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Scottywan82 wrote:
Fixed that for you. lol, Honestly I see your point, but this IS something people clamor for. I think at this point, GW should just finish up the lines they have, and then fill their releases with things like this, allowing for updates of existing models as they become outdated. That way the codex/army book releases become less... tumultuous. They only need to release the "new" figures they included in the army book and the rest of the time, their release schedule will just be filled with awesome things, even if they are - strictly speaking - repeats of existing figures (ie, Pre Heresy Terminators are the same as regular terminators).

I just mean that they really shouldn't continue this pace of preheresy releases too much longer. If they want to draw it out across months, after this point, so that more of the releases each month can be something non-marine that would be better than all marine all the time. Don't we get enough of that as it is? I've thought that they should just start cutting back on IG, but shifting the focus over to SM doesn't help the fact that some armies are under represented in their line of models.

The fact this isn't attached to a particular IA book yet also makes me wonder what their future plans are. I think FW shouldn't spend too much time focusing on broad releases as much fleshing out less represented yet popular factions. I think how they've done the Tau is a good example of that, but it could even be applied to putting focus on specific chapters of note or more niche armies that benefit from the boutique attention . For example, GW made it clear they had no interest in Chaos Renegades (LatD), Ad. Mech, and Ordo Xenos/Deathwatch. FW did one and they could do the others; we know people would eat them up. FW should be more thematic in their releases and maybe preheresy is a different sort of thematic approach for FW but it only has so much longevity and will tend to only retread stories we already know.

Alpharius wrote:Scottywan82 says it all...

I just hope FW/GW are listening!

Dude, one day when I crack anti-gravity technology and become a gazillionaire, we'll just run GW. I think we're running along parallel tracks here.


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aka_mythos wrote:I just mean that they really shouldn't continue this pace of preheresy releases too much longer. If they want to draw it out across months, after this point, so that more of the releases each month can be something non-marine that would be better than all marine all the time. Don't we get enough of that as it is? I've thought that they should just start cutting back on IG, but shifting the focus over to SM doesn't help the fact that some armies are under represented in their line of models.

But what I'm asking is, why couldn't they? So they put out pre-heresy armor for each mark for space marines. How does this impede their space marine sales? It really doesn't. The mark up on FW is much higher than on GW, so there's money to be made here. And we WANT IT. So give it to us until we stop wanting it. Make all the existing stuff but pre-heresy. As far as once a week goes, yeah, maybe not just because of production limitations, but otherwise, cram it in there!

they want money, we want to give it to them for pre-heresy models. This is a win-win. They should milk it for all it's worth. Pretty much every space marine option exists already The only way to keep making new money on SMs is to make other figures we want. so either A) new units or B) New models for existing units. This way it costs them NOTHING in play-testers, rules writing, book binding, etc (all of which you would need to have IN ADDITION to the model costs for a new unit). It's more profit for them!

aka_mythos wrote:The fact this isn't attached to a particular IA book yet also makes me wonder what their future plans are. I think FW shouldn't spend too much time focusing on broad releases as much fleshing out less represented yet popular factions. I think how they've done the Tau is a good example of that, but it could even be applied to putting focus on specific chapters of note or more niche armies that benefit from the boutique attention . For example, GW made it clear they had no interest in Chaos Renegades (LatD), Ad. Mech, and Ordo Xenos/Deathwatch. FW did one and they could do the others; we know people would eat them up. FW should be more thematic in their releases and maybe pre-heresy is a different sort of thematic approach for FW but it only has so much longevity and will tend to only retread stories we already know.

Once again, this doesn't need to be tied to ANYTHING. This is just more SM models. New ones, pretty ones. And we can't buy them second hand. We HAVE to pay GW for them. They can't NOT make money.

what they do for Tau is fantastic, I agree, and I would love to see some FW models for other empty slots in my IG army. But if they do that and it takes off then GW will snatch it and make them plastic (good for us, bad for FW) and then FW will need to make something else. Better they instead make - I dunno - alternate IG infantry models. Like DKoK.

Or alternates for other units! Conversion pieces that we can only really use alongside existing GW plastics. This is where their money is, and where we want to spend it. conversion kits for Vendettas. For Tyrannofexes. For the Swarmlord. For Dual TW bonswords. For Autrarchs. For Sweet looking Kommandos. For Psyker Battle Squads. For Chaos IG. This costs them nothing in rules, will BY NECESSITY be a proxy for something else and therefore cannot be "Squatted," and looks freaking awesome!

So please, FW. Keep making random awesome things. Please make them for existing armies and even existing models. If you would be so kind, could you eventually provide us with models to make alternate versions of every army? That would be hot, thanks.

Also, some (most? all?) of this "Pre-Heresy" armor IS tied to an IA book.

At least, that's what I heard.

Though now the timing of it all throws that into doubt.

Still, more Pre-Heresy suits, yeah!

Maybe it will be tied to a IA web supplement for more win?

Alpharius wrote:Also, some (most? all?) of this "Pre-Heresy" armor IS tied to an IA book.

At least, that's what I heard.

Though now the timing of it all throws that into doubt.

Still, more Pre-Heresy suits, yeah!

Have heard absolutely nothing of it myself, so it's kinda sketchy.

badab war, confirmed by shroud over on the great crusade

poipo32 wrote:Maybe it will be tied to a IA web supplement for more win?

Mebbe it'll be tied to a Horus Heresy hardcover book...

Scottywan82 wrote: But what I'm asking is, why couldn't they? So they put out pre-heresy armor for each mark for space marines. How does this impede their space marine sales? It really doesn't. The mark up on FW is much higher than on GW, so there's money to be made here. And we WANT IT. So give it to us until we stop wanting it. Make all the existing stuff but pre-heresy. As far as once a week goes, yeah, maybe not just because of production limitations, but otherwise, cram it in there!

they want money, we want to give it to them for pre-heresy models. This is a win-win. They should milk it for all it's worth. Pretty much every space marine option exists already The only way to keep making new money on SMs is to make other figures we want. so either A) new units or B) New models for existing units. This way it costs them NOTHING in play-testers, rules writing, book binding, etc (all of which you would need to have IN ADDITION to the model costs for a new unit). It's more profit for them!

Its about balancing scarce and limited resources with artistic value. I'm not saying they don't do them. I'm saying they change the pacing to allow for other releases.
The mark up on FW is higher, but so is the work and materials that go into it. The FW stuff is more expensive because of those two things more than just the margin. That relatively high margin is there because the quantities of sales aren't there to justify alternate production means.

Its the same old arguement, GW is all marines all the time, creating a self fulfilling prophecy of good sales that self justify the perpetuation of a policy that is potentially detrimental to the hobby in the long run. I'm not saying they don't do them. I'm saying they change the pacing to allow for some other releases.

Scottywan82 wrote:
...So please, FW. Keep making random awesome things. Please make them for existing armies and even existing models. If you would be so kind, could you eventually provide us with models to make alternate versions of every army? That would be hot, thanks.

Thats exactly what I'm saying. Its just that I'm trying to get people to understand that these things happening are restricted by relatively scarce resources.

Alpharius wrote:

cadbren wrote:Well now that they've produced those older style weapons, will they continue with the other heavy weapons and maybe a conversion beamer too?
What would be nice is an updated mk1 Rhino.

Now THAT is a good idea!

When we're all ordering our Pre-Heresy stuff, we should put that in the "suggestions/wish list" section!

Chapterhouse studios make a MK1 Rhino conversion kit.. $16 IIRC.. I have 3. Looks VERY nice. I will have to post pics.. I am using them for Exorcist conversions..

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:badab war, confirmed by shroud over on the great crusade

Uhhuh, and who is Shroud?

Because the next Imperial Armour book is, from everything I've seen and heard, the follow-up to IA8 and the remainder of the Ork Klans.

Pretty sure they weren't involved in The Badab War, at all. In any way, shape, or form.

I've heard the same thing.

"Shroudfilm" is an admin (owner?) over at The Great Crusade, a GREAT Pre-Heresy forum.

http://z15.invisionfree.com/The_Great_Crusade/index.php?&

He also works closely with BL on their BL TV segments.

So...

BL TV Segments?

Alpharius wrote:I've heard the same thing.

"Shroudfilm" is an admin (owner?) over at The Great Crusade, a GREAT Pre-Heresy forum.

http://z15.invisionfree.com/The_Great_Crusade/index.php?&

He also works closely with BL on their BL TV segments.

So...

owner, and i trust his info

Lord of battles wrote:BL TV Segments?

Those interviews.

Alpharius wrote:I've heard the same thing.

"Shroudfilm" is an admin (owner?) over at The Great Crusade, a GREAT Pre-Heresy forum.

http://z15.invisionfree.com/The_Great_Crusade/index.php?&

He also works closely with BL on their BL TV segments.

So...

Then it goes completely against anything and everything Forge World has been working on.

Of course, there's always the possibility that the models were released to test the waters for a book after IA9.

The Ram looks a tad OP, judging by the rules... a 36" movement assault vehicle with a 5+ invuln, possible cover save and AV13 front armour?!

Kanluwen wrote:

Alpharius wrote:I've heard the same thing.

"Shroudfilm" is an admin (owner?) over at The Great Crusade, a GREAT Pre-Heresy forum.

http://z15.invisionfree.com/The_Great_Crusade/index.php?&

He also works closely with BL on their BL TV segments.

So...

Then it goes completely against anything and everything Forge World has been working on.

Of course, there's always the possibility that the models were released to test the waters for a book after IA9.

but remember they did it to chaos by only including nurgle and khorne in IA books and leaving the other two out, so the same could and most likely will happen to the orks

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Alpharius wrote:I've heard the same thing.

"Shroudfilm" is an admin (owner?) over at The Great Crusade, a GREAT Pre-Heresy forum.

http://z15.invisionfree.com/The_Great_Crusade/index.php?&

He also works closely with BL on their BL TV segments.

So...

Then it goes completely against anything and everything Forge World has been working on.

Of course, there's always the possibility that the models were released to test the waters for a book after IA9.

but remember they did it to chaos by only including nurgle and khorne in IA books and leaving the other two out, so the same could and most likely will happen to the orks

Wouldn't it be after IA10?
Because if I recall correctly the agreed schedule was:

IA9: Raid on Kastorel-Novem (part 2) with the remaining ork klans and more raven guardy goodness.

then...

IA10: Eldar + 1 other, with release slots for the Phantom Titan that was shown during the FW open day.

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Alpharius wrote:I've heard the same thing.

"Shroudfilm" is an admin (owner?) over at The Great Crusade, a GREAT Pre-Heresy forum.

http://z15.invisionfree.com/The_Great_Crusade/index.php?&

He also works closely with BL on their BL TV segments.

So...

Then it goes completely against anything and everything Forge World has been working on.

Of course, there's always the possibility that the models were released to test the waters for a book after IA9.

but remember they did it to chaos by only including nurgle and khorne in IA books and leaving the other two out, so the same could and most likely will happen to the orks

Actually, they never planned on doing Tzeentch or Slaanesh in the Vraks campaign books--so they "didn't leave the other two out".

They followed y'know...their plan.

Aren't we due the next FW Newsletter soon-ish?

I want the full details on the MKV set, as well as the MKIII (?) "HG" sets!

Friday chaps, Friday.

aka_mythos wrote:Its about balancing scarce and limited resources with artistic value. I'm not saying they don't do them. I'm saying they change the pacing to allow for other releases.
The mark up on FW is higher, but so is the work and materials that go into it. The FW stuff is more expensive because of those two things more than just the margin. That relatively high margin is there because the quantities of sales aren't there to justify alternate production means.

I agree they need to balance them, but against what? Against the opportunity cost of not making... something we don't want? I just don't see hwy you would urge caution to a manufacturer who is manufacturing an item in demand. You know why MTG brings out a new set every quarter? Because there's a sucker born every minute. No, sorry, bad joke.

But honestly, as long as we eat it up, they should make it. The margins (what I had poorly referred to as mark-up) on the products will keep FW in business making more awesome stuff GW has no time for (THERE is an opportunity cost well invested. I mean GW's). And the price (total end price, in dollars out of my pocket) means it will never replace GW's core products. New kid will still buy the Tactical Squad. Alpharius will have already bought 20 Tactical squads and will proceed to buy 20 more, but now in Maximus Armor and wielding Umbra Pattern weapons. So GW wins twice.

aka_mythos wrote:Its the same old arguement, GW is all marines all the time, creating a self fulfilling prophecy of good sales that self justify the perpetuation of a policy that is potentially detrimental to the hobby in the long run. I'm not saying they don't do them. I'm saying they change the pacing to allow for some other releases.

Thats exactly what I'm saying. Its just that I'm trying to get people to understand that these things happening are restricted by relatively scarce resources.

It is absolutely self-fulfilling! But we buy, so the make. If you are arguing we shouldn't buy SM figures... Then no one can help you. Because we buy pretty shiny things, and SM and both pretty AND shiny. Revel in this, mythos. The reason you should? Because every dollar GW makes increases - however incrementally - that one day you will get your non-SM figure made.

They are the grease that keeps the gears turning. And the longer they turn... well, to mix metaphors, think infinite monkeys and infinite typewriters. Eventually they will get to your army. Statistics is on your side.


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porkuslime wrote:

Alpharius wrote:

cadbren wrote:Well now that they've produced those older style weapons, will they continue with the other heavy weapons and maybe a conversion beamer too?
What would be nice is an updated mk1 Rhino.

Now THAT is a good idea!

When we're all ordering our Pre-Heresy stuff, we should put that in the "suggestions/wish list" section!

Chapterhouse studios make a MK1 Rhino conversion kit.. $16 IIRC.. I have 3. Looks VERY nice. I will have to post pics.. I am using them for Exorcist conversions..

Any pictures of one built? I have to say all of their stuff just looks so... blobby. And poorly cast. So I'm always scared of it.

Scottywan82 wrote:
I agree they need to balance them, but against what? Against the opportunity cost of not making... something we don't want? I just don't see hwy you would urge caution to a manufacturer who is manufacturing an item in demand. You know why MTG brings out a new set every quarter?...
It is absolutely self-fulfilling! But we buy, so the make. If you are arguing we shouldn't buy SM figures... Then no one can help you. Because we buy pretty shiny things, and SM and both pretty AND shiny. Revel in this, mythos. The reason you should? Because every dollar GW makes increases - however incrementally - that one day you will get your non-SM figure made.

I understand the economics of the situation, in this instance I'm saying they should have as diversified a product offering as possible. The simple fact is in a situation where there is as much demand as you say the prudent business decision is to increase staff to meet that demand. Yes if GW wants FW to they can become all marines all the time, but even that aside there are more benefits to a protracted release of the SM FW products.

Scottywan82 wrote:
They are the grease that keeps the gears turning. And the longer they turn... well, to mix metaphors, think infinite monkeys and infinite typewriters. Eventually they will get to your army. Statistics is on your side.

This is not about should or shouldn't just pacing. "As you said the longer they turn," the better... to go with your analogy, I'm hoping FW doesn't burn out their gears with these and run out of worthwhile SM while simultaneously leaving the fan base of other races feeling ignored. Its fine short term business, but has potentially poor long term implications.

porkuslime wrote:

Alpharius wrote:

cadbren wrote:Well now that they've produced those older style weapons, will they continue with the other heavy weapons and maybe a conversion beamer too?
What would be nice is an updated mk1 Rhino.

Now THAT is a good idea!

When we're all ordering our Pre-Heresy stuff, we should put that in the "suggestions/wish list" section!

Chapterhouse studios make a MK1 Rhino conversion kit.. $16 IIRC.. I have 3. Looks VERY nice. I will have to post pics.. I am using them for Exorcist conversions..

Just looked at it, makes for a nice conversion but it's no mk1 as is still relies on the current Rhino chassis. It's like the FW mk1 Land Raider conversion pack, it still uses the current Raider as a base so will never look like the early Raider. Unless of course the design is retconned to look more like the newer version but getting OT.

But this pacing is fine. How much work do you think goes into each Mark suit?

Seriously? 1 torso, 1 head, 2 pairs of legs, 1 set of arms, and 1 backpack.

Per Mark. Most of it built on existing frames.

And they sell 5 at a time. To a plurality of 40K players, most of whom have a Marine army. Compare that with the work for the recent Ork Mek. That single kit probably took as long as all of their Mark sets combined, plus the Caestus. And what do you think sold the most?

The Marks. Of course they did. And they are going to sell more every week.

And then next year, if FW wants, they can do some other Marks, or some artificer armour, or some Terminator Marks.

And then...back to Chaos power armor (two Powers down, two to go, not counting Chaos Undivided)

Marine releases don't just satisfy the highest percentage of the 40K fanbase, they probably have the highest work to profit realized ratio. Meaning they probably keep the company doing well while they spend a year sculpting a Greater Daemon that doesn't make the profit the Marks will in the first month in it's entire run.

Both companies will always make Marines. The lines will never be complete for the same reason that Ford still makes the Mustang. The Marine lines are the bread and butter, and so there will be new Marine releases every year, from GW and Forge World. Some years might be bigger or smaller, but there will always be new power armor. It's not show friends...it's show business.

On another note, I hadn't seen FWs SM jump packs before and they are very nice with those crash bars on them, never thought of the jump packs as looking like that before. I wish GW could redesign theirs to have the bars glued on rather than being cast on.

cadbren wrote:On another note, I hadn't seen FWs SM jump packs before and they are very nice with those crash bars on them, never thought of the jump packs as looking like that before. I wish GW could redesign theirs to have the bars glued on rather than being cast on.

I'm not sure what you're describing here - pics/links?

Alpharius wrote:

cadbren wrote:On another note, I hadn't seen FWs SM jump packs before and they are very nice with those crash bars on them, never thought of the jump packs as looking like that before. I wish GW could redesign theirs to have the bars glued on rather than being cast on.

I'm not sure what you're describing here - pics/links?

This maybe? How they seem more prominent than one the regular Space Marine Jump Packs?

Better angle in this pic.




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Heck, how did I miss these guys before?



Plain versions of the Red Scorpions.


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Ahh, here's the pic I was actually looking for:




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One last pic and a question:


What is the marine, second from the right holding? Is that another bolter type that is yet to be released because it looks like an updated version of the bolter that came between the Umbra and Godwyn patterns.

It's another bolter, probably to come out with the MK5