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Orkeosaurus wrote:Ah! What I was looking for.

Codex: Orks, 3rd Edition, Page 2 wrote:Orks are the most widespread and warlike race of aliens in the bloodstained galaxy of the 41st millennium. From the depths of the core to the distant ghost stars beyond the galactic rim burgeoning Ork empires rise and fall. In terms of sheer numbers and planets Orks occupy more of the galaxy than any other single race and were they unified they would soon crush all opposition. However the Orks' passion for violence is so unquenchable that they spend most of their time warring amongst themselves and any Ork leader worth his followers' respect would never dream of voluntarily following another.

So, there you have it. The orks hold more planets and have a greater population than humanity. They would destroy humanity if unified. They're never going to unite, as a race, without some very extreme circumstance.

Occupy. Not hold. Imperium HOLDS more planets. Is the DOMINANT species in most planets. Some orks hidden in a dank cave with clubs don't HOLD a world, but they do occupy it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just to add this. It may take a million bazillion years, and just as many crusades, but it is ENTIRELY possible for Imperium to wipe out orks. While the Imperium has the upper hand, they aren't going to be twiddling thier thumbs. They'll go on the offensive. Something I doubt orks are used to.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Occupy. Not hold. Imperium HOLDS more planets. Is the DOMINANT species in most planets. Some orks hidden in a dank cave with clubs don't HOLD a world, but they do occupy it..

Seriously?

So I'm going to guess since you're arguing semantics now that you do agree that there are more Orks then Humans in the galaxy (much less other ones), correct?

But now you want to debate "hold" and "occupy"? So let me then ask you this; since Orkeosaurus presented information that talks about how Orks "occupy" more worlds and have a larger population how about, since you claim the Imperium "holds" planets you provide a quoted source from fluff that uses that language (even better would be one that defines how holding is superior to occupying).

As an added bonus, below please find some definitions for occupy, I put a happy Ork face next to the definitions that suggest occupy can be used exactly like hold (and, in fact, is a much stronger word to suggest dominance FYI) I put a little Imperium sign next to the ones that support your apparent semantic argument.

# busy: keep busy with
# live (in a certain place) (generally speaking if we're living there, at the very least I don't think the Imperium "holds" it)
# occupy the whole of
# concern: be on the mind of
# invade: march aggressively into another's territory by military force for the purposes of conquest and occupation
# take: require (time or space) (you can't hold it if we take it)
# absorb: consume all of one's attention or time
# fill: assume, as of positions or roles

My apologies for the late reply.

It may not fit into the actual debate, but i think aimed questions/posts should be answered so ignore this if youre not interested or
not thor665.

Thor665 wrote:
Theoretically there's no such thing as a space marine chapter with "more then a 1000" excepting perhaps Space Wolves or some other
I will note I agreed with you about the numbers at Armageddon - I didn't argue them at all. i simply pointed out some inconsistencies between them and the 5th Core Rulebook. I'm not really sure what you're arguing with me here...could you restate what you're getting at with some of this because I'm too dumb to follow.

There are some threads about the size of space marine chapters. One at B&C provided reliable proof to estimate the possible maximum size over 1000, but its was also agreed that chapters are never at full strength, so the 1k from GW is ok.

Tried to get the process leading me to the numbers i have used from C: armageddon as clear as possible.
I could resist to this next time, promise.

Thor665 wrote:
From the Armageddon stuff you quoted (heck, by the sheer fact we're talking Armageddon) I'm going to presume your idea of claiming Orks lack the ability for interplanetary travel is just an obvious bit of silliness.

I dispute the ability of the orks to reinforce with planned forces and material, additionally it seems the imperium is good at claiming air superiority in almost every battlezone.
So orks just use what they find.
The imperium will replenenish what is needed.
I see this as an advantage.

Thor665 wrote:
So you're agreeing that the only reason the Orks haven't overrun the galaxy is because they start at a low tech level and have a lot of infighting...but you strongly disagree that they outproduce humans and (I suspect) disagree that they have better technology. Again sir, I'm not sure what you're getting at, it feels to me like you're debating in circles but maybe I'm just being dumb. Could you clarify this for me?

i hope i dont run in circles...

I disagree on "outproduce", since orks lioke to loot things.
To do so, you need someone else to produce these things first.
Also an organized forgeworld will easily ashame any number of mekboys. The orks stand no chance to win .
Faulty products wont count the same as good reliable products.
And better? maybe orks remember sometimes old tech, but they do not reproduce it.
The imperium would supply an army with standard tanks. Now if they had plans for better tanks, they would produce the same amount but better tanks.
Orks will always produce single efforts. One great vehicle. Next one could be total crap.

Obvious win for mankind.

Thor665 wrote:
Unfortunately the fluff doesn't give any numbers for how many Orks occupy a planet. Neither have they given numbers for Tau, Necrons, Tyranids, Eldar, Dark Eldar, or any other race save humans. Yet, we can extrapolate that Eldar don't have a lot of population from information given in books, and we can likewise extrapolate that the Ork population is immensely superior to that of humanity. I understand you want a hard number, but that number doesn't exist (as I've admitted) but can be easily shown to be extrapolated as much *much* larger then the human population (also, as I and others have shown in some previous postings). If you have specific issues with how we extrapolated then please tell me what those issues are and I can explain further.

Also, in the nature of exact numbers some of my earlier discussions about the numbers at Armageddon (1.3 million Guardsmen for a planet that's tithed 50 million a year) was to point out how GW's hard numbers are, to a large extent, quite unreliable.

GW supplys numbers.
For tau. I have quoted them to the tau fanboyz. Got totally ignored, because reading their own codex would set their numbers not where they wanted them. So we had the usual " billions of gazillions of tau".

So quoting codices may not work.

Why did i say "to extrapolate" is bad?
-you need hard numbers, because multipliers screw your result if one or more of them are false.
-fluff in codices always promotes the army. Another codex may contradict.
-using logic in a sci fi environment. Fast path to fall on your nose. GW ignores my/your/our logic completely.
-not using all factors. ork produce spores. normally, creatures produce a lot of spores ( or eggs or whatever) if most of them doesnt make it. So 1 new ork per spore is what you need for fantastillions of orks, but still wrong.

If youre argument is GW cant provide such hard facts, then i have to suggest to not extrapolate.
i still don't see how a little sentence in an ork codex about the green super tide should give anyone a base for any numbers.



Ps: i like Xavs "conclusion", some posts ago.

Well the rulebook say's "Should all of the Ork's unite the galaxy will be in a green wave", I think nid's are bigger on the number scales but it say's Ork's are the most populated Xenos threat.

1hadhq wrote:It may not fit into the actual debate, but i think aimed questions/posts should be answered so ignore this if youre not interested or
not thor665.

Ouch

I'll skip some of your other clarifications, though I will note I do feel Mekboyz are a solid competition to Imperial forge worlds. Yeah, our junk is inferior, but lots of Mekboyz can make it and they aren't reliant on old automated machines to do most of the production either. I think that's a strong advantage for the Orks.

1hadhq wrote:
GW supplys numbers.
For tau. I have quoted them to the tau fanboyz. Got totally ignored, because reading their own codex would set their numbers not where they wanted them. So we had the usual " billions of gazillions of tau".

So quoting codices may not work.

Why did i say "to extrapolate" is bad?
-you need hard numbers, because multipliers screw your result if one or more of them are false.
-fluff in codices always promotes the army. Another codex may contradict.
-using logic in a sci fi environment. Fast path to fall on your nose. GW ignores my/your/our logic completely.
-not using all factors. ork produce spores. normally, creatures produce a lot of spores ( or eggs or whatever) if most of them doesnt make it. So 1 new ork per spore is what you need for fantastillions of orks, but still wrong.

If youre argument is GW cant provide such hard facts, then i have to suggest to not extrapolate.
i still don't see how a little sentence in an ork codex about the green super tide should give anyone a base for any numbers.

My argument isn't that they can't, it's that they don't. Other then humanity I would challenge you to go to the 5th Core Rulebook and tell me the numbers for any race - I don't think they're in there in the way humanity's are. But, to move beyond that, I would reference you back about a page or two to a quote found by Orkeosaurus from the 3rd ed. Ork Codex which explicitly describes Orks as the most widespread race and how they occupy more worlds then any other race (page 2 of the Codex)

Again I will state for the third time, my issue with the numbers as presented in Armageddon should be quite clear as to why I think they are off. Though you continue to act like I'm whining about how they were compiled, which I'm not. Again I shall state, don't you think it strange that a world that's tithed 50 million guardsmen a *year* (source 5th core rulebook) had a standing force of guardsmen + PDF of 1.3 million? Heck, call it 8 million and it still sounds silly. That is the beginning and the end of the issue I have with the Armageddon numbers and why I suggest that now in 5th those numbers are spurious.

I'll offer up another quote for the "Imperium has more people/planets then the Orks" crowd. From the 5th edition rulebook, pg. 114 "...human worlds represent only a tiny proportion of the stellar systems in the galaxy."

If you combine that with other quoted information about how the Orks occupy the most planets in this galaxy *and* occupy huge swaths of other galaxies it seems, to me, to be a clear no brainer that Orks have vastly superior numbers to the Imperium. This is, by no means, a cut and dry proof that Orks can beat the Imperium, but what I'm trying to show is the argument that the Imperium somehow has more Imperial Guard, or even populace, then the Orks is clearly showable as just not true according to fluff.

Thor665 wrote:
My argument isn't that they can't, it's that they don't. Other then humanity I would challenge you to go to the 5th Core Rulebook and tell me the numbers for any race - I don't think they're in there in the way humanity's are. But, to move beyond that, I would reference you back about a page or two to a quote found by Orkeosaurus from the 3rd ed. Ork Codex which explicitly describes Orks as the most widespread race and how they occupy more worlds then any other race (page 2 of the Codex)

Page 2 of any codex is pure propaganda.
As said before, if we believe GW's first pages in any codex, anyones army would own the galaxy.
rather impossible, isn't it?

So beeing more widespread shall give you superior numbers?
...canadians are more widespread than germans. Do we have now more canadians or germans?

or to occupy more worlds.
Doesn't mean anything if your occupants are only a few lonely barbarians...

To your challenge:
The BRB has starmaps for tau, orks, eldar...
with some hints about the population of those worlds on these maps.

Maybe the orks explain me their map and i explain ours?

Thor665 wrote:
Again I will state for the third time, my issue with the numbers as presented in Armageddon should be quite clear as to why I think they are off. Though you continue to act like I'm whining about how they were compiled, which I'm not. Again I shall state, don't you think it strange that a world that's tithed 50 million guardsmen a *year* (source 5th core rulebook) had a standing force of guardsmen + PDF of 1.3 million? Heck, call it 8 million and it still sounds silly. That is the beginning and the end of the issue I have with the Armageddon numbers and why I suggest that now in 5th those numbers are spurious.

Maybe a campaign book is a better choice for objective numbers than a race specific codex?
But i agree GW is always silly.

Thor665 wrote:
I'll offer up another quote for the "Imperium has more people/planets then the Orks" crowd. From the 5th edition rulebook, pg. 114 "...human worlds represent only a tiny proportion of the stellar systems in the galaxy."

See, quality wins over quantity.

Also 5th ed rulebook tells us that even the munitorum doesnt know how many soldiers the imperial guard has.
Still mentions millions of regiments.
Now, since youre asking for it, i just apply the valahallan size ( 120.000 ) to those regiments.
result = 120.000.000.000. ( with 1 million regiments. )
only guardsmen, no citizens.

Going for the IG recrutement map:
- 11x 50 M
-26x 5 M
maybe about 700.000.000 new guardsmen each year.

Oh and 3288 x 100000 arent enough hive worlds.
Sorry, were sooo outnumbered.
Could we think about 3238x10000hive worlds x estimated 100.000.000.000 humans per hive world and not be impressed?

So given numbers ( recruts) are more reliable than estimated size from fluff ( millions of regiments).
Goes for all of us, even orks.

Thor665 wrote:
If you combine that with other quoted information about how the Orks occupy the most planets in this galaxy *and* occupy huge swaths of other galaxies it seems, to me, to be a clear no brainer that Orks have vastly superior numbers to the Imperium. This is, by no means, a cut and dry proof that Orks can beat the Imperium, but what I'm trying to show is the argument that the Imperium somehow has more Imperial Guard, or even populace, then the Orks is clearly showable as just not true according to fluff.

I think i did provide the size of the imperium, without using the promotional pages in any codex.
Rest assured i do not doubt that our ork supportes here believe in their fluff.
But its still impossible to present numbers for orks to compare both races and decide it.

Hint: imperium = X vs orks = ?

What's with the fanbois trying to act like what I posted doesn't count for some reason?

Face it, it says explicitly that orks outnumber everyone and would destroy everyone if unified, pretending like that's not the truth is just covering your ears because you have no rebuttal.

To say that "In terms of sheer numbers and planets Orks occupy more of the galaxy than any other single race and were they unified they would soon crush all opposition. However the Orks' passion for violence is so unquenchable that they spend most of their time warring amongst themselves and any Ork leader worth his followers' respect would never dream of voluntarily following another" is hyperbole is laughable. It gives specific strengths which are then hugely negated by specific weaknesses. "Propaganda" my ass.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Face it, it says explicitly that orks outnumber everyone and would destroy everyone if unified, pretending like that's not the truth is just covering your ears because you have no rebuttal.

Good.

Lets face:

-the nid fan claims he eats the whole galaxy. Would this become untrue because orks outnumber everything?
-the cron fan claims he won the galaxy before. As orks were unified against them back in the day, would this become untrue since orks are everywhere and cannot lose?
-the chaos fan claims his chaotic chaos wins through immortality and more spikes. Would this become untrue because codex orks
insists orks defeat anyone?
-the tau fan claims the greater good will prevail. Would this become untrue because the orks otunumber them and ignore the greater good?

Is it acceptable to accept that all of us are entitled to win?



BTW, orks would destroy everyone if unified includes orks, right?
->selfdestruction makes winning impossible.

Reminds me of the old "nuclear war" game... and its "winner" jumping and screaming: i won on that empty ruined planet....
may exchange the politician for an ork then

1hadhq wrote:Page 2 of any codex is pure propaganda.
As said before, if we believe GW's first pages in any codex, anyones army would own the galaxy.
rather impossible, isn't it?

Okay, so the fluff on page 2 of my DE codex that says they're not nice shouldn't be believed either? What fluff are you willing to accept? No, page 2 has in all of the codices a completely reasonable summary of what the race is about. I'll agree they are written up to express the relative danger/coolness of the race, but they are not any more or less worthy of consideration then any other piece of fluff. It might help, if you wish to rule out fluff, that you maybe tell us what are accepted sources of fluff for this debate before we go any further.

1hadhq wrote:So beeing more widespread shall give you superior numbers?
...canadians are more widespread than germans. Do we have now more canadians or germans?

If Canadians "in terms of sheer numbers and planets outnumbered every other race in the galaxy" then...yes, I would say they outnumber Germans.

1hadhq wrote:
Doesn't mean anything if your occupants are only a few lonely barbarians...

By the sheer nature of Ork reproduction it goes without saying that this is not the case. ...that does of course presume you accept the fluff about Ork reproduction, maybe you don't.

1hadhq wrote:To your challenge:
The BRB has starmaps for tau, orks, eldar...
with some hints about the population of those worlds on these maps.

Maybe the orks explain me their map and i explain ours?

I can't tell if you're being silly or intentionally obtuse. A tau map that informs us an area has "population density: medium" without any explanation as to what density medium means is as equally useless as the Ork map that informs us how many worlds they occupy (which we do have) but with no idea how many Orks occupy any given world. As I said, the only one with numbers is the Imperium. Tell you what, you explain how GW handles sub-quadrants and I'll try to suss out how many Orks can dance on the head of a pin.

1hadhq wrote:

Thor665 wrote:
I'll offer up another quote for the "Imperium has more people/planets then the Orks" crowd. From the 5th edition rulebook, pg. 114 "...human worlds represent only a tiny proportion of the stellar systems in the galaxy."

See, quality wins over quantity.

...are you agreeing that Orks have more quantity here? I thought your argument was that they don't?

1hadhq wrote:
I think i did provide the size of the imperium, without using the promotional pages in any codex.
Rest assured i do not doubt that our ork supportes here believe in their fluff.
But its still impossible to present numbers for orks to compare both races and decide it.

Hint: imperium = X vs orks = ?

But yet it shouldn't be impossible for the very clear logic that Orks outnumber humans to shine through, and yet seemingly it is.


Edit: Also, I have around me my DE Codex, my Space Wolves Codex, my Ork Codices, the necron Codex and an Eldar Codex. Looking over Page 2 in the summaries of each of these armies I see no information that leaps out at me as untrue to the nature of the army/race or a guranteed win vs. anything (except Orks if they unite their untold numbers). Out of curiosity if you could perhaps quote some page 2 fluff that you consider unreasonable propaganda other then the Ork one I would appreciate it.

Okay, so we know that orks outnumbers Imperium. (whether citizens are included in this count I don't know)
We know that IF orks ever totally united, they would pawn.
But they CAN'T.
Only to some degree, (aka Wussy Ghazgkhull)
But nothing NEAR the unification needed to take on and defeat the Imperium.

The orks will spawn with all the genetic traits of the fallen ork. They are born knowing only how to fight.

And the waaagh!!!! will grow if you don't get them flamers in quick.

So what use is a scorched eaqrth policy if the land you burn is of no use to you for years afterwards.

This argument will go on longer than the imperium.

But the Imperium will go on longer than the orks! LOL!

Ok

I tend to read the whole paragraph, so i wont buy your "we win because we unite, even if our fluff disagrees with us uniting" argument.


But i wouldn't rule out any source, since you need your single line in codex orks as one and only argument.
Sorry, should have seen that orks are less supported and can't quote much.


So you cant extract numbers from any source. Bad for you.
Could this mean its not possible to claim any size?
Again, my mistake.
If youre capable of "winning" whilst getting routed, youre also capable of dishing out numbers any size youre happy with.

Next point.

brougth forth examples why ork fluff doesnt trump other fluff or vice versa.
Seems i created a mess.
Wasn't meant to read the fluff being untrue, but the fluff often beeing incompatible with other codices.
Example: Tau - SM - BT. Tau still believe they win. 2 other codices say Tau get beaten. Multiple realities ?


So i see, my point stays my point and can't find its way to you.
Could argue back and forth here.
If you ever find something to base the numbers mentioned in this thread on, post it.
Really. Facts are welcome.


Until then, good night.

I think the Orks could destroy the Galaxy if united and the Nids could eat the Galaxy and the Necrons could turn everyone into lumps of metal, and the Imperium is the greatest military fighting force, and the Chaos could cover galaxy in Demons, etc.

You see all these things are true its just that they all counter themselves.
So its balanced, if a race was removed from the mix then it would make it unbalanced and the Galaxy would plunge into Chaos.

We don't know by how much orks outnumber imperium (again, civies not included). It may be but a fraction. There is no fluff to say that there are trillions of orks or that there is only 1 more ork than there are humans. So please, stop making up number.

Also, quit it with the hyperbole about orks ruling other galaxies and the SMALLEST size orks are nobs. Just don't.

Emperors Faithful wrote:We don't know by how much orks outnumber imperium (again, civies not included). It may be but a fraction. There is no fluff to say that there are trillions of orks or that there is only 1 more ork than there are humans. So please, stop making up number.

Also, quit it with the hyperbole about orks ruling other galaxies and the SMALLEST size orks are nobs. Just don't.

CIVILLIANS ARE IN-FETHING-CLUDED!

orks dont outnumber the imperium, they outnumber the entire human race!

orks ARE in other galaxies

there ARE sectors where there are orks the size of nobs as a minimum (the ghoul stars is an example)

quit being a bloody fanboy and accept what codices and various other posters have proven!

/end rage

1hadhq wrote:-the nid fan claims he eats the whole galaxy. Would this become untrue because orks outnumber everything?

No, because the orks aren't united, and they could only really push back the Hive Fleets if they worked in concert.

-the cron fan claims he won the galaxy before. As orks were unified against them back in the day, would this become untrue since orks are everywhere and cannot lose?

I don't recall hearing that the orks were unified against the necrons in the past, but regardless it's been tens of thousands of years since they fell asleep.

-the chaos fan claims his chaotic chaos wins through immortality and more spikes. Would this become untrue because codex orks
insists orks defeat anyone?

Once again, only when united would they destroy everyone, and it's pretty unlikely that "all opposition" is reffering to daemons of the warp anyways. They live in a different universe, they can't be opposition unless they've been summoned.

-the tau fan claims the greater good will prevail. Would this become untrue because the orks otunumber them and ignore the greater good?

"The Greater Good will prevail" is rhetoric, not fluff.

Is it acceptable to accept that all of us are entitled to win?

Everyone can't win at the same time. However, every race has some manner in which they could win:

The Imperium could have the Emperor be reborn and lead mankind to a new golden age, restarting the Great Crusade to claim the rest of the galaxy, and banishing Chaos to the dark corners of the universe with reason and understanding.

The Tyranids could come into the Milky Way in full force, and devour the galaxy with their overwhelming numbers, near-perfect unification, and absolute method of attack.

The Necrons could awaken in force, with the C'Tan united, and kill every other race in existence.

The Eldar couldn't actually take over the galaxy, but by awakening Ynnead they could save their souls and their race from Slaanesh.

The Tau could eventually progress technologically and through conquest of other races enough to rule the galaxy, although that's very far off for them.

Chaos could cause the Imperium to collapse, destroy the Emperor, and plunge the galaxy into a darkness and madness.

The Orks could finally unite under one banner. That is their trump card, and it's a lot less likely to happen than what pretty much every other race has.

BTW, orks would destroy everyone if unified includes orks, right?

No, that would make no sense. By that logic the Space Marines can't be the Emerpor's finest troops because that would make them better than themselves. It's silly, and it's not the way English is used.

(Besides, the passage technically says "crush all opposition", not destroy everyone.)

Alright after glancing through this thread, GET RID OF THE NUMBERS, no one can win, since everyone is using different sets of numbers(and a certain element of fanboyism), do it on tactical and military standpoint, include the fact that the GT is failing, once that happens orks win, no question,

Can the orks blockade many imperial systems at once, certainly, but imperial ships are far better, but they don't have enough to stop say 100-200 blockades at once due to the segmentum structure, so I say orks will win even if its just a few planets at a time

1hadhq wrote:Ok
So you cant extract numbers from any source. Bad for you.
Could this mean its not possible to claim any size?
...
...
Really. Facts are welcome.

Other then Hive worlds can you please give me the exact accounting of how many planets are populated by the Imperium? I would love to know the "facts" of the following (please include annotations of where the information was written);

How many Agri Worlds (and possibly how many planets each feeds)
How many Feudal Worlds?
How many Feral Worlds?
How many Artificial Worlds?
How many Death Worlds?
How many Forge Worlds (and how many of these can create Leman Russ tanks and/or Landraiders)

Clearly if you cannot tell me the hard exact numbers as presented by GW then there may be a lot, but it's even more possible there may only be five or six of each (that's about what it looks like on that totally accurate and all inclusive map on page 138 of the 5th edition rulebook. When you can present these facts to me I will accept that the number of Orks is inconsequential and that you are correct that the Imperium owns Ork face if the battle was one on one and will officially agree that I am a foolish Ork fanboi, put that information in my signature, and include a notation about how you owned me.

If this seems silly to you then I would hope you might try to reasses your strange demands of me for the argument of Ork numbers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Also, quit it with the hyperbole about orks ruling other galaxies and the SMALLEST size orks are nobs. Just don't.

You are correct, the posters who claim this are, I do believe, incorrect. However if you note Ork Codex, 3rd edition, pg 48, as written by Genetor Lukas Anzion of the Imperium of Man. He refers to areas populated by Orks the size of Skarboyz (who don't really exist in the current edition). Skarboyz are slightly smaller then a regular Nob but much larger and more deadly then a regular boy. The Imperium lackey postulates with great fear the size of the Skarboy Nobs...

Ah, that was probably my bad. I forgot about skarboys existing.

Manchu wrote:
Just what I was thinking. But let's give this thread a little more fluff support, gentlemen. This isn't General Discussion, after all, this is 40k Background.

From what ive seen theres been more ork Fluff to back up the ork claims maybe ive missed things(which i probably have) but it seems the fluff points towards the orks favor

@Thor665: There are definitely 1 million Imperium worlds at any one time(Some lost to attacks, others gained through crusades). I would highly doubt there would be only 6 of ANY kind of planet. More likely to be hundreds, if not thousands of each.

Apart from artificial worlds. Don't really know much about them.

P.S. Those examples are only the most famous. (Or just randoms)

For the record Emperors Faithful, I am fully cognizant and accepting of that. But I'm attempting to prove a point to 1hadhq and thus am forced to present an argument in a very similar vein to the way he does.

Now, shhhh, I'm hoping he doesn't notice.

I shall have the Commissar's hands at my throat for this. Now, we all know that the filthy 'Skins are disorderly, disorganised and random at the most of times. But consider this: Evolution is random, discoveries are sometimes random (man discovering fire, for instance)... And yet man exists in the galaxy! If the Orks simply exist, they will unite, discover and conquer the galaxy and beyond! Not even our beloved Emperor could stop that from happening. They would become a sophisticated, inventive, civilised and advanced race through just being alive... That is, if the Imperium doesn't destroy them first. By the Emperor, a lasgun's not going to be much use for that purpose!

"Guardsman!" The Bolt Pistol's shot ends the Cadian's heretical words.

Orks cant evolve just to make that clear...Why would they evolve there supiror fighting race.

Sorry that I'm being lazy and not reading all ten pages if its already been mentioned just ignore me.

I won't say it would be an easy win but the orks will win. Heres my argument, "Orks excel in the field of war, on everything from a personal to galactic scale. It is conflict that governs their entire society, their technological advances and even their individual growth."

So you have to say that a war with the Humies would span centuries if not a millennia, with growth we have from the Ork codex that in a decade long campaign the orks grew to twice the size of the humies, think what the orks would become in this war. Now then if you look in 979.M41 The Tellyporta technology came into life while Ghazghkull Thraka was fighting on Armageddon, So think of the leaps and bounds Orks would have in technologies if you brought this war upon the whole race O.O Just my two cents.

Orkeosaurus wrote:
No, that would make no sense. By that logic the Space Marines can't be the Emerpor's finest troops because that would make them better than themselves. It's silly, and it's not the way English is used.

(Besides, the passage technically says "crush all opposition", not destroy everyone.)

My mistake. Used the wording as posted in this thread, not the official version.
Maybe, all opposition includes orks, no?

Deem the other points accepted.

Huffy wrote: include the fact that the GT is failing

The grand tournament is failing?

Or did you imply the perfect tech of he who always sits on his holy toilet could fail? Impossible.
And repaired already.

Thor665 wrote:
Other then Hive worlds can you please give me the exact accounting of how many planets are populated by the Imperium? I would love to know the "facts" of the following (please include annotations of where the information was written);

How many Agri Worlds (and possibly how many planets each feeds)
How many Feudal Worlds?
How many Feral Worlds?
How many Artificial Worlds?
How many Death Worlds?
How many Forge Worlds (and how many of these can create Leman Russ tanks and/or Landraiders)

Clearly if you cannot tell me the hard exact numbers as presented by GW then there may be a lot, but it's even more possible there may only be five or six of each (that's about what it looks like on that totally accurate and all inclusive map on page 138 of the 5th edition rulebook. When you can present these facts to me I will accept that the number of Orks is inconsequential and that you are correct that the Imperium owns Ork face if the battle was one on one and will officially agree that I am a foolish Ork fanboi, put that information in my signature, and include a notation about how you owned me.

If this seems silly to you then I would hope you might try to reasses your strange demands of me for the argument of Ork numbers.

Oh if you get my boss to grant me some free days, ill supply you with numbers.

Why do you think i try to own you?

PS: i offered some pages ago to drop the "numbers game".....
PPS: a good source for ork and imperial numbers would be codex armageddon. Both armys got their size mentioned at the same page.

Thor665 wrote:For the record Emperors Faithful, I am fully cognizant and accepting of that. But I'm attempting to prove a point to 1hadhq and thus am forced to present an argument in a very similar vein to the way he does.

Now, shhhh, I'm hoping he doesn't notice.

Ok. i will not notice.




But thanks, quoting the ork dex got me to find a nice quote for the Tau and their illusion of winning the galaxy...

The GT failing means the Webway or the Astromanon or something not the Big E dying.

Everyone seems to be biased towards a faction and we cant agree, so not point argueing.

1hadhq wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:
No, that would make no sense. By that logic the Space Marines can't be the Emerpor's finest troops because that would make them better than themselves. It's silly, and it's not the way English is used.

(Besides, the passage technically says "crush all opposition", not destroy everyone.)

My mistake. Used the wording as posted in this thread, not the official version.
Maybe, all opposition includes orks, no?

And the use of the English language, apparently.

1hadhq wrote:
Oh if you get my boss to grant me some free days, ill supply you with numbers.

How about you just tell me what book(s) you would get the hard numbers from and I'll do it for you? I would think if the hard numbers are out there all you'd need to do is flip open the book they are in and quote them to me. Why would it take days?

1hadhq wrote:
Why do you think i try to own you?

...maybe because I didn't say that? I said I'd put it in my sig that you had owned me if you had met previously stated criteria from that same post. (if English is your second language, by the way, I do apologize for this comment and the earlier one.)

1hadhq wrote:
PS: i offered some pages ago to drop the "numbers game".....

If I were you I'd be offering the same thing, since the numbers game goes in the Ork's favor. As a side note I don't recall ever asking you to "drop the numbers game" nor do I recall suggesting that it was unimportant to the overall debate (I just feel it's as silly as if a pro-Ork person decided to argue that not all Space Marines have access to Bolter technology). I simply have stated that I feel there are far more Orks in existence then humans. You have disagreed with this. The only "numbers game" I have had any issue with is your obsession with hard fact numbers that GW has not provided. The post you are quoting me from had me request some hard numbers that you equally cannot provide in an attempt to make you somehow grasp that simply because I cannot point to a book that says "# of Orks = x" does not in any way prove that I cannot argue from a logical fluff standpoint that there are, indeed, more Orks then humans. I'm still not entirely sure if my inability to manage to get what I'm arguing across to you is due to an intentional level of obtuseness from you, or perhaps a language barrier due to English not being your native tongue. (and fascinatingly, from some of your posts, you seem to be feeling the same way towards me. For the record my argument is that there are more Orks then humans, and I believe that your argument is that there are more humans then Orks or that the numbers are relatively close. Please correct me if I'm wrong.)

1hadhq wrote:
PPS: a good source for ork and imperial numbers would be codex armageddon. Both armys got their size mentioned at the same page.

And there were more Orks then humans... Though I still stand by all of my earlier statements as to why I feel those numbers fail to accurately represent the correct amount for either side and will note yet again that you still have yet to answer my direct question to you about those numbers (which I have now pretty much asked for the third time).

For more GW number fun let us take 'Planetstrike' in the description of the invasion of Rynn's world (pg 67). It says in the fluff that there was no way to know how many *millions* of Orks descended upon the planet. It then gives a breakdown of mobs (much akin to the Armageddon listing). There were 198 mobs (estimated). Even if I presume the supposed 'max mob size' of 3,000 (per Armageddon Codex) that tells me that there were barely over half a million Orks there. So, I have a single book and a single page that is potentially proving incorrect numberwise to itself. The possible solutions, to my mind, are;

1. That 3,000 is nowhere near the max mob size.
2. That GW isn't that clever at math and/or doesn't back check facts with previous books.

Either of those options throws the numbers in the Armageddon book (not to mention in every book they write) into question. I am much more faithful in their ability to convey a concept - and that concept is that there are more Orks then humans, a concept which has never had any doubts or aspersions thrown on it in any source of fluff (please feel free to present a quote if I'm wrong).

1hadhq wrote:

Thor665 wrote:For the record Emperors Faithful, I am fully cognizant and accepting of that. But I'm attempting to prove a point to 1hadhq and thus am forced to present an argument in a very similar vein to the way he does.

Now, shhhh, I'm hoping he doesn't notice.

Ok. i will not notice.

I still can't tell if you're incredibly clever and this is a very witty retort considering the rest of your reply post or not. If so, my hat is off to you.

Feel free to oddly cherry pick and redefine what I have said in your reply.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xav wrote:Everyone seems to be biased towards a faction and we cant agree, so not point argueing.

Actually, to be perfectly honest, Manchu's arguments in this thread pretty much convinced me that in the concept of "winning" as defined by managing to probably hold the galactic core and defending the galaxy from Ork incursions. Ina one on one situation I would then claim that the Imperium could 'win'. I had originally based my idea of Orks as the winners off of the idea of absolute annihilation, (which, to be honest, neither side seems likely to manage). I simply voted considering Ork physiology, since I figured they'd have a better chance of doing so. But in a one on one I think the Imperium could achieve their most likely definition of victory.

This is, of course, irrespective of whether or not there are more Orks. (Which there are.)

" I'm an idiot because I made twenty primarchs from my own flesh and blood and half of them turned traitor and killed most of the other half! " - The Emperor of Mankind.