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wyomingfox wrote:

Adam LongWalker wrote:Cruddace Wrote a codex...A codex that kept the theme of the previous codex. To me this is the first codex in a very long time that I did not have to shelf models away because of nerfing/removing models from one of my armies. I am going to buy MORE models not because that I need to make my army competitive again, because I WANT too buy more models because they are beautiful and will fit my theme.

That...doesn't sound like the tyranid codex at all . With Cruddace you either get a real beat stick or a something very arbitrary. With Ward you reliably get strong rule sets. Hell, you even get properly costed MC.

Think he was referring to Tomb Kings codex
The odd thing about Tomb Kings is that i have heard next to no discussion about them anywhere, about the quality of it or anything
Its really odd

Asuron wrote:

wyomingfox wrote:

Adam LongWalker wrote:Cruddace Wrote a codex...A codex that kept the theme of the previous codex. To me this is the first codex in a very long time that I did not have to shelf models away because of nerfing/removing models from one of my armies. I am going to buy MORE models not because that I need to make my army competitive again, because I WANT too buy more models because they are beautiful and will fit my theme.

That...doesn't sound like the tyranid codex at all . With Cruddace you either get a real beat stick or a something very arbitrary. With Ward you reliably get strong rule sets. Hell, you even get properly costed MC.

Think he was referring to Tomb Kings codex
The odd thing about Tomb Kings is that i have heard next to no discussion about them anywhere, about the quality of it or anything
Its really odd

Well you've got Skeletons and you've got Grey Knights. What d'you think's gonna be more interesting?

Here's an idea about the transports, what if they are portal exits?

Basically you can walk into a Monolith and exit from the transport. Basically working the same was as the portal gun in Portal.
This would both be fluff and fit the Necrons better than a regular transport with transport capacity.

As for Wards fluff, basically the GK codex confirms that the Sisters of Battle are more pure than the GKs themselves. From the new fluff it would be safe to say the Sisters are better suited to fighting daemons than the GKs are, even without the special training the GKs receive of which only 1 in a million survive.
I'm sure the imperium could pump out millions of sisters to fight daemons easily, all they would need is some new wargear to better help them and some updates to their training.

Not sure if serious...

Kanluwen wrote:And with Tyranid players you get a sense of entitlement that is ridiculous. Tyranids were powerful in their previous incarnation. Things were toned down. They are still powerful, but now require a modicum of skill that was previously unnecessary.

True, Tyranids were toned down compared to thier 4th and 3rd edition codices, however, the other fifth edition codices were massively reboosted thanks to the internal bias in the 5th edition BRB towards both vehicles and wound allocation combined with either the reduced cost structure of vehicles or the boost in its powers found in the codices themselves. The result is an edition that favors 3 pinnacles: vehicles (tanks, walkers, and transports), massive ammounts of cheap anti-tank ranged weoponry scattered throughout the organization chart (especially if you can stick them in a transport), and wound allocation. So SW, IG, Orcs, and BA taking the top ranking at tournies are common. Tyranids, however, do not lend themselves well to either of these pinnacles.

Now, can Tyranids still win. Yes, under a superior general who makes little to no mistakes and doesn't suffer poor dice rolls, Tyranids can win. Hulksmash's crusade shows proof to that. But then, I know outstanding generals in Madison and La Crosse who can win with Tau and Necrons. Do we want to imply that just because you can win, that your army is on even footings with SW and the pelethera of powerfull mechanized armies that IG, Orcs, and BA can bring to bear?

Personally, I have no reason to doubt that Necrons will be getting transports as it is a very easy way to increase thier effectiveness in 5th edition and follows the established trend, a trend that I personally despise - though I fully acknowledge that I am in a minority.

In my humble opinion, resculpting most of the models and introducing tonnes of new vehicles is going to make the army unattractive to new players, as Marines look to be cheaper and quite probably more powerful. It is also going to be unattractive to Vets, as a lot of models are now replaced, or their tactics will be changed because of the new units. If these rumours pan out, PM me if you want 3000 points of old style Necrons, 'cos my metal tomb dwellers will die their final death on my battlefields.

wyomingfox wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:And with Tyranid players you get a sense of entitlement that is ridiculous. Tyranids were powerful in their previous incarnation. Things were toned down. They are still powerful, but now require a modicum of skill that was previously unnecessary.

True, Tyranids were toned down compared to thier 4th and 3rd edition codices, however, the other fifth edition codices were massively reboosted thanks to the internal bias in the 5th edition BRB towards both vehicles and wound allocation combined with either the reduced cost structure of vehicles or the boost in its powers found in the codices themselves. The result is an edition that favors 3 pinnacles: vehicles (tanks, walkers, and transports), massive amounts of cheap anti-tank ranged weaponry scattered throughout the organization chart (especially if you can stick them in a transport), and wound allocation. So SW, IG, Orcs, and BA taking the top ranking at tournies are common. Tyranids, however, do not lend themselves well to either of these pinnacles.

Now, can Tyranids still win. Yes, under a superior general who makes little to no mistakes and doesn't suffer poor dice rolls, Tyranids can win. Hulksmash's crusade shows proof to that. But then, I know outstanding generals in Madison and La Crosse who can win with Tau and Necrons. Do we want to imply that just because you can win, that your army is on even footings with SW and the plethora of powerful mechanized armies that IG, Orcs, and BA can bring to bear?

Which isn't what I 'implied' at all. It was that times change, things get toned down, and it needs to be accepted.

Now, are Tyranids slightly underpowered in the grand scheme of things? Sure. But that's really in a tournament setting. Cruddace writes books that trend more towards the 'casual' gamer. When not fighting tourney lists, 'Nids can do just fine.

Personally, I have no reason to doubt that Necrons will be getting transports as it is a very easy way to increase their effectiveness in 5th edition and follows the established trend, a trend that I personally despise - though I fully acknowledge that I am in a minority.

It wasn't a 'newly established trend'. It's not like mech armies were impossible before this edition. They just weren't as effective.

Back on topic though:
Necrons getting transport is not only "following an established trend"--but it's kind of about time that they get a transport that isn't the Monolith.

tesla should be relevent in every era!

First post so forgive me for ranting, Before I get really hacked off with what's being done to the Necrons I would like to see the stat line, I did read somewhere that they were going to be along the lines of Orks but a better save. As for the change to WBB it's clearly not FNP, but I think I would prefer it if it were. I like WBB as it is, not wanting to be wish_listing but maybe the res orb rules should be tweaked.

Scarey Nerd wrote:In my humble opinion, resculpting most of the models and introducing tonnes of new vehicles is going to make the army unattractive to new players, as Marines look to be cheaper and quite probably more powerful. It is also going to be unattractive to Vets, as a lot of models are now replaced, or their tactics will be changed because of the new units. If these rumours pan out, PM me if you want 3000 points of old style Necrons, 'cos my metal tomb dwellers will die their final death on my battlefields.

I don't know, it seemed to work pretty well for the Dark Eldar Codex.


I don't understand all this doom and gloom. These rumors, if true, are barely a foot note in the entire codex. I think people going into doomsday mode need to relax, and honestly people saying they are going to get rid of their army, based on a small selection of rumors before even getting a glance into the codex is beyond silly.

Necrons

Jump Infantry

Transports

My brain is trying but i can't associate these words together. I'm all for reinventing stuff to make it fresh and cool, but only if the original spirit is preserved. I'll withhold judgement til there's more info but right now I'm just not seeing it.

rabidaskal wrote:Necrons

Jump Infantry

Transports

My brain is trying but i can't associate these words together. I'm all for reinventing stuff to make it fresh and cool, but only if the original spirit is preserved. I'll withhold judgement til there's more info but right now I'm just not seeing it.

Every army adapts, or is slaughtered.
Every General adapts, or dies.

What's more, the Necrons have barely shown a fraction of their force, with "newer" and "better" (ie, more powerful) Necrontyr presenting themselves as more/bigger Tomb Worlds awaken. I can totally accept new units, although I agree that there is a certain point where the 'feel' of an army is lost and it ruins the entire thing.

Kanluwen wrote:

wyomingfox wrote:
Personally, I have no reason to doubt that Necrons will be getting transports as it is a very easy way to increase their effectiveness in 5th edition and follows the established trend, a trend that I personally despise - though I fully acknowledge that I am in a minority.

It wasn't a 'newly established trend'. It's not like mech armies were impossible before this edition. They just weren't as effective.
.

Erm.. at the risk of sounding like an objectionable twonk, you need to look up the meaning of 'trend' and 'newly established' there I think.

Although I agree with your sentiments that the Nid codex is fine against anyone other than the handful who are at the top of tournaments, you have to cater for the majority, and in that sense I think the biggest issues with that codex are the number of unreleased models, rather than it not being regarded as 'top tier'.

Pacific wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

wyomingfox wrote:
Personally, I have no reason to doubt that Necrons will be getting transports as it is a very easy way to increase their effectiveness in 5th edition and follows the established trend, a trend that I personally despise - though I fully acknowledge that I am in a minority.

It wasn't a 'newly established trend'. It's not like mech armies were impossible before this edition. They just weren't as effective.

Erm.. at the risk of sounding like an objectionable twonk, you need to look up the meaning of 'trend' and 'newly established' there I think.

'Newly established trend' fits perfectly if the trend is newly established with this edition

The idea that transports being given to Necrons as a way to increase their effectiveness in 5th edition "following an established trend" is what I was pointing out as the fallacy there.
Mech guard, marines, orks, etc were completely doable before 5th edition. There was nothing given to them that could be construed as an "established trend".

I think that clears it up a bit more, but I may have to rework the phrasing later.

Although I agree with your sentiments that the Nid codex is fine against anyone other than the handful who are at the top of tournaments, you have to cater for the majority, and in that sense I think the biggest issues with that codex are the number of unreleased models, rather than it not being regarded as 'top tier'.

Which is definitely not the same as "the codex is weak!".

Kroothawk wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Does Matt Ward deserve the amount of hatred he recieves?
No, not really.
Has Matt Ward ever written an entirely broken set of fluff?
No.
Has Matt Ward ever written an entirely broken set of rules?
No.

Has Matt Ward ever written an entirely broken set of rules?
Yes, Daemons of Chaos army book. Singlehandedly ended fair competitive play in 7th edition.
Fixed with 8th edition rules, whose magic makes fair competitive play nearly impossible with all other armies as well.

Has Matt Ward ever written an entirely broken set of fluff?
Grey Knights Codex. Draigo.
Grey Knight planet hiding in the warp.
Grey Knights resisting the temptation of the Blood God by slaughtering Sororitas and bathing in their blood.
Making them work for all Inquisition branches.
Making an Inquisition force legal that consists almost completely of Xenos, non-communicative and non-controllable Xenos to be precise (with no explanation deemed necessary).

Does Matt Ward deserve the amount of hatred he recieves?
Well, he honestly earned some of it

Well, to start with that's Fantasy, this is 40k. If you want to go and complain about Matt Wards efforts in WHFB, go and discuss it in said forum, but this is 40k Background.

Again, Draigo is the only over the top gak in the codex.
Why is the planet hiding in the Warp for protection against the Horus Heresy a bad bit? First time I've seen someone complain.
They don't slaughter and there is no bathing in blood.
They're still the militant forces of the Ordo Malleus. They can join up with other forces form the Inquisition, but they are never described a serving the Inquisition as a whole.
How is that possible? Explain.

I'm not defending the man, he has made several quite bad decisions, Draigo, saying many First Founding Chapters aspire to be the Ultramarines and writing a story about Blood Angles teaming up with Necrons in the Blood Angles own codex are the three fluff related ones. Deep-striking Land Raiders and the dominating effectiveness of psycannons being the two rules that stand out.

gotta say i was pissed when i heard about the sisters thing. i didnt read the fluff for the gk and still havent because that news pissed me off that much. i love sisters and if gw uses that bull as reason to remove sisters, i just might quit. it made no sense. so far i havent liked any of his 40k fluff.

the parts of the ba codex i like are all stuff iv read about from the heresy anyway. o and the omnibus

i love sisters

Do go on.

and if gw uses that bull as reason to remove sisters, i just might quit.

Someone finally figured out that the new background story for the Grey Knights was set-up for permanently discontinuing the entire Sisters Of Battle model range.

BrassScorpion wrote:

i love sisters

Do go on.

and if gw uses that bull as reason to remove sisters, i just might quit.

Someone finally figured out that the new background story for the Grey Knights was set-up for discontinuing the entire Sisters Of Battle model range.

hey im serious. its the only army i actually love. i dont really know why this happens, but i only like female characters. i cant get into games very often unless i can use female characters, and its not a sex thing. the only reason iv come up with over the years is the females are usually long range, bows or magic.

anyway, IF its true. thats just some bull. seriously, wtf! god i can feel the nerdrage boiling. this is bad, i need a break... wheres my copy of kotor <_<

The shark! It has finally been jumped on the whole Mat Ward hate thing!

Seriously. That story is not "an excuse for removing Sisters".

It has been stated, multiple times by Jes Goodwin that he is working on the Sisters range. Phil Kelly has stated multiple times that he is writing the book.
There's also a novel and audiobook slated for release in the not so distant future about the Sisters of Battle.

If that's "removing Sisters", then GW got "removing" confused with "continuing".

And again: people actually need to put the story into context. Grey Knights are said to be "spiritually incorruptible". Their flesh and their armor, however, is not. Walking through a giant tide of warp spawned badness is going to affect both the armor and flesh.

i know that, but i always have this thing hitting me in the back of the head. it keep saying, "you dont know till its out"

kenzosan wrote:i always have this thing hitting me in the back of the head

Hit it back. Harder.

And don't let it type, please.

Dashofpepper wrote:This is definitely not what I was hoping for with Necrons. :(

I *like* WBB. Part of the attraction I have to Necrons is their ability to overcome a lack of mobility with teleportation, getting a free WBB in the process. I love throwing wraiths into assault, losing half of them, teleporting them out of combat after two WBBs to go assault something on the other side of the board. Here it looks like instead of a 3++ followed by a 4+ followed by a 4+, its down to a 3++ (presuming they stay the same) followed by a 5++, with nothing else.

Boo.

One of the ways you get your additional 4+ is through a monolith, no? It's fair to assume that it will still have a similar effect in their next Codex. We only know the very basics of the rumours. Or as Yak put so much more eloquently:

yakface wrote: And we have no idea what units have the 'ever-living' rule or if there are any things that provide that rule to other units (maybe like the resurrection Orb?), so there may be plenty of different ways to help bolster this new WBB rule in the army.

And the rumors indicate that at least one of the new transports will help regenerate dead guys, so I wouldn't be surprised if there are a few different things in the army that now do that...so that's a different kind of resurrection dynamic now added to the army.

I'd like to request that any further posts that rant about Mat Ward but have nothing to do with the Necrons (I know he's supposed to be doing the Codex but it's still not the place) be deleted?

I think it's crazy people are complaining so much when we know VERY LITTLE of what is going to happen with the 'crons. We don't even know if they're next. We have a wide variety of conflicting rumours and nothing is set in stone. I say we listen to what is rumoured but bear in mind that it's just rumour and wait until the actual Codex or evidence comes out before we cry cheese. As it should be - but rarely is - with every rumoured Codex release.

Add "gullible" to the list of adjectives describing many of the comments in this thread along with "goofy", and "groundless". How's that for alliteration?

My previous post was quite facetious and was intended as a response to the usual ridiculous, over-the-top waffling on here about things that have scant to do with the original post, Necron release rumors. Even many of the posts that are relevant to the topic seem to be written by people with a little too much time on their hands to worry about things that are virtually of no consequence.

If it's this bad now I can't wait to see the apoplectic posts that will appear here once the models and book are actually revealed.

BrassScorpion wrote:Add "gullible" to the list of adjectives describing many of the comments in this thread along with "goofy", and "groundless". How's that for alliteration?

My previous post was quite facetious and was intended as a response to the usual ridiculous, over-the-top waffling on here about things that have scant to do with the original post, Necron release rumors. Even many of the posts that are relevant to the topic seem to be written by people with a little too much time on their hands to worry about things that are virtually of no consequence.

Agreed. It's kind of scary that people can go from "Wow, this is bad fluff" to "OMG MY ARMY IS BEING SQUATTED!".

If it's this bad now I can't wait to see the apoplectic posts that will appear here once the models and book are actually revealed.

Oh it's going to be fun no doubt.

yakface wrote:For the 'new' WBB rule, I was dreading seeing yet another army with Feel No Pain yet the existing WBB rule is just TERRIBLE to play with. The new rule seems like a nice compromise. While its only on a 5+ now instead of a 4+, the fact that you get to take that save against any type of weaponry means that in certain situations its going to net you about the same amount of resiliency that the current WBB does, in some situations it will net you less and in some situations it will net you more. Also, the opponent knows exatly what he needs to do to cancel out the save (wipe the unit out or break it), so the old strategy of pounding on individual Necron units until you wipe them out remains in place. And we have no idea what units have the 'ever-living' rule or if there are any things that provide that rule to other units (maybe like the resurrection Orb?), so there may be plenty of different ways to help bolster this new WBB rule in the army.

While I think that FnP is entirely too widespread at the moment, of all the armies that have FnP, Necrons are probably the most deserving. I would not say WBB is terrible to play with, it just needs to be written with more clarification on how it works. I agree that it's difficult to really assess the impact of any of your rumors without more details, but if we are going to comment on them, we only have what was posted to make an initial assessment. The biggest drawback (aside from phase out) to playing necrons is not addressed. The x2 toughness and armor ignoring weapons in CC were never really a problem for us in the past as a smart player would know when and where to have rez orb coverage, and how to protect that coverage. As it stands with the new rule, oppossing players will just do what they've always done, go for a sweeping advance which negates everything the crons can do.

And the rumors indicate that at least one of the new transports will help regenerate dead guys, so I wouldn't be surprised if there are a few different things in the army that now do that...so that's a different kind of resurrection dynamic now added to the army.

Sounds cool, and I'd like to see how it works...just lose the transport.

With Gauss Weaponry not being rending, again that's kind of a relief. Making the entire army have rending would have likely meant they were just too potent. Instead they've left Gauss with the auto-glance rule (which isn't too powerful with 5th edition damage tables), but in order to make up for this, it sounds like they're getting a much wider diversity of weapon types that will allow them to fill the gaps. So instead of just having about 3 different weapon types in the whole army, they now have a bit of different things for people to play with.

Again...it's too hard to say how this will play out with out seeing what exactly is available where and at what cost. Personally, I think that if you can make an army work by giving every Tom, Dick, and Harry a force weapon, rending shouldn't be too much of an issue if done right.

Phase out, while fluffy just didn't work for things like tournaments, and should really be relegated to things like Apocalypse or fun games (so I'm glad its gone).

I'd say I'm glad it's gone in the sense that the whole army phases out...I would have much prefered something along the lines of phase out chance at the unit level however.

Destroyers moving to Jump Infantry makes sense if they've added a bunch of Jetbikes and Fast Skimmers to the army (as it sounds like they've had). Before the Destroyers were the 'fast' element of the army. But if that role has been taken over by other things, it makes sense from a diverse gameplay perspective to have Destroyers move into a slightly slower role...and really the only big change is that they can't turbo-boost (but now you have other stuff that can move that fast instead).

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Destroyers were fine as they were. Like I said before, once the details come out, my money is on a nerf just so GW can sell new stuff. I mean really? They couldn't have made the new stuff JI instead?

Immortals as a troops choice should be fine. Just as with every other codex, it sounds like you'll be able to go with a more Elite style Necron army or a wall of Necron warrior army...you'll have the choice and hopefully both units will have distinct advantages (likely point cost vs. effectiveness) that will make you want to take one over the other.

Meh, it's fine...but I'd rather have a base CC oriented troop (Flayed Ones), with a special character able to upgrade Immortals to scoring.

Having named characters and making the upper echelons more sentiment sounds cool to me, mainly because it will add a bunch of much needed flavor and backstory into the army. While they are automatons, they are also supposed to be the remains of an ancient civilization and there's no reason their great champions still can't have distinct and flavorful histories and special rules.

I agree 100%

As for adding vehicles...everyone is assuming that the 'fluff' behind the transports is that they carry Necrons. One indication I've gotten is that the theme behind least one of the new transports is still teleportation based. So while it may behave like a typical transport, the look and fluff behind it would still be that the unit is teleporting in using the vehicle's node (perhaps it has a limited node and can only lock onto so many models at a time?). And with the other vehicle which is apparently actually carting models around, perhaps this is the Lord/Retinue ride? Kind of like a super chariot where his entourage and him swoop around killing people? Again, people are somehow assuming that because the Necrons now have transport vehicles it somehow means they don't teleport anymore. But why can't the Lord & his entourage teleport down to the surface before the battle on their ride? Why would EVERYTHING in the army have to teleport instead of being carried? Why can't some stuff teleport and some stuff ride around in a killer ride?

Vehicles are fine, I have no problem with that. I have a problem with them completely throwing a very cool and fluffy alternative to mech armies out the window for the sake of selling new toys.

I don't see the problem. I personally thought the Necron army as a whole just lacked diversity and it sounds like they're getting quite a few new units, so I think its great. There's only so many different ways you can have armored robots walking or flying around, so frankly a slew of new vehicles is really the natural direction to go to add new units to the range.

New units and toys are great, but selling out the soul and feel of an army for them sucks. I know that's what GW is in business for, but they can do it in a way that better retains the originality of the army.

And having Crypteks (the Lord's retinue) that are more sentient than your standard Necron warrior being attached to units is exactly what I was hoping the army would have. It allows your plain jane Necron units to have a bit of difference while still keeping the basic premise that your Warrior units are all the same...its just a Cryptek has broken off to lead the unit that makes the difference between unit A and unit B.

This is essentially what I hoped for Pariahs (with a couple tweeks), so if they are Pariahs 2.0, then I'm all for it.

But as always, it will ultimately come down to how the new models fit in the range. If they pull off the look of the new stuff, I don't see why the army can't finally be both unique from other armies AND more fun to play (as you now have much more diversity amongst your units as a Necron player).

That's the problem though, they are making the army less unique in many ways, and that's what has many Cron players like myself upset....assuming this set of rumors is true.

Kanluwen wrote:And with Tyranid players you get a sense of entitlement that is ridiculous.

While I generally agree with the rest of what you said, don't try and make it like Tyranid players are the worst at this. You'd get the same reactions out of any other armie's players if they had the same thing happen.

Finally something that I can belive! Thanks yakface! New cron dex seems to include much new stuff but hope that there will be more new infantry units. Just cant wait!

Maelstrom808 wrote:While I generally agree with the rest of what you said, don't try and make it like Tyranid players are the worst at this. You'd get the same reactions out of any other armie's players if they had the same thing happen.

I hate to say it: but you really don't. There's complaints from the Chaos players, but you have to be blind to not know that those are justified.

Bring me moar of these rumorz...

Kanluwen wrote:

Maelstrom808 wrote:While I generally agree with the rest of what you said, don't try and make it like Tyranid players are the worst at this. You'd get the same reactions out of any other armie's players if they had the same thing happen.

I hate to say it: but you really don't. There's complaints from the Chaos players, but you have to be blind to not know that those are justified.

As are the majority of the Tyranid complaints. They can still compete (as can Chaos), but GW has done nothing but poo on them since the release of the codex.