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Ok so after trying a bit of thread necromancy on accident I am making a new thread for this in hopes to get some people will share their opinions now that we actually have everything hashed out for the tourney.

So I guess I will start by posting the rules.

Armies for all current edition printed books are allowed.
No Special Characters allowed.
Any Army may ally with another.
You are required 1 character that is your armies General. In armies that have a compulsory choice you may ignore that if you want. Your general can’t fulfill another role like Army Standard Bearer unless normally allowed to do so in your army book. The only exception would be the Tomb kings Hierophant can be their army general or the Prince could be the Hierophant.
All other requirements and limitations can be found in the Army book.
These armies will be completely separate. Your General’s leadership bonus will only affect your troops. You each get 2 power and 2 dispel dice for showing up (Dwarves power dice cannot be used by his ally but can be used to dispel remains in play spells). Dispel dice will be a pool. Spells that target your units may target your allies, but they must match in type you cannot use invocation to raise Clanrats. Also you cannot use lore of life to heal a vampire. (Please try common sense.)

So my friend and I were talking about what to take and when we found out that we can cast spells on each other our lists kind of changed completely. What I was thinking is that my vampires have some pretty good spells mainly Vahls Danse. This spell is a pretty sweet spell but if combined with the TK's it can be devastating. So after some talking here is what we are thinking about running together.

My list of vampires and his list of tombkings

Vampire, Dark Acolyte(lvl 2 wizard), Avatar of death(Great Weapon, HVY armor), Hellsteed, helm of command.
Necromancer, Book of arkhan, Vanhel's Danse.
20 zombies.
20 zombies.
3 fell bats.
4 Blood knights.

Tombkings:

lich priest + COD
lich priest + steed
bow skeles x 10
5 light horseman
3 chariots
Bone giant

So the basic idea is that my vamp runs near his bone giant and when the bone giant gets into combat I cast vahls on it. The premise is this, Bone giant has 5 attacks base at wp 3 with my vampire around him and vahls cast that makes the bone giant always strike first with WS 6 and rerolling failed to-hit rolls and STR 6. That is one nasty combo considering the bone giant gets to make extra attacks for every wound it causes and the extra attacks can keep going as long as its wounding with them.

The rest of the idea was that my blood knights kind of run with his chariots or something and really take down some units of guys. The reason I choose Zombies over anything else is because they make a great tarpit unit and can be raised beyond starting size from the getgo and the bats can warmachine hunt.

I am a little sad that I am not really sure when I would be able to try these lists out with my friend because he lives 3 hours away from me and I don't know how much time I will have before the tourney which is January 2nd. There is a chance that over X-mas break I will be able to try out the lists with him a few times before the tourney though but prolly nothing for a few weeks.

Well that is the basics of the armies so any suggestions or critiques or whatever would really help and be appreciated.

I was thinking more along the lines of Incantation of Urgency + Van Hells Dance Macabre = extremely long charge range.

I think the Vampire Counts / Tomb Kings combination can be one of the strongest combinations out there, as the only thing Vampire Counts miss is shooting, which Tomb Kings are pretty good at.

About the lists, how is your Necromancer going to cast Van Hells Dance Macabre? He can only use 2 Power Dice to attempt to cast a spell and VHDM is a 7+ cast (so would be saver to cast on 3 Power Dice).

Zombies are much more cost effective to just raise from the ground. I would probably take units of Ghouls for Core choices (as their Poisoned Attacks also gives them a chance against Monsters, which will be a problem to deal with in these smaller games).

Blood Knights cost too much points for such a small game and are way too easy to redirect, especially without a unit of Dire Wolves to screen their charges. I suppose you could use the Tomb Kings player his Light Horsemen for this, but the Blood Knights will still cost too much for a game this size. Black Knights will probably break most of the opponent's units on the charge as well and they don't suffer from the Frenzy problems.

I think the Liche Priest with the Cloak of the Dunes should also have the Hieratic Jar (very useful item). The other Liche Priest could take a Dispel Scroll for some insurance against spells that you know will be trouble if you botch the Dispel roll.

Skeleton Warriors with Bows (minimum sized units) are always good. They are the standard Core for Tomb Kings (especially when there is no Tomb King in play to make Chariots Core).

Light Horsemen are overpriced. I would probably replace them by another unit of Skeleton Warriors with Bows.

Chariots are a decent unit, as are Tomb Guard and Tomb Scorpions for Special choices.

I'd probably take a Screaming Skull Catapult as a Rare choice. You need something to deal with Monsters like War Hydra's, Hell Pit Abominations and Steam Tanks. In my opinion, the Catapult is a very efficient way to bring this. It will also give you something that can ignore armour saves for when you are facing heavy cavalry.

ok well look at it this way for the ghouls. I take 2 units of 10 ghouls for the same price as 20 zombies. That and the fact that with this I cant actually raise the ghouls above starting, which is usually what people do they take the power on the vampire that gives them the ability to raise ghouls above starting. I cant get the points to get that ability and 2 10 man squads of ghouls is pretty small cannon fodder. The Zombies are easier to handle and I can raise allot more of them. If I take ghouls and try to raise zombies in the middle of the battle then thats a turn that im not healing the ghoul and they would die. I really need the tarpit ability of the zombies and the rank bonus they confer.

I have used the necromancer quite a bit he gets the spell off quite a bit with 2 dice and he also has the book for the extra casting. I'm not really sure at what you are getting at when you say its easier to cast on 3 dice cus there isnt any way for the necro to do that and no really good way for the vampire to be able to cast Vans because he has to roll to see what spells he gets.

As for the TK's he really likes his light horsemen, he always takes them and is actually really good at using them to screen or shoot and whatnot.

Thanks for the input though I like people opposing the lists so I can see what people think is the downfall of the lists and I can also throw my input back to see if people think I have a pretty good workaround.

Oh and if someone wants to throw back some other lists that would work together that would be great too because I am still new to my vamps.

Necromancers are able to use 3 Power Dice on Van Hel's Dance Macabre, you just need another Magic Item set-up to do it. A very usual set-up for the Necromancer is the taking one additional Spell (so you will have Invocation of Nehek and Van Hel's Dance Macabre) and give him 2 Power Stones. This way, he will be able to cast Van Hel's Dance Macabre a lot more guaranteed on the moments you really need it to work.

Then I would probably put the Book of Arkhan on the Vampire and not take the Helm of Commandment.

I think the weakness of your lists lies in dealing with Monsters. If the Bone Giant can't handle an opposing Monster, then you are pretty much screwed. Also the Blood Knights cost to much and are too easily redirected.

Some list idea's:


Vampire (Dark Acolyte, Book of Arkhan, Nightmare) - 173
Vampire (Dark Acolyte, The Black Periapt, Nightmare) - 153

Crypt Ghouls (Crypt Ghast) (15) - 128
Crypt Ghouls (Crypt Ghast) (15) - 128

Black Knights (Barding) (6) - 168


Liche Priest (Cloak of the Dunes, Hieratic Jar) - 160
Liche Priest (Dispel Scroll, Skeletal Steed) - 148

Skeleton Warriors (Bows) (10) - 80
Skeleton Warriors (Bows) (10) - 80

Tomb Scorpion - 85
Tomb Scorpion - 85

Screaming Skull Catapult (Skulls of the Foe) - 110


Or a bit less Magic focused:


Vampire (Dread Knight, Walking Death, Book of Arkhan) - 185

Crypt Ghouls (Crypt Ghast) (15) - 128
Crypt Ghouls (Crypt Ghast) (15) - 128

Black Knights (Barding) (5) - 140

Varghulf - 175


Liche Priest (Cloak of Dunes, Hieratic Jar) - 160

Skeleton Warriors (Bows) (10) - 80
Skeleton Warriors (Bows) (10) - 80
Skeleton Warriors (Bows) (10) - 80

Tomb Scorpion - 85
Tomb Scorpion - 85
Tomb Scorpion - 85

Screaming Skull Catapult - 90

thanks for the list ideas. I would just like to add some throwback to them. So the first list is interesting but unreliable. It seems to me that with casters I need to be doing one of two things. Either casting van's or raising. So since a raising vampire needs to be able to raise units past their starting these guys would need ghoul summoner wich they dont have. Ok so since they are vampires they have to roll for their spells and while 4 random choices from a 6 choice list is fairly decent odds of getting the spell I want it wont happen as much, out of three games I should have van's once but might not ever get it.

So it seems to me like this low point cost of a game I wouldn't reliable ever be able to cast van's and they would kind of be reduced to zombie makers for the game until the ghouls get to see some combat.

My other problem with ghouls is if they get charged by anything they don't have any armor and T4 is all they have so if they get hit by anything that can do damage I will prolly lose the front rank and then lose some more due to crumbling. I mean that would be something like if I lose 5 guys against a unit of say 20 then the combat res would make me loose another 6+ guys. Thats allot to have to raise.

While the black knights are cool I would REALLY have to run them with another unit for a flank charge or something because I find that if they don't win the first round of combat the crumbling from loosing kicks your arse.

So out of curiosity where would you keep your vampires from the first list and what would you have them doing? Oh and just pointing out we cant go over the 750 and your second VC list is at 756.

Well as far as the TK lists go they look ok but I will throw back this. so the Skeletal warriors dont have much versatility. they pretty much rely on spells for their extra move so what they end up doing is targeting a unit and shooting it until they get charged. The cool thing about a unit of light cav is that they get just as much shooting but have a MUCH greater move which means they get to run around the board drawing things too them only to move very far away so that something else can attack the unit that was chasing them. I have never really seen those things get into close combat and they always shoot at stuff and I have seen them played in about 10 games now and every time they have at least made up their point costs and thats not counting the last second table quarter capture that they can do.

So it would be great to hear some counters to what I have said and also since I havent actually had a chance to play my VC's much at all if you or anyone else could throw some tactics for your armies out that would be great.

Oh oh oh.. one more thing, so my one of my friends is a scaven player and he is taking an abomination.... We have kind of played a few mock 750 individual games against him and... well.. does anyone know how the hell to kill that thing? I think the bone giant combo that I was talking about might be able to kill it but im not really too sure we haven't tried a doubles against him yet.

here is what is signed up for the tourney so far.

Established Teams:
(High Elves and Lizardmen)
(Vampire Counts and Tomb Kings) - Me and My friend
(Skaven and Daemons or Ogres)
(Warriors of Chaos and Daemons)
(Dwarves and Empire)

Those Interested in Tournment but no team yet:
(high elves)
(norse if allowed)
(Lizardmen or Night Goblins)
(Wood Elves or Ogres)

Wish I were there, would toss Dark Elves into the mix.

dont suppose anyone else has some input do they?

Lightdrow wrote:thanks for the list ideas. I would just like to add some throwback to them. So the first list is interesting but unreliable. It seems to me that with casters I need to be doing one of two things. Either casting van's or raising. So since a raising vampire needs to be able to raise units past their starting these guys would need ghoul summoner wich they dont have. Ok so since they are vampires they have to roll for their spells and while 4 random choices from a 6 choice list is fairly decent odds of getting the spell I want it wont happen as much, out of three games I should have van's once but might not ever get it.

Out of three games, you should get Van Hel's Dance Macabre twice. You get 12 rolls for Spells and a sixth of these would be Van Hel's Dance Macabre.
Besides, only the Spells 5 and 6 are useless for your Vampires (unable to reliably cast). Gaze of Nagash is a decent damage spell. Curse of Years is more situational, but can be good against opponent's with good Armour Saves (Warriors of Chaos and Dwarfs for example).
You always have Invocation of Nehek and Raise Dead as well. Raise Dead is incredibly useful for March blocking and Redirecting, while Invocation of Nehek can be used to restore Wounds from turn one (all your opponents seem to have some form of shooting, except the WoC + DoC combo).

Lightdrow wrote:So it seems to me like this low point cost of a game I wouldn't reliable ever be able to cast van's and they would kind of be reduced to zombie makers for the game until the ghouls get to see some combat.

Your Vampires are Level 2 with Dark Acolyte, so they can use a maximum of 3 Power Dice per casting attempt. If your Vampire has VDM, he will be able to reliably cast VDM using 3 Power Dice. Besides, you also have the Book of Arkhan, while your teammate can still use Incantation of Urgency. As stated above, Vampires have more useful Spells then VDM, Raise Dead and IoN. Gaze of Nagash is a decent Spell, and Curse of Years can be good in certain situations as well.

Lightdrow wrote:My other problem with ghouls is if they get charged by anything they don't have any armor and T4 is all they have so if they get hit by anything that can do damage I will prolly lose the front rank and then lose some more due to crumbling. I mean that would be something like if I lose 5 guys against a unit of say 20 then the combat res would make me loose another 6+ guys. Thats allot to have to raise.

Your lower WS and T Skeleton Warriors will probably take a lot more wounds then Crypt Ghouls will. Besides, Crypt Ghouls can actually do things other then tarpit, which you can raise Zombies for.

Lightdrow wrote:While the black knights are cool I would REALLY have to run them with another unit for a flank charge or something because I find that if they don't win the first round of combat the crumbling from loosing kicks your arse.

Yes, Black Knights should try to get a Flank Charge. Breaking ranks, doing a decent amount of damage and being a Fear causer will break a lot of opponents. They move as Ethereal units, so use that to your advantage when trying to get your Flank Charge.

Lightdrow wrote:Well as far as the TK lists go they look ok but I will throw back this. so the Skeletal warriors dont have much versatility. they pretty much rely on spells for their extra move so what they end up doing is targeting a unit and shooting it until they get charged. The cool thing about a unit of light cav is that they get just as much shooting but have a MUCH greater move which means they get to run around the board drawing things too them only to move very far away so that something else can attack the unit that was chasing them. I have never really seen those things get into close combat and they always shoot at stuff and I have seen them played in about 10 games now and every time they have at least made up their point costs and thats not counting the last second table quarter capture that they can do.

The unit of Light Cavalry doesn't get just as much Shooting as Skeleton Warriors with Bows. In fact, they only get half the shots. Their move isn't that exceptional either, as they cannot March (Tomb King Special Rule). Everything but Dwarves moves just as fast, or faster. Combine this lack of movement with not being able to flee, not doing a great amount of damage through shooting, and being terrible in combat, and you have yourself one of the worst units.

Lightdrow wrote:Oh oh oh.. one more thing, so my one of my friends is a scaven player and he is taking an abomination.... We have kind of played a few mock 750 individual games against him and... well.. does anyone know how the hell to kill that thing? I think the bone giant combo that I was talking about might be able to kill it but im not really too sure we haven't tried a doubles against him yet.

Firing the Screaming Skull Catapult at it (twice per turn, using Incantation of Righteous Smiting) should be a good counter. He get's no Regeneration, due to Flaming Attacks. He doesn't get his 'Too Horrible to Die' roll either (again, Flaming Attacks). After the Catapult has done it's work, the Crypt Ghouls should be able to do the final Wounds with their Poisoned Attacks, while locking the Abomination in combat.

ok so you make some good points and I just wanted to ask you why you would take the crypt ghasts and not drop them both and take summon ghouls on one of the vampires so they can raise them past starting. Also I was wondering where you would run the two vampires, would they hold back on their horsies or would they be running attached to the black guard?

So what would you think of something like this then for us.

I guess after looking around I think I like something like this a bit and I think we are going to try it out when I get back down to where my friend lives for winter break.

Vampire (Dark Acolyte, Book of Arkhan, Nightmare) - 173
Vampire (Dark Acolyte, Ghoul Summoner,The Black Periapt, Nightmare) - 153

Crypt Ghouls (15) - 120
Crypt Ghouls (15) - 120

Black Knights (Barding) (6) - 168


Liche Priest (Cloak of the Dunes, Hieratic Jar) - 160
Liche Priest (Dispel Scroll, Skeletal Steed) - 148

Skeleton Warriors (Bows) (10) - 80
Skeleton Warriors (Bows) (10) - 80

Tomb Scorpion - 85
Tomb Scorpion - 85

Screaming Skull Catapult (Skulls of the Foe) - 110

Taking the barding off of the back knights and giving the other vampire Avatar of Death and maybe running him in the unit of black knights or at least running next to them and charging the same unit that they charge. I think he might do ALLOT of damage with a great weapon and always strikes first from VDM.

The Vampires can either hide in the units of Skeleton Warriors, or run around on their own (making sure enemy shooting units don't have a LoS to them).

The point of the Crypt Ghasts was to accept Challenges from Combat Characters that would otherwise slay a lot of Ghouls in a single turn. I agree with you that Summon Ghouls would be very nice to have. Perhaps dropping the Nightmares would be smart.

Something like this might work as well:

Vampire (Dread Knight, Book of Arkhan) - 160
Vampire (Dark Acolyte, Ghoul Summoner,The Black Periapt) - 160

Crypt Ghouls (Crypt Ghast) (17) - 144
Crypt Ghouls (Crypt Ghast) (17) - 144

Black Knights (Barding) (5) - 140

The first Vampire joins the Black Knights (and uses his Power Dice to either cast IoN on the Black Knights if needed or Raise Dead for march blocking). The second Vampire joins a unit of Skeleton Warriors and uses IoN on the Ghouls (or Raise Dead to redirect threats for the Tomb King shooting units).

hmm... ok so I like this list with an adjustment. So what about removing 3 ghouls and giving the foot vamp flayed Hauberk so something like this

Crypt Ghouls (Crypt Ghast) (15) - 144
- Attached here Vampire (Dark Acolyte, Ghoul Summoner,The Black Periapt, Flayed Hauberk) - 185

Crypt Ghouls (Crypt Ghast) (17) - 144

Black Knights (Barding) (5) - 140
- Attached here Vampire (Dread Knight, Book of Arkhan) - 160

I don't understand why you want your Casting Vampire to join one of your Ghoul units (clearly intended to be in combat), while he could just as easily join one of your friends Skeleton Bowmen.

On the subject of an additional item for the Casting Vampire, there are two options you should consider: The Flayed Hauberk (better defense for your General) or The Helm of Commandment. I would probably drop Ghouls equally from both units for this.

Possible changes to your Black Knight unit could be:

Adding a unit Champion (to accept Challenges you don't want your Vampire to be in).
Adding the Vampiric Power 'The Walking Death' to your combat Vampire to gain +1 Combat Resolution.
Adding a Standard Bearer to the unit for +1 Combat Resolution.

I definately wouldn't do all these changes, as it would leave you with very small Ghoul units at the start of the battle.

well ok, like I said I am new to playing VC's and I haven't played fantasy in a LONG time so out of curiosity if I have the caster vamp with the archers how am I watching the ghouls I would have to stay within 18 of them to actually cast IoN on them so are you saying that we want to be moving at least one unit of archers with the Ghouls? or should I be using the ghouls defensively by keeping them close to the archers. Oh and I guess I feed points wrong on the list I posted.

So... I guess maybe something like this:

Vampire (Dark Acolyte, Ghoul Summoner,The Black Periapt, Flayed Hauberk) - 185

Crypt Ghouls (Crypt Ghast) (14) - 120
Crypt Ghouls (Crypt Ghast) (15) - 128

Black Knights (Barding, Hell Knight) (5) - 156
- Attached here Vampire (Dread Knight, Book of Arkhan) - 160

So I guess I either run it like this or if I really need to I could do something like drop 4 Ghouls to add walking death or, and I kind of hate to do this in fear of making my caster die easily but I guess I could drop the flayed Hauberk from the caster instead of the ghouls. I guess I don't really know how much I need that extra +1 combat res in the squad.

I guess I could take a banner for cheaper, only 2 ghouls but how does it work that if the banner carrier dies and then gets back up with the banner does it count that the opponenet gets the VP for getting the banner or is that only if the guy isnt alive at the end of the game? I know I read what happens somewhere but I cant remember where. So what is your opinion on the vamp power VS the banner.

1 Last thing is I am not sure if I will be able to join his units. So I would just have to run my caster around like a chicken with its head cut off and without a faster move then he could very well get caught by flying units and killed dead.

If your Caster Vampire can't join your teammate's units, then he needs another unit to join (probably one of the Ghoul units). This Ghoul unit should probably not see combat, as combat limits the spellcasting your Vampire can do (no Line of Sight to anything).

well I really don't know how much LOS matters considering only gaze of nagash actually needs LOS and none of the other spells say they do they all just say like any unit within X of the caster. So as long as the unit of whatever he is in stays around 18" of whatever he wants to cast at then it shouldn't really be a problem.

ok so after hammering it out a little here us what I have

Vampire (Dark Acolyte, Ghoul Summoner,The Black Periapt, Flayed Hauberk) - 185

Crypt Ghouls (Crypt Ghast) (12) - 104
Crypt Ghouls (Crypt Ghast) (15) - 128

Black Knights (Barding, Hell Knight, Banner) (5) - 156
- Attached here Vampire (Dread Knight, Book of Arkhan) - 160


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh just got an answer from the tourney judge and he says that we cant join each others units.

Allright, so you now have two options for your Caster Vampire:

-Join a unit that is going to get into combat and hope he won't get killed.

-Form a Ghoul 'bunker' unit, which purpose is to shield your Caster Vampire from any ranged attacks, while staying away from combat units.


The last Army List you posted is an example of a list that uses the first method. This way, your Vampire will see combat. It's a fine list, though I'd probably distribute the Ghouls evenly amongst both units. You forgot to add the points for the Banner to the Black Knights unit cost as well.

Sample army list that uses a Ghoul bunker unit:

Vampire (Dark Acolyte, Ghoul Summoner,The Black Periapt) - 160 (General, joins a Ghoul unit)
Vampire (Dread Knight, Book of Arkhan) - 160 (joins Black Knights)

Crypt Ghouls (Crypt Ghast) (10) - 88
Crypt Ghouls (Crypt Ghast) (10) - 88
Crypt Ghouls (Crypt Ghast) (10) - 88

Black Knights (Barding, Hell Knight) (5) - 156


This setup relies on raising two of your Ghoul units (the ones without the Caster Vampire) from the start though. The 'bunker' Ghoul unit only needs IoN when they are getting pummeled with ranged attacks.
The remaining points could get the Caster Vampire a Nightmare, so he will be able to switch to a different Ghoul unit when the 'bunker' Ghoul unit isn't safe anymore.