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DarthDiggler wrote:I thought Jankin said he tried the all stealer list and he said it didn't work so well?

I've run half-a-dozen games at 1500 pts, stealer heavy, with a list like this:

Swarmlord + 2 Tyrant Guards
2 Zoanthropes
2 Hive Guard
8 Ymgarl Stealers
10 Poisoned Stealers
10 Poisoned Stealers
10 Termagants
3 Warriors w/Deathspitters
1 Screamer-Killer w/Bioplasma

Far cry from optimized, but a few results jumped out at me:
1) Ymgarl are actually very solid performers, especially if the Swarmlord can buff them; I'm trying to find ways to keep them. (WAY too many useful Elite options!)
2) Not nearly enough AT, and what there is, is too fragile. (I haven't finished my T-fex conversions yet; at 1850, I can include 2 of those, instead of the Carnifex, and I expect vast improvement along those lines.)
3) Very little can handle being charged by 10 Poisoned stealers.
4) The Swarmlord is a great force multiplier here, as you get the choice of Preferred Enemy (if you need more hits) or Furious Charge (if you need higher strength). S6 charging Ymgarl handle AV10 vehicle armor easily.
5) The Warriors were essentially useless in that configuration. Not enough shots to be meaningful.
6) If anything gets to shoot the Stealers, they die.

I'll keep playing with it - next version (1850) will probably look either like this:

Swarmlord + 2 Guard
3 Zoanthropes (or 2 in a pod?)
3 Hive Guard
8 Ymgarl
10 poisoned stealers
10 poisoned stealers
10 Termigants
Tfex w/rupture cannon
Tfex w/rupture cannon

or this:
Prime w/boneswords
3 Zoanthropes (or 2 in a pod?)
3 Hive Guard
8 Ymgarl
9 poisoned stealers
9 poisoned stealers
9 poisoned stealers
9 poisoned stealers
10 Termigants
10 Termigants
Tfex w/rupture cannon
Tfex w/rupture cannon

(Good lord, the Swarmlord eats a LOT of points.)

I don't know, this could be me, but I struggle with the idea of busting transports with a crap ton of assault because, like Shep said, IG and Space Marines gladly trade a transport for the ability to shoot 5+ save infantry in the open with impunity the next turn.

I have fielded Genestealers in a great many games, and I find them a great unit to deal with heavy assault hitters, but as a transport popper I have always been underwhelmed. I played a game where outflanking Genestealers hit multiple AV 10 rear vehicles and failed to do much then die to heavy flamers. I also think relying on Infiltrating, unless we are talking about 100 Genestealers, is bad because every IG player worth his salt takes Heavy Flamers on ever tank in the army. Oh, you move forward, making it hard for me to hit you, and I take out half the squad before you can do much of anything? Great.

I agree with CK on the idea of rippers, less for their ability to bust ttransports, but more for their ability to provide another target against a gun line. I find that it is more important for you to present critical targets to a gun line that has the survivability to last the first two turns. FNP Zoenthropes are incredibly hard to put down, but force your opponent to have to deal with them, or suffer the consequences, more so then Hive Guard.

I think the problem with assault that my list has been suffering from is that I may be a little too aggressive. For example, I threw close to 30 Termagaunts, 3 Hive Guard, and a Hive Tyrant w/ a Tyrant Guard into a combat against Logan and 8 Space Wolf Terminators, even though they where under the effects of Paroxym, my opponent still got Counter Attack, Prefered Enemy, and Logan's shout off and beat me in assault. In hindsight, I should have just charged the Gaunts in, caused the casualties that I could, so my Hive Tyrant could have dealt with the Long Fangs, which would have kept my Tervigon alive to grab an objective, and also would have prevented the gaunts from running off the objective I held. The hope being that the Terminators would have been tied up in combat for a few turns, and once they got out of it, I hit them with the rest of my force.

When I think of things like that, I am more likely to blame my generalship then my list.

I think the problem with assault that my list has been suffering from is that I may be a little too aggressive. For example, I threw close to 30 Termagaunts, 3 Hive Guard, and a Hive Tyrant w/ a Tyrant Guard into a combat against Logan and 8 Space Wolf Terminators, even though they where under the effects of Paroxym, my opponent still got Counter Attack, Prefered Enemy, and Logan's shout off and beat me in assault. In hindsight, I should have just charged the Gaunts in, caused the casualties that I could

30 gaunts would have died to Logan and the Termies. They would have been wrapped up in one round of combat. I think the gamble you tried was the best answer at that moment. Sometimes you gamble and lose. It happens.


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I have been mentioning it, but I think it bears restating. The IDEAL F-U unit is genestealers imho. Deep striking ANYTHING that is meant for cc is not gonna work. You are looking at a turn 3 assault, if your reserves come in. That leaves your enemy with nothing better to shoot turn 1 and 2 than your endgame units like the hive guard.

It isn't so much about assaults as it is limiting their ability to stand and shoot...it forces the gunline player to move his units or suffer the consequences. Forcing him to move the gunline reduces the firepower on key units like Hydras, etc.

Gargs are a nice option in the new codex, but as they lack a way to pen av10, mech armies can largely ignore them in their threat calculations.

I'm not entirely sure about that. They have access to str4. and 60+ of them is a tall order to pull down.

Same goes with hormagants and ripper swarms.

Rippers aren't used for direct assault...more for a harassment unit. Hormagants are sort of 50/50. I haven't seen many people use them vs. me to see definitive results.

Warriors and Raveners, while they possess some decent abilities, suffer greatly from the s8+ antivehicle/nob metagame.

The thing is that these units are there to shoot first, assault second. I think that with the right combos of powers, etc. cast on them they can more than handle those units. Raveners are the fastest unit besides gargs, so I think they are worth looking into with the right builds.

You pay 2-3 times as much as a stealer, but still in effect have the same survivability, with no outflank or infiltrate skill.

In most of the games I have played with my IG vs. stealers, I have torched all of them by turn 3-4. Trading a unit of stealers for a chimmy like Shep said isn't good business. Especially, once the Banewolfs and HF from other tanks get involved. Stealers are good, but I think spamming them is a mistake.

Mahu wrote:I don't know, this could be me, but I struggle with the idea of busting transports with a crap ton of assault because, like Shep said, IG and Space Marines gladly trade a transport for the ability to shoot 5+ save infantry in the open with impunity the next turn.

Oh, it's not just you, but let's break the problem all the way down:

1) IG: Targets are Chimerae (often with payloads), LRBT-hulls, and Chimerae-hulled support vehicles (including the Vendetta). This is the worst possible match-up: each vehicle is lethal in itself, and all the transports are carrying troops as well. I have always played mech IG, and I don't know how to counter them with any incarnation of stealer shock. Barring absurd luck, or some really interesting terrain (disclaimer: my local metagame includes a few instances of this sort of really interesting terrain), the 'nids are going to get hurt.

2) SW/SM gunlines: This one doesn't bother me as much. Fewer heavy flamers by far, plus the marines can't shoot from inside razorbacks. So either they are outside their transports, where fleeting, infiltrating/outflanking/Ymgarl genestealers can multicharge some stuff, or they're buttoned up, and their anti-swarm firepower is almost nil at the outset (the razorbacks have to focus on the Tfexes/Hive Guard/Zoanthropes, or lose tanks at a decent rate).

3) Rhino-mounted SW/SM: I don't mind these, either. They generally lack the firepower at range (while mounted up) to kill lots of stealers, or even the Hive Guard, particularly with a 'gant screen.

4) Mech Eldar: Generally lack the massed firepower; they're an avoidance army, and have problems dropping Tfexes & Hive Guard fast enough at range.

My local metagame has relatively few competent IG gunlines (new IG players all seem to make the same mistake: they don't move on objectives until way too late), so I've been getting away with stealer-heavy lists. At the GT level, I'd expect very different results.

I think I am fortunate to have a pretty good competitive mix of opponents.

Here is the list I think I settled on for the next round of playtesting, unfortunately this week is an RTT that I will be bringing my Marines too, so testing will have to wait.

-HQ-

Hive Tyrant w/ Lashwhip-Bonesword, Devourers, Ancient Enemy, Life Leach, Paroxysm = 210

2 Tyrant Guard = 120

-Elites-

3 Zoanthropes = 180

3 Zoanthropes = 180

3 Hive Guard = 150

-Troops-

10 Termagaunts = 50

10 Termagaunts = 50

Tervigon w/ Catalyst, Onslaught, Toxin, Adrenal, Cluster Spines = 210

Tervigon w/ Catalyst, Onslaught, Toxin, Adrenal, Cluster Spines = 210

9 Rippers w/ Tunnelers = 108

-Heavy Support-

Tyrannofex w/ Rupture Cannon, Thorax Swarm w/ Shreddershard Beatles, Cluster Spines = 265

Tyrannofex w/ Rupture Cannon, Thorax Swarm w/ Shreddershard Beatles, Cluster Spines = 265

Total = 1998

Mahu wrote:I think I am fortunate to have a pretty good competitive mix of opponents.

Here is the list I think I settled on for the next round of playtesting, unfortunately this week is an RTT that I will be bringing my Marines too, so testing will have to wait.

-HQ-

Hive Tyrant w/ Lashwhip-Bonesword, Devourers, Ancient Enemy, Life Leach, Paroxysm = 210

2 Tyrant Guard = 120

-Elites-

3 Zoanthropes = 180

3 Zoanthropes = 180

3 Hive Guard = 150

-Troops-

10 Termagaunts = 50

10 Termagaunts = 50

Tervigon w/ Catalyst, Onslaught, Toxin, Adrenal, Cluster Spines = 210

Tervigon w/ Catalyst, Onslaught, Toxin, Adrenal, Cluster Spines = 210

9 Rippers w/ Tunnelers = 108

-Heavy Support-

Tyrannofex w/ Rupture Cannon, Thorax Swarm w/ Shreddershard Beatles, Cluster Spines = 265

Tyrannofex w/ Rupture Cannon, Thorax Swarm w/ Shreddershard Beatles, Cluster Spines = 265

Total = 1998

I like it so far, but without having those zoans in pod, there is not going to be anyone around to synapse the deep striking rippers. If yo can find 80 points, you can buy those two pods, you don't have to deep strike just because you bought the pods, but it does give you that option, when their vehicles claerly won't be coming at you.

Also, I just don't get the lash whip and bonesword. The lash whip is just so underwhelming. When i played with it last i got charged by a full unit of harlequins, with a legal charge, the eldar player managed to get only one model in base to base with the tyrant. And I HATE abilities that you pay points for that require an opponent to fail a leadership test for it to work, seriously GW... get rid of all of those things. Or make them a lot easier to have. I'd take double devourer on the tyrant.

Then batrep!

I like it so far, but without having those zoans in pod, there is not going to be anyone around to synapse the deep striking rippers. If yo can find 80 points, you can buy those two pods, you don't have to deep strike just because you bought the pods, but it does give you that option, when their vehicles claerly won't be coming at you.

That is indeed a valid option. The primary reason they are on the board is to pull firepower away from the big MCs so I don't know how necessary they are. Plus my Tervigons have onslaught, so I can be shooting tanks with them on turn two anyways.

But Pods could serve somewhat the same purpose Rippers do.

Also, I just don't get the lash whip and bonesword. The lash whip is just so underwhelming. When i played with it last i got charged by a full unit of harlequins, with a legal charge, the eldar player managed to get only one model in base to base with the tyrant. And I HATE abilities that you pay points for that require an opponent to fail a leadership test for it to work, seriously GW... get rid of all of those things. Or make them a lot easier to have. I'd take double devourer on the tyrant.

Last game they stopped a Wolf Claw from striking me before they died. I am finding with a Gaunt screen I am more able to get the charge then be charged. I also have gotten into the habit of having my Guard behind my Hive Tyrant, because it is easier for the unit to get cover saves, and any unit that charges me has to hit my Hive Tyrant, especially characters.

Then batrep!

I would Batrep tonight if I had a willing opponent.

Mahu wrote:Last game they stopped a Wolf Claw from striking me before they died. I am finding with a Gaunt screen I am more able to get the charge then be charged. I also have gotten into the habit of having my Guard behind my Hive Tyrant, because it is easier for the unit to get cover saves, and any unit that charges me has to hit my Hive Tyrant, especially characters.

Not according to INAT. When joined to tyrant guard, the hive tyrant is treated as an upgrade character. At least for another week or two.

You had an opportunity to rob your opponent of one set of wolf claw attacks? How about trade that for 6 twin-linked strength 6 shots? That could have killed the space wolf before you charged right? And its even more anti-transport. Thats all I'm sayin'

I like it so far, but without having those zoans in pod, there is not going to be anyone around to synapse the deep striking rippers.

Rippers are fearless though, right? And their instinctive behavior is feed...which is perfect. Additionally, with them arriving on turn 2 and careful placement you should be in synapse range by then anyways. Mahu uses his zoans to cover his bigger bugs, so they are usually towards the front anyways.

You had an opportunity to rob your opponent of one set of wolf claw attacks? How about trade that for 6 twin-linked strength 6 shots? That could have killed the space wolf before you charged right? And its even more anti-transport. Thats all I'm sayin'

I've tried to tell him his tyrant needs a shooting option. Not to sure about having double devourers, but a pair could certainly help.

Not according to INAT. When joined to tyrant guard, the hive tyrant is treated as an upgrade character. At least for another week or two.

I don't get it, they still have to charge closest to closest, and every model has to get into combat if it is able up to it's maximum movement.

If you have:


-----------------Hive Tyrant-----------------
-------------Guard-------Guard-------------

At maximum coherency, that is 4" of movement to avoid the Hive Tyrant. Now assuming there is a Gaunt Screen the at the very least prevents the initial movement of an enemy unit from getting any closer the 2" to 3", it would be hard pressed for a character to cover that distance. And the Bonesword comes into play against most characters.

Also with Dual Devourers, I limit my Psychic shooting attack potential almost immediately. Sure, there are some situations where the increased range and firepower of two Devourers would be better, but most situations I find I am reliant on my powers to do something. I would rather Life Leech and Devour a Infantry Platoon, then hit them with two devourers. Plus the Bonesword is free, on a Tyrant that already re-roll hits against most things.

You had an opportunity to rob your opponent of one set of wolf claw attacks? How about trade that for 6 twin-linked strength 6 shots? That could have killed the space wolf before you charged right? And its even more anti-transport. Thats all I'm sayin'

With 2+ saves and wound allocation, maybe, maybe not. My opponent would be more willing to throw those shots at the cheap Terminators then a Stormshield. And also remember, this was a Wolf Claw that was sitting on 4 attacks, re-roll hits and to wounds.

But that is just one example, I agree with you that the dual Devourers may be the more consistent option, but I am sticking with the Bonesword for cost for now.

CaptKaruthors wrote:Rippers are fearless though, right? And their instinctive behavior is feed...which is perfect.

Don't forget about mindless.... where they lose major wounds on every instinctive behavior test.

Mahu wrote:stuff

Oh I see... when you said "have to attack the tyrant" I think you meant, "have to get into base to base with the tyrant." And you are right, you could move ever so carefully and get that set up.

And true about paroxysm being a shooting attack. But its more to get 9 strength 6 hits when you are shooting that rhino, and less about making that terminator take a save.

I'm not totally anti-lash whip. But a power weapon on an MC that has a cutesy ability, and a base to base upgrade that should really only be helping your tyrant guard in almost all cases, isn't worth the opportunity cost of four and a half strength 6 hits, especially playing boxhammer 40k.

the real issue at hand with me is that I just don't think hive tyrants in general are worth fielding, so i should probably remove myself from the discussion. There are far too many TWC with storm shield or THSS termies in tourney play to spend 320 points on a walking CC unit that can't even beat a 200 point cavalry unit or LRC embarked unit.

Honestly I don't know how you guys are making those turds work

Don't forget about mindless.... where they lose major wounds on every instinctive behavior test.

True that can be risky, but one turn possibly out of synapse would be okay by me. 27 wounds is a lot to chew through.

Wow, away for a few days and missed a lot...

@nurglitch: I just wanted to express that I didn't have any issues with our math debate...I think things like that are very useful, as is playtest practice, and I like seeing ideas hammered out concretely. My end of it was just trying to make sure we were talking about the same thing. Appreciate the discussion.

For the last couple pages of the thread, I'll just condense my thoughts on a number of things that came up, rather than individually quoting and responding. Upon writing it, it turned into a giant wall o text, so I might break it up a bit.

1) Someone mentioned Hive Tyrant + Swarmlord gives a guaranteed +2 to reserve for Pods/outflankers/etc. Absolutely not true when trying to deal with some of the shooting armies being discussed here. When going 2nd, I've certainly had both a Swarmlord and HT, both with Guard, burned down before my half of turn 2 rolled along. The more you reserve, the less there is to shoot at and the more likely your + to reserves will be dead before it's relevant.

2) To the comments about early charge threat: I absolutely agree. Genestealers are good stuff, whereas a Deepstriking Trygon (or Drop Podding CC elements) engage way too late to be a factor. I think Raveners are pretty strong, as was mentioned earlier, but the thing that kills me about them is the lack of Toxin and Adrenals. With all the random units that can buy those and barely need them (Mawloc? Carnifex?), it's a big letdown that the Ravener can't take either. It'd make for an awesome shock troop.

3) Going along with #2, I think too many people dismiss the Trygon because it's uneffective Deepstriking it. Maybe it pops up turn 2 and can assault turn 3. Maybe not even. On the other hand, starting a Trygon on the table adds one more target to the target saturation, and since it poses little immediate threat, it's probably not a super-high priority target. However, with Move Through Cover and Fleet, it has a reasonable chance at a turn 2 assault (or at least a threat they have to react to). Some people mentioned a lack of hard-hitting units when you actually reach a gunline, but the Trygon serves that bill. Also, with 7 attacks at S6 (maybe 7) MC with 2x scything talons, it can pull apart a heavy tank or vehicle squadron if there's nothing better to do with it. The Alpha upgrade is expensive, but taking away the chance for the Trygon to go out of control, as well as having Synapse coverage and Shadow driving for the opponent's lines, is a pretty big deal. And it's shooting attack ain't too shabby. I see Trygons and Raveners both having their best utility to be starting on the table and blitzing, rather than DSing.




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4) I haven't done enough testing of regular Stealers to make a definitive conclusion, but I can absolutely say that Ymgarl Stealers (hereafter "Yealers") are incredible. I've never been dissatisfied with them. If there's a sufficient amount of area terrain (and if you play anywhere that uses the terrain they made for 4th edition there should be plenty), then the Yealers give tons of tactical flexibility, can change the way your opponent moves or deploys, and gives you a huge threat radius. Set them up on an edge of area terrain, move through cover, fleet, charge...they can blaze a huge distance out of the terrain and do some damage. Totally worth their points, and never disappointing. If the terrain isn't there for it to work, you can always deploy them normally. I believe they still have Infiltrate (not positive there, book isn't with me), and they're still better Stealers, and you don't lose scoring units when they're targeted. Their only big downside brings me to my next point.

5) The Elite slot. Blugh. I'd gladly try to take 3 units of Zoeys in elite, 3 units of Hive Guard in Heavy, and 3 units of Yealers in Fast if it were an option. Taking Yealers decreases your ranged effectiveness, which hurts a lot, and makes your other Elites more valuable. Taking more than one unit of Yealers pretty much completely forces you into the position of a blitz list, as you no longer have the ranged firepower necessary to do anything other than run straight ahead. And against Chimera/RB/Rhino spam, you have the same issues of it being a waste to assault a transport with Yealers. But the best units to pop those open so the Yealers can get at the squads inside are in the same FOC slot. Grr.




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6) I know Shep has been leaning more heavily toward Zoanthropes over Hive Guard, and has several good reasons, but I have trouble getting past the devastating fire power that Hive Guard have. It's kind of a tossup to me...the (slightly) increased survivability of Zoeys, the way they draw fire off the MC's, the better ability to bust heavy tanks, the lack of need for cover, the Synapse and Shadow and lack of IB, and the AP3 blast are all very strong arguments for the Zoey. On the other hand, the quantity of high strength fire from the Guard, their longer range (on the high S shots at least), the ignoring intervening cover, the T6 (no ID, much lower rate of being hurt by S3/S4 fire), and the fact that they don't have to deal with anti-psyker stuff are all strong in favor of the Hive Guard. And the idea of Zoeys drawing fire away from MCs doesn't hold a lot of weight for me, since against heavy gunlines I want fire drawn away from my Hive Guard. They're my #1 go to unit in those situations. So if they get pulled for Zoeys, the fact that the Zoeys are now drawing the fire doesn't do much for me, since they just replaced the Hive Guard drawing the fire. I'm still experimenting with 3x Zoey 6x Hive Guard, and liking the mix. I do drop Onslaught on Zoeys occasionally, and really like it. But I'm all for it if 6x Zoey 3x Hive Guard proves to be the way to go.

7) Unrelated to the above, but I absolutely love the Tyranid Prime. I've run into issues with Synapse getting killed, so having a Synapse IC is amazing. Joins some warriors, maybe hangs out with T6 Hive Guard buddies, hops out and links up with a Carnifex, or just a big swarm of Termagants. Can be easily protected, and is a very good source of cheap Synapse. In lists where I don't bother with Swarmlord or Hive Tyrant, I usually just have the Prime as my one HQ, moving all the Tervigons to Troop. My general build is 2x Boneswords, Toxin, Adrenal for 110 points. Either leave the Devourers or go with Rending Claws for the case where he might take a swing at a vehicle. I've seen that guy singlehandedly slaughter 5 Nobz charging into a kitted Nob squad (ok, not totally single-handed, he had Preferred Enemy). When rolling with about 3 Warriors with dual Boneswords, Toxin and Adrenal, they are a murderous unit. And he's T5 for the stray S8/9 shot that comes their way. The Adrenal may be a bit overkill on him at times, but I like it. And he's proven surprisingly stout.

8) Hive Tyrants. I want to like them, but I just can't. Very expensive, super expensive to get a 2+ and even worse to get wings (and no way to get both). The dakka build lost Living Ammo AND went down to BS3. The Lashwhip+Bonesword combo is lame, as mentioned above. Base contact is easy to avoid, since he'll need a retinue to live through shooting, so the Lashwhip does little. And one Bonesword is fairly lame against a lot of targets. Give me the option for a pair of Boneswords on him. The Tyrant Guard are so expensive now. Probably need a minimum of 2 to ensure the Tyrant can do anything, so there's 120 if you take them bare bones (I give them Lashwhips so they at least contribute something), and people have mentioned that you really need 3 Guard to ensure the Tyrant's survival. There's an entire MC or unit of Zoeys/Hive Guard (more than the Hive Guard, actually). I can't understand how people can run dual-Tyrant armies, or Tyrant+Swarmlord. I like the synergies and interactions, but 250 to 300+ points just in Tyrant Guard? I just can't get behind it. I want to like the Tyrant, but there are just no configurations of him that strike me as being worth the price tag on him and his boys. The Swarmlord I like (though have trouble finding room in 1850), but I'm so-so on the Tyrant. Would love to see input from people who have had good luck with their Tyrants.



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Ok, splitting it up failed. Still turned into a giant wall o text. My bad.

Nothing wrong with a "wall of text". It shows you put some thought into things.

Shep wrote:

the real issue at hand with me is that I just don't think hive tyrants in general are worth fielding, so i should probably remove myself from the discussion. There are far too many TWC with storm shield or THSS termies in tourney play to spend 320 points on a walking CC unit that can't even beat a 200 point cavalry unit or LRC embarked unit.

Honestly I don't know how you guys are making those turds work

God, I agree 110% (see point 8 above).

Mahu wrote:And the Bonesword comes into play against most characters.

Well, "comes into play" maybe, but that doesn't mean it does anything. Against a whole lot of characters, all we're talking is a 1/12 chance to kill if it gets past the invul, barring the character being an EW anyway. So, really, it doesn't come into play against all that many characters. In fact, it's hard to think of things it works better against than ourselves! A Carnifex (or unit of them) sure doesn't want to get hit by it. Now, a pair of Boneswords, or Bonesabres, are another story altogether. But I have a hard time getting behind one Bonesword on a MC. Doesn't feel like it contributes anything the vast majority of the time.

I'm not totally anti-lash whip. But a power weapon on an MC that has a cutesy ability, and a base to base upgrade that should really only be helping your tyrant guard in almost all cases, isn't worth the opportunity cost of four and a half strength 6 hits, especially playing boxhammer 40k.

Just as you are not anti-Lashwhip, I am not Anti-Dual Devourers. But part of the arguement is cost. If I save 15 points on a Hive Tyrant that allows me to put onslaught on a Tervigon, what is more valuable to me?

Of the "free" options, I favor the Bonesword over another set of scything talons, especially on an Ancient Enemy Tyrant.

the real issue at hand with me is that I just don't think hive tyrants in general are worth fielding, so i should probably remove myself from the discussion. There are far too many TWC with storm shield or THSS termies in tourney play to spend 320 points on a walking CC unit that can't even beat a 200 point cavalry unit or LRC embarked unit.

Honestly I don't know how you guys are making those turds work

This may be just me, but I view the walking Hive Tyrant as a support unit first, and a CC unit second. I have waves and waves of Gaunts I can throw at other armies dedicated assault units, and I can play the attrition game a little better in that fashion.

The Hive Tyrant's primary purpose in my army is to lend Ancient enemy to the rest of my force and to use it's powers to assist my assaults.

Mahu wrote:

This may be just me, but I view the walking Hive Tyrant as a support unit first, and a CC unit second. I have waves and waves of Gaunts I can throw at other armies dedicated assault units, and I can play the attrition game a little better in that fashion.

The Hive Tyrant's primary purpose in my army is to lend Ancient enemy to the rest of my force and to use it's powers to assist my assaults.

I totally feel this way about the Tyrant. Absolutely. However, this is my sticking point too... lending Ancient Enemy and the occasional Paroxysm doesn't seem worth 185 (at the very least) plus (at least) 120 points of Guard. Maybe if he were survivable without Guard, or cheaper, or did more in the way of shooting/CC, I'd be more about him. But if I'm paying 300+ points for a force multiplier, he better be damn good. I do that with Fateweaver, but he's hard as nails to kill (usually) and has respectable damage output on top of being a support unit.

It seems like the main beneficiaries of the Tyrant support (esp. Ancient Enemy) in your army are the piles of Termagants, but you only have 20 + 2 Tervigons (so probably around 60ish in a game, and maybe not all at the same time). I could see him more in a list with a doom mob of 20 Termagants, or Hormagaunts, or a big pile of Gargoyles (rerolls + blinding poison seems really strong) or Genestealers. But my builds tend to look a lot like yours, and Preferred Enemy is nice, but it doesn't seem worth the cost in those armies.

Maybe I'm mistaken though. Do you feel like Ancient Enemy and the Powers allow him to pull his weight in your list? Clearly you're using him in another round of testing, so you think he has merit. Does giving the rerolls to a couple squads of Termagants really make that much difference?

I might reexamine the Ancient Enemy Tyrant in a list built to be more CC-oriented. Hormagaunts and Poison Stealers both seem like good candidates.

See, I think the exact opposite.

My thoughts are in a list that is relying almost exclusively on Gaunts and rippers to fight need all the help they can get to swing those combats in their favor.

Gaunts on their own are nothing to even think about.

Gaunts throwing 40 attacks with re-rolls to hit and to wound suddenly are., or at the very least are something that can cause that crazy assault unit to take enough casualties to where my Hive Tyrant and other MCs can play mop up.

I agree that 5 TH/SS Terminators will take out a Hive Tyrant in a round of assault, but will 2? That is what I am talking about with war of attrition, I can make more Gaunts, the Space Marine player cannot make more Terminators.

I think that the utility of Rippers might be in blocking emergency disembarkation from transports, rather than doing anything dangerous themselves.

Definatelly agree with nurglith, block all ways out then pop him, then orks cant get out

Good luck, you have to completely surround the transport, because if you don't they emergency disembark and still shoot you up the next turn.

Yeah, that's why you use Rippers: They have 40mm bases, and they just need to cover what the Genestealers, or what have you, don't. Or use Hormagaunts if you really need reliable speed. Or Gargoyles.

I am not discounting it as an option, I just don't think it is a bankable option. Not unless you build lists that rely on a crap ton of models, and are confident enough that those numbers will not only reach the target with sufficient numbers to spare, but can wreck the tank in a turn.

My feeling is that you are relying too much on a "confluence of events", which in my experience rarely transpires.

Rippers have and always will be about distraction. They are a cheap throw away unit that can tie up units in a never ending assault, and dare gun lines to have to deal with them.

Mahu:

Obviously it's not easy to destroy a unit during emergency disembarkation, but given your (or Shep's) points about the difficulty of first destroying a vehicle and then getting shot up by the disembarked unit, clearly destroying both when you attack the vehicle is good, right? In fact managing to destroy two units in one seems to be a pay-off that would make up for the difficulty in accomplishing it.

I am not saying that if that situation happens it is a bad thing. I agree that it is a very good thing.

What I am arguing is that you are still relying on a series of events going in your favor to pull it off. It's not a reliable strategy.

Maybe as something to keep in the back of your mind while you are playing a game as an option, but not something to develop a whole battle plan around.

Mahu wrote:I am not discounting it as an option, I just don't think it is a bankable option. Not unless you build lists that rely on a crap ton of models, and are confident enough that those numbers will not only reach the target with sufficient numbers to spare, but can wreck the tank in a turn.

My feeling is that you are relying too much on a "confluence of events", which in my experience rarely transpires.

Rippers have and always will be about distraction. They are a cheap throw away unit that can tie up units in a never ending assault, and dare gun lines to have to deal with them.

please dont start this again, Nurglitch will show you his math and theory on this sort of "luck" affair one more time, it's unbearable

Mahu,

Yes, I know you're arguing that it's an unreliable strategy. The question is: is it more unreliable than trying to shoot units out of vehices? Is it effective enough to make the additional risk worth it?

Nurglitch, in my opinion, no.

Most of my lists have plenty of anti-infantry, whether it be cluster spines, Guants, etc.

For me, it is substantially better to have an infantry squad be without a transport walking towards me to get their special weapons in range, then for me to bum rush a guard line with massed numbers hoping to kill a few tanks and guys inside but suffer the retribution of all that is left.

One of the primary things I noticed in my recent test games against Guard was that I was able to survive much longer if I kept their special weapons at a distance.

The other issue about blocking emergency disembarkation points is the fact that if you explode the vehicle instead of wrecking it, you suddenly may have yourself a lively little debate about whether there's room to place all the guys or other little things. If you play by the INAT it clarifies that kind of stuff, but you're still back in the same situation of destroying the transport and the squad is still right there. And since Stealers vs. back AV10 can only Pen, you have almost the same chance to explode the vehicle as to wreck it.

I think that more than anything else limits the utility of using Rippers to block hatches. Not only is it tough to do an requires committing multiple units...it may not even accomplish anything and now your Rippers are just sitting there doing nothing for that turn.


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Mahu wrote:See, I think the exact opposite.

My thoughts are in a list that is relying almost exclusively on Gaunts and rippers to fight need all the help they can get to swing those combats in their favor.

Gaunts on their own are nothing to even think about.

Gaunts throwing 40 attacks with re-rolls to hit and to wound suddenly are., or at the very least are something that can cause that crazy assault unit to take enough casualties to where my Hive Tyrant and other MCs can play mop up.

I agree that 5 TH/SS Terminators will take out a Hive Tyrant in a round of assault, but will 2? That is what I am talking about with war of attrition, I can make more Gaunts, the Space Marine player cannot make more Terminators.

That's very true. But my question was, does that support allow the Tyrant to pull his weight? If you remove the 300+ points of Tyrant and Guard, perhaps you could put something in that can fight, so your list doesn't have to rely on Guants and Rippers to fight. If it were the case that the Tyrant is pretty awesome in general and Ancient Enemy is just icing, then it's obviously worth the 25 points. But I feel like the Tyrant is subpar, so I wonder whether his support of your other units' CC is stronger than just adding in more CC. After all, for the cost of a naked Tyrant+2 naked Guard+Ancient Enemy, you could buy a Prime with Boneswords, Toxin, and Devourers, and 4 Warriors with Boneswords, Adrenal, Toxin, and Devourers. You'd have a fairly brutal CC unit with power weapons that cause instant death, rerolls to wound, high initiative (esp on the charge) and high WS, and 15 BS4 Devourer shots, plus more Synapse creatures including a Synapse IC that can go hide with a different squad, and an extra scoring unit. You lose the Tyrant powers, (which I like, but they're nothing Earth-shattering), and you lose combat effectiveness on your little dudes, but you pick up more shooting and more combat effectiveness on your big dudes. And that unit has a decent shot of killing 5 THSS before they get to swing if you get the charge (or possibly making them break and run on a Ld 8 test, though that would require them to be unlucky on saves against the Devourers, but it can happen). Alternatively, you could pick up about 18 Toxin Genestealers. So there's another 1-2 scoring units that don't need Synapse, and they would average out dropping about 6 THSS on the charge by themselves.

Just my 2 cents. I definitely feel you about the lack of an ability for throw-away units like Termgs and Rippers to fight hard targets, but is the answer to buff the little guys or bring in some muscle?

Great report. The ork army looks great.