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Hellooo Dakka!
OK, been toying with this idea for a while,
basically I love the idea of a LR Ares, but looking at the rules in 5th Edition I'm not sure it's going to be very effective
...so I came up with my own variant! What do you guys think? Comments & criticism very welcome, I genuinely want to know what peaople think with regards to Power Vs. Points as well as general ballance.

Here goes, oh and a bit of a photoshop concept to give you a better idea of what I was thinking...



LAND RAIDER THUNDERHEAD
350 POINTS
DESCRIPTION: Designed by Techmarine Indarnan, of the Red Scorpions Space Marine Chapter, to be the ultimate anti-Ork support vehicle. The Thunderhead is based on the Ares modification made to the Land Raider STC that was pioneered by the Dark Angels for undisclosed reasons. During his internship on Mars, Indarnan was included in the testing of the Ares, his front-line experience and outsider perspective securing him a position on the team. His vocal objections to the dismissal of the Ares inevitably fell of deaf ears, the design straying too far from Mechanicus stricture, but despite this Indarnan managed to ‘acquire’ himself a set of the Ares blueprints. Over a century after returning to his Chapter, during the final battle of the Crusade against the Warboss Urgok the Unstoppable, the Red Scorpions found themselves in an unusual strategic position, considering their foe. The cunning Warboss had withdrawn the bulk of his forces from the front lines and reinforced the Ork-occupied Hive city of Davios Primus. Faced with this Ork stronghold on the Hive sub-levels and unable to obliterate from orbit the billions of Imperial citizens still holding the higher tiers, Indarnan presented his designs for the Thunderhead to the ranking Commander and was granted permission to produce three of the Land Raider variants to lead the charge.
The Thunderheads Primary weapon, the Thunderfire Cannon, can wreak havoc amongst the large Ork mobs from a great distance, driving them from cover, disrupting their lines or simply tearing them asunder, while the Hurricane Bolter sponsons can chew through Greenskin bodies with increasing efficiency at decreasing range. The final enhancement is the Twin-Linked Lascannon Turret designed to be controlled by the Land Raiders Machine Spirit to take down incoming Ork transports and force their occupants to face the wrath of the other armaments.
The only factor limiting the number of Thunderheads to be taken to the field is that fact that it requires a Techmarine crew to calibrate the Thunderfire Cannon, this does however give the benefit of having experts on-board the Tank should the need arise for in-battle repairs, and also allows for a locational relay and terrain-mapping suite to be utilized alongside the normal targeting and communications packages.

UNIT: 1 Thunderhead pattern Land Raider.
TYPE: Tank.
SPECIAL RULES:
- Power of the Machine Spirit
- Techmarine Crew – Grants the ‘Blessing of the Omnissiah’ special rule (C:SM p71). Counts the Techmarine Crew as a single Servo-Harness-equipped Techmarine that is always in base-contact.
- Enhanced Sensors – The upgrades made by Indarnan to the Land Raiders Sensors and Communications Relay perform the same function as a Locator Beacon (C:SM p67)

TRANSPORT CAPACITY: 0

WEAPONS AND EQUIPMENT:
- Two Sponson-Mounted Hurricane Bolters
- One Hull-Mounted Thunderfire Cannon
- One Twin-Linked Lascannon on Anti-Aircraft Roof Mount
- Searchlight
- Smoke Launchers

OPTIONS:
- Pintle-Mounted Storm Bolter 10pts
- Hunter-killer Missile 10pts
- Extra Armour 15pts
- Dozer Blade 5pts
- Siege Shield 10pts

So, what do you guys think?

If you think the Ares is ineffective even though it can fire all its weapons at appropriate targets, why are you making a new Land Raider that has to fire the Lascannon at the same target as all the other weapons?

Not having a dig at the Ares, just Heavy Flamers aren't defensive & are very short range, and the demolisher & assault cannon only have 24"...
so you have to move to use the weapons, but can only use one of them if you move...a 300pts tank that can fire one short range weapon per turn struck me as a bit odd...

The TL Lascannon on the Thunderhead is pretty much there to just be used by the Machine Spirit.
PotMS says 'it can fire at one more target than normal, and at a different target to other weapons'
So move 6", fire Thunderfire (any mode) while closing, use the Hurricanes and any storm bolter upgrade as defensive weapons when in range (firing the Thunderfire all the while), AND have the TL Lascannon to take shots at transports so the rest of the weapons can do their job.

The final enhancement is the Twin-Linked Lascannon Turret designed to be controlled by the Land Raiders Machine Spirit to take down incoming Ork transports and force their occupants to face the wrath of the other armaments.

At least, that's the way I imagined it in the background, that make more sense? Or do I still sound like a crazy person?

meh, if I was going to do an apocalypse tank, i'd do something like a transport for a heroic character.

make it superheavy class, 2 structure points... 2 twin linked assault cannons per side, venerable, all that jazz.

What do I think? I think it is fething SWEET.

I think it is a great tank to include in an army with a Master of the Forge.

@ Horst
I see where you're comming from, and so does my Space-Marine-Ified Baneblade with all the trimmings/sponsons
but Super-Heavies still don't really strike me as 'Space Marine' they still ring too much of Guard, besides I'm feeling the need to indulge my LR STC fetish

@ Tacobake
That's what I like to hear!
But the key question is "Would you use one?"
i.e. Is it costed right? Balanced ok? Fluff agreeable? Worth the effort/cost of converting?
Now what do you think?

edit: oops, you snuck an edit in there while I was typing!
You mean field it with a MotF for fluff reasons, yeah?

Oh my god. That's brilliant. I've never liked the way the Thunderfire looked as a stand alone piece, but adding it to a tank is a fething awesome idea!

Any plans to actually try and convert one up?

Deffinetly!
I've recently quit smoking, so have a nice bit of cash in my back pocket to sling at the Hobby again!

...but lets face it, no cash is disposble this close to X-Mas, especially when I have a young family!

But soon, oh yes, soon... <--- (maniacal laughter)

325 might be a better price. 375 with a re-roll on the damage table. Make the Master of the Forge mandatory and 0-1 except for Red Scorpions.

Wow!
Lower the points cost?
I don't think I've ever seen the like for a home-brew unit!
Normally hear cries of 'OMGZ! Overpowered! Add AT LEAST 100 points!"
Guess this means I did a decent job on the costing from the off, huh?

The only thing I was considering but didn't include was an AA Mount for the TL Lascannon.
Not really come across them before, so not quite sure how it affects the cost of a weapon...
Would amending that justify the current points cost?

With regard to the 0-1 only when the Master of the Forge is on the field, I like the concept, and it fits with the fluff rather nicely, but I want to actually use this tank when I build it and haven't figured out how to convert up my MotF with Conversion Beamer on a Bike yet!

Anyone else care to weigh-in on this?

I don;t think an AA mount for the TL lascannon makes a whole lotta sense for the fluff you wrote. Orks don't have any flying transports, so obviously there's no point in adding AA equipment.

I don't agree on the MotF requirement. It doesn;t seem like a unit people use a whole lot.

What do you have done so far on your MotF biker conversion? the best way to get input on that is to let folks see what you've already done.

Yeah, point taken on the AA Mount...

As for my Master otF, he's still in the planning / bitz collecting stage.
I've got the bare-head Direct Only Techmarine (only bare-heads in my army are characters), Samaels Jetbike, a razor saw & sadly lacking Green Stuff skills!

I'd like to get a Space Crusade Conversion Beamer to use, but eBay hasn't been kind
and mount it on the Servo Harness, convert the Jetbike into a trike, and add as much bionics & Techno-bling as I can!

But that's still a ways off for now...

Commander Endova wrote:Oh my god. That's brilliant. I've never liked the way the Thunderfire looked as a stand alone piece, but adding it to a tank is a fething awesome idea!

Any plans to actually try and convert one up?

I agree, amazing if you can make it.

In regards to the laz turrents, i think keep em, its not just usefull against flying transports but all transports. this unit LR hasa good outload, defence and offence, each weapon can be used in either mode. its perfect for advancing, covering or retreating.

I think it is the TL Lascannon turret that really sells it for me.

325 because it is still just one model. It only takes one Brightlance shot to take it out. Also, 350 is getting kind of high you will not have room for all the other cool stuff in your army.

I mean if it is just Apoc may as well go 375 and go whole-hog but for normal games of 40 325 is probably as high as you want to go, points-wise.

just my 2c.

The other thing you could do, and this is just a thought, is make the Thundercannon 24" rather than the full 48". Matches the Hurricanes and you can still drive and shoot it.

Taco. good ideas, but the canon sould lob shots up to a distance, close and it starts to worry your own advancing troops. id say 36, take the middle ground.

It'd be great to use this in a standard game, but I think it'll be limited to Apocalypse for now.

The AA-Mount keeps coming to mind not because of fluff, but the model itself.
I've got some of the Whirlwind Hyperios pieces that use the same mounting system and there is a gear mechanism on the underside to allows it to angle upwards to about 75-80 degrees...strikes me as a pretty viable AA-Mount, especially since it can already swivel 360 around as well.
Actually having thought this out to type has made me decide, I'm amending the TL Lascannon Turret to be AA-Mounted and keeping the points cost at 350pts
(Unless you guys think that makes it unbalanced / undercoated)

Tacobake, I can see where you're coming from, but I want to mess with as few rules as possible, and I have to admit I like the idea of ripping chunks out of mobs all the live-long-game and then tearing into the remnants with the Hurricanes more and more as the final stretch closes

I picture the Thunderhead deploying opposite a Green Tide formation and ruining the Ork players day, while the Machine Spirit knocks out a Trukk or two along the way!

I like it, seems like a more sensible thunderfire conversion than the the idea I had last night:

Thunderback - a razorback with a thunderfire on top (and HB sponsons)

Hawkins wrote:Taco. good ideas, but the canon sould lob shots up to a distance, close and it starts to worry your own advancing troops. id say 36, take the middle ground.

The way it's mounted on that Land Raider would make it fire more directly. I'd agree with the half range and the 325.

Kapitan Montag wrote:I like it, seems like a more sensible thunderfire conversion than the the idea I had last night:

Thunderback - a razorback with a thunderfire on top (and HB sponsons)

Actually, I don't see why that wouldn't work...though I'd still add more elaborate sensors to it (like mine! ) by using this http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/spacemarines/whirlwind3.jpg

Love it!
The idea is unique, looks good, and a decent points cost

However, im now getting crazy ideas of a whirlwind with a thunderfire either side instead of its missiles

Ok guys,

I've had suggestions elsewhere to lower the points to around the 275pts mark...

Now I'm still not sure about dropping that low, but what about 300pts?
I think that's suitably low without making me feel like I'm cheating!

The thunderfire is 100 points (granted including techmarine) and other than that you've got a crusader with the assault cannons upgraded to Lascannons. But you;ve lost all transport capabilities.

But you have to add in the X factor that this tank would just decimate hordes like nothing else in the game. I think 325 is about right all considered.

325

You know what would be a cool rule? 36" but it can only fire at the unit directly in front of it. It could even have something like always -BS on the scatter.

but I am just a-musing.

Whirlwind Missile Launcher, put that on for an option of say 100pts, plus the special rule to move and for ordanence weapons (if it is ordanence).

I toyed with the idea of having a whirlwind instead of the Lascannon, made sense considering the Red Scorpions came up with the Helios, but the Ordinance rules kind of muddy the waters, suddenly you cant use all the weapons/have to pick and choose...and that was basically my beef with the Ares.
I'm not really trying to make up rules either, more find suitable/cool rules and work them into the fluff/design.
The less I make up the less there is to cry 'broken' about, it'd be a shame to build this and never be able to field it!

I think the Thunderhead has found its niche with the current load-out, I just need to close on the cost!
and this way I can still look at a MK IIb Land Raider Helios in the future without repeating vehicle roles.

Yeah I like it as it is and 325 is about right for points. For these sorts of things it is always good to aim high on the points (as you certainly did with your initial 350).

The reasons being you don't know quite how effective all those weapons put together will be in the game.

Like an army of space marines with flamers and multimetlas isn't cheesy. Same army but lead by Vulkan Cheese'Tan is suddenly very beardy indeed. Whilst we know how effective all these weapons are indivudally put togeher on the Landraider where you can fire the Thunderfire as a defensive weapon and with eth Hurricanes it could be just ludicrous. But equally it could be a bit of a damp squid...

The 2nd reason is you want your opponenet to let you field it and he is far more likely to do so if he thinks the points are about right and from his point of view he'll see the positives and not the negatives of the vehicle...

I like how you've balanced it and removing the transport capabilities fits in with the tank and its primary use whilst preventing it from just being the mother of all Terminator transports.

I honestly think your first draft was near perfect except for the points then only by about 25 points over (which is always better than huessing under). The other options mentioned are just cool things we'd want but would probably OP the vehicle or ruin its balance.