to how much better the psy is.
Also - with having 2 tides to chose from per turn...the only turn you wont want to use the shooty tide is probably turn 1 if you go second because you are starting in the defensive tide. After that it is all offense.
What do you mean the cost between the two is nothing? You get almost two Psilencers for a Psycannon!
A difference of 3 points. So if you take 10 of them...you save 30 points over Psycannons. That is not a big difference. In a GK army that is not even 2 models.
That's three Psycannons vs five Psilencers. Just admit you're wrong please.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2020/01/27 18:18:54
Subject: 8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
We're not playing Imperial Guard here, where the most points efficient damage reigns supreme because we can take as much of it as we want and the efficiency in quantity will win out.
A Grey Knight army will only have so many slots for psycannons or psilencers and with such a small absolute difference in point costs which is the better weapon, not better weapon per point cost, is absolutely a valid concern.
How many of these weapons are you realistically taking, how many points will you save and what will you spend those points on?
2020/01/27 19:03:54
Subject: 8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)
If you're shooting at the second or third heavy mech / tank / artillery of you opponent's army, and you have less than half / none of your CP left...I'd rather have a handful of psycannons shooting at S8 AP-1 2 damage...than some more psilencers shooting at S5 AP0 d3+1 damage.
^ That makes sense.
If you need to shoot fodder....that's what the storm bolters are for...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/28 09:53:27
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