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Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





 RaptorusRex wrote:
Yeah, the axe-guns seem more like a Chaos Dwarf thing. That's basically what Firepikes are, right?

It might be just reference to real Eastern European unit type that was armed with both:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streltsy
   
Made in gb
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Watch Fortress Excalibris

Personally, I'm a fan of Kislev's constitutional right to keep armed bears.

I just think GW missed a trick calling the Kislevite god Ursun rather than Wojtek.

When you're struck by an eel, whose sharp teeth you can feel... that's a moray!

When your food, if you please, has white sauce with some cheese... that's a Mornay!

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 Duskweaver wrote:
Personally, I'm a fan of Kislev's constitutional right to keep armed bears.


That's worth an exalt.
   
Made in rs
Been Around the Block





 Just Tony wrote:
 Dreamchild wrote:
Cronch wrote:
@Zenithfleet: I think the word just evolved to mean low/high magic over time.
Anyway, what some empire-focused people miss out on is that the empire wasn't the norm in the old world. It was specifically the one place in the world that had magic controlled, technology replacing it slowly, and people living muddy, boring lives barring occasional beastman raid or chaos invasion. Even next town over in Bretonnia you had flying horses, immortal champions of the realm and prayers actually stopping cannon-balls from pulverizing knights. Go a bit further and you have an empire of undead ruled over by mummies. A bit further and you have the gleaming spires of ulthuan where dragons still roam (if in limited numbers!) and magic is still used commonly. Empire was the exception, not the norm.


Sure, there's all kinds of rainbow unicorn things in Bretonnia, but the fact that they're exclusively reserved for the rich i.e. nobility (including sainthood) makes it grimdark. Also, this is what makes it relatable and interesting, IMHO.

The most interaction an average Bretonnian would have with a Pegasus is clearing the dung off their hooves. As a highly polarized feudal sistem, Bretonnian regular joes have it much worse than in the Empire.

That said, I'd like to throw in a few thoughts on the general high-low discussion that's been going on. A lot of people tend to represent "low fantasy" as mundane miseryporn as here it is probably the most evident, but generally what I personally find lacking in what people generally agree to be "high" fantasy and abound in what we consider "low" fantasy is relatable and/or instinctively understandable cultural and sociological factors, specifics and problems, history and general foreign politics motivators.

I've already mentioned the Bretonnia thing. Empire of mummies? Great, I'm all for it actually, but they need to have an ostensible culture and raison-d'-etre (a society obsessed with eternal life and personality cults). Immortal, perfect high elves riding dragons? Amazing, but let them be crippled by their inner political backstabbing and superiority complex. Empire has it better than most humans in the world? Great, but it is also corrupt, colonizing, xenophobic and carelessly opportunistic on the whole.


You just reminded me of how much I fething hate the Bretonnian tonal shift from 5th to 6th Edition...


I get what you mean, but honestly, those elements were never NOT there - you don't really get anything else with a polarized feudal society - they just weren't being shown directly.

And even during the post-6th paradigm shift, you could mostly grasp these from select art pieces and WFRP supplements.

Hell, these elements technically existed outside of what's shown even in the real life high medieval chansons de geste Brets were inspired by - or at least in cultures who wrote themselves into said pieces of literature.


This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/05/16 23:32:05


 
   
Made in us
Armored Iron Breaker





 Irbis wrote:
 RaptorusRex wrote:
Yeah, the axe-guns seem more like a Chaos Dwarf thing. That's basically what Firepikes are, right?

It might be just reference to real Eastern European unit type that was armed with both:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streltsy


Interesting. It says that they're a single regiment, though. So a Regiment of Renown?


Courage and occasionally honor.
 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

Yeah, Streltsi were a kislevite unit that was basically just Streltsy. The change they have done is that instead of having bardiche+rifle they have an axe-rifle. It doesn't look as good in my opinion but is not horrible.

I love my chaosdwarven firepikes but the new Streltsi have it backwards, instead of a rifle with an axe bayonet the rifle is in the back end of the axe.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
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West Lafayette, IN

 Dreamchild wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
 Dreamchild wrote:
Cronch wrote:
@Zenithfleet: I think the word just evolved to mean low/high magic over time.
Anyway, what some empire-focused people miss out on is that the empire wasn't the norm in the old world. It was specifically the one place in the world that had magic controlled, technology replacing it slowly, and people living muddy, boring lives barring occasional beastman raid or chaos invasion. Even next town over in Bretonnia you had flying horses, immortal champions of the realm and prayers actually stopping cannon-balls from pulverizing knights. Go a bit further and you have an empire of undead ruled over by mummies. A bit further and you have the gleaming spires of ulthuan where dragons still roam (if in limited numbers!) and magic is still used commonly. Empire was the exception, not the norm.


Sure, there's all kinds of rainbow unicorn things in Bretonnia, but the fact that they're exclusively reserved for the rich i.e. nobility (including sainthood) makes it grimdark. Also, this is what makes it relatable and interesting, IMHO.

The most interaction an average Bretonnian would have with a Pegasus is clearing the dung off their hooves. As a highly polarized feudal sistem, Bretonnian regular joes have it much worse than in the Empire.

That said, I'd like to throw in a few thoughts on the general high-low discussion that's been going on. A lot of people tend to represent "low fantasy" as mundane miseryporn as here it is probably the most evident, but generally what I personally find lacking in what people generally agree to be "high" fantasy and abound in what we consider "low" fantasy is relatable and/or instinctively understandable cultural and sociological factors, specifics and problems, history and general foreign politics motivators.

I've already mentioned the Bretonnia thing. Empire of mummies? Great, I'm all for it actually, but they need to have an ostensible culture and raison-d'-etre (a society obsessed with eternal life and personality cults). Immortal, perfect high elves riding dragons? Amazing, but let them be crippled by their inner political backstabbing and superiority complex. Empire has it better than most humans in the world? Great, but it is also corrupt, colonizing, xenophobic and carelessly opportunistic on the whole.


You just reminded me of how much I fething hate the Bretonnian tonal shift from 5th to 6th Edition...


I get what you mean, but honestly, those elements were never NOT there - you don't really get anything else with a polarized feudal society - they just weren't being shown directly.

And even during the post-6th paradigm shift, you could mostly grasp these from select art pieces and WFRP supplements.

Hell, these elements technically existed outside of what's shown even in the real life high medieval chansons de geste Brets were inspired by - or at least in cultures who wrote themselves into said pieces of literature.




I'm talking more the absolute Flanderized levels of it. Commoners vs. royalty is one thing, but the absolute destitution shown in the 6th Ed. book runs contrary to the ideals that the Code of Chivalry expouses.

What it all comes down to is some arm-cutting emo edgelord at GW decided that there can never ever ever be a completely "good" force. It's why they threw the whole mind control thing onto the Tau at roughly the same time.

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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
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 Dryaktylus wrote:
Well, I have the Citadel Journal 15 right in my hands now. Let's see... Every character can ride a bear. The Sons of Ursa, a cavalry unit, do it anyway. Then there're the Sibyrian beast tamers. With wolves. Or... bears. I think a cannon drawn by bears and an elemental in the shape of a bear are.... bearable.

I mean... that is true, but in the case of all characters, it's also a misrepresentation. All characters can ride a warhorse or a monster, and one of the monsters happens to be a great bear, but they can as easily all be riding great dragons, or manticores or pegasii, so as far as representation or flanderization goes, well...

As to the rest, that is also true, two units out of 16 on the army list can use bears in some capacity. But it is as much true that 7 units out of those same 16 can ride warhorses, and one of those is a knightly order... the brotherhood of the bear.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/17 06:22:43


 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





 Albertorius wrote:

I mean... that is true, but in the case of all characters, it's also a misrepresentation. All characters can ride a warhorse or a monster, and one of the monsters happens to be a great bear, but they can as easily all be riding great dragons, or manticores or pegasii, so as far as representation or flanderization goes, well...

As to the rest, that is also true, two units out of 16 on the army list can use bears in some capacity. But it is as much true that 7 units out of those same 16 can ride warhorses, and one of those is a knightly order... the brotherhood of the bear.


The video showed horses are litterally still in. So why keep complaining about more bears for new units that are clearly quite special in themselves ? (Elemental Bear is, well, elemental and thus certainly involved with some kind of magic ritual, it just has the shape of a bear and is more a question of faith and belief - and the canon is just a piece of artillery, the bears are used to pull it. Since they're stronger than horses, it's not especially dumb to use them instead of horses, especially because Kislev can clearly tame bears for war).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/17 06:37:28


 
   
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Sarouan wrote:
 Albertorius wrote:

I mean... that is true, but in the case of all characters, it's also a misrepresentation. All characters can ride a warhorse or a monster, and one of the monsters happens to be a great bear, but they can as easily all be riding great dragons, or manticores or pegasii, so as far as representation or flanderization goes, well...

As to the rest, that is also true, two units out of 16 on the army list can use bears in some capacity. But it is as much true that 7 units out of those same 16 can ride warhorses, and one of those is a knightly order... the brotherhood of the bear.


The video showed horses are litterally still in. So why keep complaining about more bears for new units that are clearly quite special in themselves ? (Elemental Bear is, well, elemental and thus certainly involved with some kind of magic ritual, it just has the shape of a bear and is more a question of faith and belief - and the canon is just a piece of artillery, the bears are used to pull it. Since they're stronger than horses, it's not especially dumb to use them instead of horses, especially because Kislev can clearly tame bears for war).

1) Because I wanted to comment.
2) Because I'm asleep while most posters are awake, on account on being on the other side of the planet.
3) Not complaining. Explaining.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/17 06:47:44


 
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Albertorius wrote:
Sarouan wrote:
 Albertorius wrote:

I mean... that is true, but in the case of all characters, it's also a misrepresentation. All characters can ride a warhorse or a monster, and one of the monsters happens to be a great bear, but they can as easily all be riding great dragons, or manticores or pegasii, so as far as representation or flanderization goes, well...

As to the rest, that is also true, two units out of 16 on the army list can use bears in some capacity. But it is as much true that 7 units out of those same 16 can ride warhorses, and one of those is a knightly order... the brotherhood of the bear.


The video showed horses are litterally still in. So why keep complaining about more bears for new units that are clearly quite special in themselves ? (Elemental Bear is, well, elemental and thus certainly involved with some kind of magic ritual, it just has the shape of a bear and is more a question of faith and belief - and the canon is just a piece of artillery, the bears are used to pull it. Since they're stronger than horses, it's not especially dumb to use them instead of horses, especially because Kislev can clearly tame bears for war).

1) Because I wanted to comment.
2) Because I'm asleep while most posters are awake, on account on being on the other side of the planet.
3) Not complaining. Explaining.


Oh you're totally complaining - more specifically, trying to find a counter-argument to the facts presented in the Citadel Journal 15 so that you can keep complaining about more bears in new Kislev units. Talking about "misrepresentation" from a Total War gameplay video with a set army is plain stupid, 'cause the purpose of the video is to show the new units and have a general feeling on how the game looks and plays for the press.

It's not representative of the proportion of war bears / special units in the actual Kislevite army. It was never meant to be. Besides, we don't even know what are the mounts available for characters as they level up, if they use the same system than TW2 for that. Horses may very well still be available for most heroes anyway.

So your numbers here are worth nothing, because you're using as basis a video that was never meant to show the lore / proportion of how special the bears are in the army. It's not a Warhammer Fantasy Battle army book. For now, we still have the Old World project to show how they actually can be played / taken in a miniature wargame.

For Ursa's sake, the canon is clearly a unique unit with its own name - it's a Kislev Regiment of Renown. We have no proof all Kislevite canons are automatically pulled by bears and moved on a carpet of magical ice.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/05/17 07:39:45


 
   
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Yeah, ok, whatever. Bye.
   
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Scotland, but nowhere near my rulebook

Bretonnia, 3rd edition rulebook, 1991:

"Bretonnia was founded 1500 years ago, when Gilles Le Breton initiated the series of dynastic conquests that led to the unification of the many small feudal states lying west of the Grey Mountains and north of the river Brienne. At htat time Bretonnia was a troublesome backwater compared to The Empire. Soon, however, the Bretonnian Kings came to rival the power of the Emperor, and her cities became the model for modernity and fashion.

Since the accession of the current King's grandfather, Charles I (Charles L'enorm or Charles the Enormous), the Bretonnian Kingdom has degenerated considerably. The once proud cities and prosperous ports have fallen into ruin, a national apathy has set in that has given rise to widespread corruption, inefficiency and decay. The aristocracy looks to its own pleasures while the unruly mob starves amidst the worst squalor in the Old World.

The current King, Charles III (Charles Tete d'Or) is the least caring of all. His great palace of Oisillon is a glittering monument to decadence, where be-wigged nobles prance and chatter, where banquets and parties continue all through the night, and where the King hears only the council of sycophants and favourites. Aristocrats and King alike seem myopically ignorant of the true state of the realm, whilst those few genuinely caring nobles look to the defence of their own estates, shunning the madness that has gripped the court"

Now, a LOT of that has been retconned over the years. But right from early on, it's been clear that there are times when being a Bretonnian peasant is absolutely awful, but that this is something that isn't a permanent state of affairs. So during TOW, Brettonia might be at a high point before the decline, while the rise of Louen Leoncoeur may have been the start of another upswing. If, y'know, the world hadn't ended.

Both types of Brettonia are true, just wait a couple of centuries.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut






As someone who sees 6th ed background as the best, I think that:
1) Bear Cavalry are okay providing they are roughly equivalent to demigryphs, being only a rare choice and for characters.
2) Bear artillery... not a fan but if is it the equivalent of a steam tank, being very rare and there is more conventional artillery, then seems acceptable.
3) Bear spirit thing is crossing a line. Large monsters are fine (providing they are rare) but monstrous apparitions are walking gork orc rock thing kind of fantasy which does not interest me.

 Dreamchild wrote:
That said, I'd like to throw in a few thoughts on the general high-low discussion that's been going on. A lot of people tend to represent "low fantasy" as gratuitousmiseryporn as here it is probably the most evident (reasonably enough, nobody's a fan of that), but I'd argue that social realism (or coming close to it) is where it's at.
Completely agree here. What appealed to me was that human factions are largely inspired by historical realism except for the very elite of the society and the enemies they fight. High fantasy just does not have sufficient historical roots to interest me.

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:
In my day, you didn't recognize the greatest heroes of humanity because they had to ride the biggest creatures or be massive in size themselves. No, they had the most magnificent facial hair! If it was good enough for Kurt Helborg and Ludwig Schwarzhelm, it should be good enough for anyone!
Signatured for truth.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/17 08:45:56


 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:
In my day, you didn't recognize the greatest heroes of humanity because they had to ride the biggest creatures or be massive in size themselves. No, they had the most magnificent facial hair! If it was good enough for Kurt Helborg and Ludwig Schwarzhelm, it should be good enough for anyone!
 
   
Made in us
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OKC, OK USA

 Just Tony wrote:


I'm talking more the absolute Flanderized levels of it. Commoners vs. royalty is one thing, but the absolute destitution shown in the 6th Ed. book runs contrary to the ideals that the Code of Chivalry expouses.


I really liked that about the 6th ed book because of the fact it resembled the utter hypocrisy that was Chivalric Code, both real life and fantasy.They're ideals that literally no human can actually follow because they're human. Hell, Bretonnia is basically Arthurian fan fiction and all but one of the Knights of the Round Table failed to live up to the code fully in the end.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/17 11:53:47


You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
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Made in pl
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 Graphite wrote:
The current King, Charles III (Charles Tete d'Or) is the least caring of all. His great palace of Oisillon is a glittering monument to decadence, where be-wigged nobles prance and chatter, where banquets and parties continue all through the night, and where the King hears only the council of sycophants and favourites.

Did someone at GW ate memo Bretonnia was supposed to be a medieval state, not baroque one?
   
Made in gb
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Scotland, but nowhere near my rulebook

At the point that was written, Bretonnia wasn't really supposed to be any kind of state other then "the one next to the Empire, a little bit French". But certainly from some of the WFRP stuff about at the time, there was art of Bretonnian nobles who were obviously only a few decades away from the guillotine. It was before all of the Knights of the Round Table stuff.
   
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IDK, later Bretonnian stuff went from Grim Dark to Grim Stupid with that 6E book.

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 Irbis wrote:
 Graphite wrote:
The current King, Charles III (Charles Tete d'Or) is the least caring of all. His great palace of Oisillon is a glittering monument to decadence, where be-wigged nobles prance and chatter, where banquets and parties continue all through the night, and where the King hears only the council of sycophants and favourites.

Did someone at GW ate memo Bretonnia was supposed to be a medieval state, not baroque one?

It's supposed to be a fantasy state.
   
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Austria

 Irbis wrote:
 Graphite wrote:
The current King, Charles III (Charles Tete d'Or) is the least caring of all. His great palace of Oisillon is a glittering monument to decadence, where be-wigged nobles prance and chatter, where banquets and parties continue all through the night, and where the King hears only the council of sycophants and favourites.

Did someone at GW ate memo Bretonnia was supposed to be a medieval state, not baroque one?


this came much later, in the beginning, Bretonia was supposed to be like this




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Longtime Dakkanaut





*nostalgic sigh*

Ah, I remember those old bretonnian archers...they were nothing really special, but they were the first I ever painted...

And yes, they weren't as filthy as they became much later in their last plastic incarnation.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/17 16:04:52


 
   
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My happy place.

oh hey, foot knights. Another unit type they could bring to cities to make me happy.

I play: AOS Death, AOS Cities of Sigmar, 40K imperial soup.

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Longtime Dakkanaut






Sarouan wrote:
And yes, they weren't as filthy as they became much later in their last plastic incarnation.


Because they were based (visually at least) on English archers circa Hundred Years War - highly trained, generally well paid professionals.

The more French Bretonnia became, the more it resembled a very dark Monty Python sketch.

Trust the Brits to take the mick out of he French.

And boy, oh boy, is that image a nostalgia blast.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/17 16:39:11


 
   
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 kodos wrote:
 Irbis wrote:
 Graphite wrote:
The current King, Charles III (Charles Tete d'Or) is the least caring of all. His great palace of Oisillon is a glittering monument to decadence, where be-wigged nobles prance and chatter, where banquets and parties continue all through the night, and where the King hears only the council of sycophants and favourites.

Did someone at GW ate memo Bretonnia was supposed to be a medieval state, not baroque one?


this came much later, in the beginning, Bretonia was supposed to be like this

Spoiler:




What era was this? I don't recognise the models.

I started right at the end of 4th and beginning of 5th edition, that was when Brets still had a "good" vibe to them, not the dirty downtrodden peasants of 6th edition.

I liked the 5th edition Brets better, especially the metals were a lot nicer looking than the plastics that came in 6th, some really nice work from the Perry twins, back when they were "bowmen" rather than "peasant bowmen".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/17 16:49:01


 
   
Made in gb
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Scotland, but nowhere near my rulebook

I'm going to guess that photo comes from 3rd (by the Fanatic bases and models)

What I posted before was the entire background section on Bretonnia in 3rd edition rulebook - I got the date wrong, it originally came out in 1987. (My copy must be a later printing). That's it. Everything.

Warhammer Armies came out in 1988, and leaned a bit more into the "Knights" look. Unfortunately I don't have that book, but it certainly that looks like the list the army photographed came from. As you can see, they had crossbows, cannons, well armoured archers. There's a peasant rabble at the back, but that's to add flavour to a fairly standard renaissance army rather than WE ARE KNIGHTS AND PEASANTS AND NOTHING ELSE.

So, yes, Bretonnia was a bit of a hodge-podge of time periods from the very beginning, but so was everything else. But Peasant Life Is Rubbish was always there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and if you like Perry Bretonnians you can just... go to the Perry twins store. They're still cranking them out as historicals. https://www.perry-miniatures.com/product/ao-70-agincourt-mounted-knights-1415/

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/17 16:59:01


 
   
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New Jersey, State of Perfection

 Graphite wrote:
Bretonnia, 3rd edition rulebook, 1991:

"Bretonnia was founded 1500 years ago, when Gilles Le Breton initiated the series of dynastic conquests that led to the unification of the many small feudal states lying west of the Grey Mountains and north of the river Brienne. At htat time Bretonnia was a troublesome backwater compared to The Empire. Soon, however, the Bretonnian Kings came to rival the power of the Emperor, and her cities became the model for modernity and fashion.

Since the accession of the current King's grandfather, Charles I (Charles L'enorm or Charles the Enormous), the Bretonnian Kingdom has degenerated considerably. The once proud cities and prosperous ports have fallen into ruin, a national apathy has set in that has given rise to widespread corruption, inefficiency and decay. The aristocracy looks to its own pleasures while the unruly mob starves amidst the worst squalor in the Old World.

The current King, Charles III (Charles Tete d'Or) is the least caring of all. His great palace of Oisillon is a glittering monument to decadence, where be-wigged nobles prance and chatter, where banquets and parties continue all through the night, and where the King hears only the council of sycophants and favourites. Aristocrats and King alike seem myopically ignorant of the true state of the realm, whilst those few genuinely caring nobles look to the defence of their own estates, shunning the madness that has gripped the court"

Now, a LOT of that has been retconned over the years. But right from early on, it's been clear that there are times when being a Bretonnian peasant is absolutely awful, but that this is something that isn't a permanent state of affairs. So during TOW, Brettonia might be at a high point before the decline, while the rise of Louen Leoncoeur may have been the start of another upswing. If, y'know, the world hadn't ended.

Both types of Brettonia are true, just wait a couple of centuries.


I miss the earlier portrayals of Bretonnia - in those days Bretonnia was less "feudal kingdom of medieval knights inspired by Arthurian myth" and more "late Age of Enlightenment steampunk on the eve of revolution".

Did someone at GW ate memo Bretonnia was supposed to be a medieval state, not baroque one?


Other way around, Bretonnia started out as being more baroque replete with powdered wigs, tricorne hats, and breeches - there was a great bit of fluff in one of the books about how Bretonnian nobles wore the powdered makeup and ornate clothing, etc. in order to hide the various (iirc chaos-induced) mutations and poxes which afflicted them and that the entirety of Bretonnian society had basically rotted from the inside-out and was ready to collase in a violent and spectacular fashion. It only turned into an Arthurian fairytale later. IIRC there were elements of the medieval knight stuff and medieval tech from the beginning but it was less pronounced and multi-layered, as the tech level of Bretonnia was comparable to the Empires and blackpowder weapons were present to some extent, etc.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/17 17:15:36


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Oslo Norway

Bretonnia makes more sense as a more baroque country than medieval anyway. The super medieval "no shooting" stuff was not interesting or realistic. They should have some gunpowder weaponry when they are surrounded by other cultures using firearms for hundreds of years.

   
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AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 kodos wrote:
 Irbis wrote:
 Graphite wrote:
The current King, Charles III (Charles Tete d'Or) is the least caring of all. His great palace of Oisillon is a glittering monument to decadence, where be-wigged nobles prance and chatter, where banquets and parties continue all through the night, and where the King hears only the council of sycophants and favourites.

Did someone at GW ate memo Bretonnia was supposed to be a medieval state, not baroque one?


this came much later, in the beginning, Bretonia was supposed to be like this

Spoiler:




What era was this? I don't recognise the models.

I started right at the end of 4th and beginning of 5th edition, that was when Brets still had a "good" vibe to them, not the dirty downtrodden peasants of 6th edition.

I liked the 5th edition Brets better, especially the metals were a lot nicer looking than the plastics that came in 6th, some really nice work from the Perry twins, back when they were "bowmen" rather than "peasant bowmen".



Late 3rd edition (UK White Dwarf 129 - 1990) :

http://oldhammer15.blogspot.com/2015/06/the-bretonnian-knights-part-1-and.html


   
Made in us
Armored Iron Breaker





 Illumini wrote:
Bretonnia makes more sense as a more baroque country than medieval anyway. The super medieval "no shooting" stuff was not interesting or realistic. They should have some gunpowder weaponry when they are surrounded by other cultures using firearms for hundreds of years.


Not really. The only reason the Empire has guns is because they learned how to make and use them from the Dwarfs. There aren't as many Dwarf Holds in the Grey Mountains, and those that are there were only there for only a relatively short time before the Bretonni came. There are also less expatriate Dwarfs, as there are in the Empire.

The chivalry thing is also a pretense for keeping weapons that can pierce the armor of Knights out of the hands of the peasantry. This ties into the general state of Bretonnian society; there is no real middle class and no real industry. Firearms are thus prohibitively expensive. Crossbows are similarly illegal. As such, the "infantry revolution" that occurred in historical feudal Europe never happened in Bretonnia.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/05/17 19:46:47


Courage and occasionally honor.
 
   
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Germany

 RaptorusRex wrote:
 Illumini wrote:
Bretonnia makes more sense as a more baroque country than medieval anyway. The super medieval "no shooting" stuff was not interesting or realistic. They should have some gunpowder weaponry when they are surrounded by other cultures using firearms for hundreds of years.


Not really. The only reason the Empire has guns is because they learned how to make and use them from the Dwarfs. There aren't as many Dwarf Holds in the Grey Mountains, and those that are there were only there for only a relatively short time before the Bretonni came. There are also less expatriate Dwarfs, as there are in the Empire.

The chivalry thing is also a pretense for keeping weapons that can pierce the armor of Knights out of the hands of the peasantry. This ties into the general state of Bretonnian society; there is no real middle class and no real industry. Firearms are thus prohibitively expensive. Crossbows are similarly illegal. As such, the "infantry revolution" that occurred in historical feudal Europe never happened in Bretonnia.


Which makes it a wonder why they'll still around

Games Workshop are not your friends. They are not a small dev trying their best. They are a multibillion dollar company making calculated decisions about how many costs they can cut, how lazy they can be about relases, and how much they can paywall. They will do it again. Stop giving them money for this. 
   
 
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