Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I reckon it will be funny when the new chaos marine codex comes out as I believe a lot of people will complain how unfair or broken it is (imagine how funny it would be, Necron or Grey Knight players telling chaos marine players how their fluff and rules are over the top). I hope Typhus, Kharn or Ahriman get in their fluff that the do something so awesome that it is complained about for all eternity like beating the absolute out of one of the major xenos races (Necrons) or a major chapter (blood angel, Grey Knights or Ultramarines) sounds stupid but I am sick of the fluff how Chaos is defeated so easily now in certain (MATT WARD) codexs.

KalashnikovMarine wrote:He's one of the best rules writers they've ever had when his book literally ruined an entire edition of WFB? Or had a trio of near gamebreaker codex for 40k? (Exceptions of the 'Crons what with NO ONE having readily available anti-air. A $70 FW kit does not count as readily available anti-air)

To sum up on the SoB codex. We lost about 1/3 of our list options, lost most of our special characters. and our Immolators took a nasty nerf bat to the face. And with the loss of Inquisitors we lost Land Raiders as transport options so we don't have.... well any heavy armor to speak of. Things could have been a lot worse (especially if Ward wrote the fluff) but SoB still took a solid couple kicks to the face. The only positive thing of note is that Repentia got a little better, Celestine is brutal in close combat and thanks to 6E we essentially got inducted troops back as allies so we can at least have a little armor support.

I'll admit he messed up with chaos daemons(fantasy). But much like his grey knight book which everyone screamed was too strong it was clearly written with the next edition in mind. And personally I much prefer having a book released at the end of an editions life cycle be "amazing" and then balanced by the new edition. Compared to what happened to say chaos and Dark Angels. Books that come out at the end of an edition, are "balanced" for the last few months that edition is relevant and then are turned into garbage when you compare them to the next editions actual books. Right now 40k is in a very balanced state and a lot of that is due to Ward. When I see rumors of a codex I am interested in and the rumors say ward is writing it the only thing I cringe for is what he might do to my armies fluff.

Right now of the 14 armies in 40k, Blood angels, grey knights, guard, space wolves, dark eldar, and necrons are what I would consider "A tier" armies. All roughly as good as each other. Some might even say due to certain changes Orks are back up here again. But from my experiences I will still keep them in what I call "B tier" Which consists of every other army in the game except for the tau which I consider the weakest army in the game currently. Daemons are pretty low as well but with their new unit buffs they still work better than tau. Every B tier army in the game has at least one build that can compete against the A tier.

Maybe playing fighting games has skewed my idea of a healthy game balance. If 40% of a cast is "good" and 90% of the left overs are "viable" it just sucks to be the "joke character" other than that though the game is doing great. And 40k is pretty close to that. Throw in allies and the balance becomes even closer as armies are capable of filling in some of their weaknesses. For example Chaos daemons can take some battle brothers from chaos and get the anti air they need.

IcedAnimals wrote:

I'll admit he messed up with chaos daemons(fantasy). But much like his grey knight book which everyone screamed was too strong it was clearly written with the next edition in mind.

It was released two and a half years before 8th under a different design studio head, that's some...major foresight there.

1hadhq wrote:Beware of the 4 horsemen, aka codices by M:W.

Ask and ye shall receive:

"I watched as Ward opened the first of the four Codices. Then I heard him say in a voice like thunder, "Come and read!" I looked, and there before me was a grey horse! Its rider held a NEMESIS DOOM FIST, and he was given a Daemon Weapon, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on destroying everything in the Warp by himself. We called him Draigo.

Then Ward opened the second Codex, I heard him say, "Come and read!". Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to kill anything really easily and to make lesser men look really silly. To him was given a large sword and wings, and he was called the Sanguinor.

When Ward opened the third Codex, I heard him say again, "Come and read!" I looked, and there before me was a blue horse! Its rider was holding a pair of massive power fists. Then I heard Ward say, "He will be your spiritual liege!". We called this rider Guilliman.

When the Ward opened the fourth Codex, I heard the his voice "Come and read!". I looked and there before me was a metallic horse! Its rider was named Nemesor, and Obyron was following close behind him. They were given power over Hull Points, to kill by Gauss, Tesla and Warscythe, and with Writhing Worldscale destroying the earth"

Mostly, I hate Matt Ward because of the BA codex. I mean, deep striking Land Raiders? Really? And the bloddy cheesy death masks, not to mention a gak-ton of other stuff. Also,
the fact that a Predator has a front of 13 and a side fo 11.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote: His book took this a little further, and claimed that Guilliman is the Spiritual Liege of all other Codex chapters, and that those chapters who didn't think so highly of him were outcasts in the eyes of others. Agreed, he went a little overboard with that piece of fluff, but tbh he did nothing which haven't been done before.

Look, I'm sorry but you're just perpetuating the ignorance here.

That was never in the book, and never a part of the background. It was the writers opinion, that he wisely kept separate from the established background.

Why is it a writer's established spoken opinion holds for nil just because he didnt keep it in writting?

Would you let me make a WW2 concentration camp movie with Jew as main character, if in an interview i praise Nazis?

You too are also perpetuating the same thing, that he doesn't need to uphold any responsibility as long as it isn't written or printed in writing....

LunaHound wrote:Why is it a writer's established spoken opinion holds for nil just because he didnt keep it in writting?

Because if he didn't put it in the writing, then it's just an opinion and has no bearing on the 'facts' of the universe he has created.

Kaldor wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Why is it a writer's established spoken opinion holds for nil just because he didnt keep it in writting?

Because if he didn't put it in the writing, then it's just an opinion and has no bearing on the 'facts' of the universe he has created.

Ok... then let me put it in another way.

if you were to publish a children's story book
and in an interview you said little girls gives you a boner
do you think anyone will let that go?

Like... that example is extreme but, surely according to your defense, its alright because he didn't actually write that down.
But in any real situation, it doesn't work that way...

Because what people says reflects their mentality.....

However his opinion would be reflected in his work would it not?

Basically he just got over excited really then said something he probably shouldn't have in an interview which likely only sparked the general hate for the Ultramarines further. It's not like he's done a lackluster job on factions that he's gone down in interviews saying he disliked or anything...

n0t_u I believe someone was saying just that in regards to a fantasy codex... goblins or some such. Apparently Ward didn't want to do it so he seriously phoned it in.

Kaldor wrote:

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote: His book took this a little further, and claimed that Guilliman is the Spiritual Liege of all other Codex chapters, and that those chapters who didn't think so highly of him were outcasts in the eyes of others. Agreed, he went a little overboard with that piece of fluff, but tbh he did nothing which haven't been done before.

Look, I'm sorry but you're just perpetuating the ignorance here.

That was never in the book, and never a part of the background. It was the writers opinion, that he wisely kept separate from the established background.

Space Marine codex? Page 8 I think.

LunaHound wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Why is it a writer's established spoken opinion holds for nil just because he didnt keep it in writting?

Because if he didn't put it in the writing, then it's just an opinion and has no bearing on the 'facts' of the universe he has created.

Ok... then let me put it in another way.

if you were to publish a children's story book
and in an interview you said little girls gives you a boner
do you think anyone will let that go?

Like... that example is extreme but, surely according to your defense, its alright because he didn't actually write that down.
But in any real situation, it doesn't work that way...

Because what people says reflects their mentality.....

that might be the absolute worst possible way to back up your point I have ever heard. I think fulgrim is the best primarch and would beat down any other primarch in a fair 1v1 fight. Does that make it true? No. It is an opinion. There is no factual data to support my claim. I can say I think sisters of battle are the single greatest military power the imperium has. I even have a couple points that support my claim. They outnumber marines and are better trained and equiped than the guard. Does that make my opinion true? Again, no. It is still nothing more than an opinion. Ward likes guilliman. But he made sure to not include his opinion in an area where it would become a fact. He could have very easily written it in the actual codex that any chapter that doesn't follow the codex is considered outcasts and shunned by the imperium. He chose not to.

His OPINION has no bearing what so ever on the facts of the universe. Guilliman is not the best primarch. Chapters like the templars, angels, wolves, etc, are not outcasts. they are exalted heroes of the imperium. His "reflected mentality" means nothing when it comes to the games fluff. If he was to say that yellow is his favorite color in an interview that doesn't suddenly change the fluff of 40k to make it so orks now have to paint their vehicles yellow to go "fasta".

n0t_u wrote:However his opinion would be reflected in his work would it not?

Basically he just got over excited really then said something he probably shouldn't have in an interview which likely only sparked the general hate for the Ultramarines further. It's not like he's done a lackluster job on factions that he's gone down in interviews saying he disliked or anything...

Well...except he did. His first Fantasy book was Orks and Goblins, and he came out and said they were hard for him to do since they weren't of particular interest for him, and they ended up being one of the worst books of 7E and the first redone for 8th. His 2nd was Daemons which broke the entire edition, to which, when asked, he stated "well they're Daemons, of course they should be powerful!"

Which is what I was hinting at with that sentence. Probably should have put a wink at the end of it.

ah ok, got it

Heh I missed the sarcasm entirely, I think I need to ventilate my paint work space better

thefarseerofnorthryde wrote:Mostly, I hate Matt Ward because of the BA codex. I mean, deep striking Land Raiders? Really? And the bloddy cheesy death masks, not to mention a gak-ton of other stuff. Also,
the fact that a Predator has a front of 13 and a side fo 11.

So you're complaining about something no one uses (DS-ing Land Raiders), a fairly tame piece of wargear on an expensive Elites choice (Death Masks) and something that's been around since forever (13/11/10)?

LunaHound wrote:Because what people says reflects their mentality.....

But has no bearing on their work.

If I write a book in which a thing is red, and in an interview I state that in my opinion the thing is blue, then what colour is the thing?

That example doesn't really work in this context. Red vs. blue is an objective observation, whereas Codex's are not based upon anything factual. Furthermore, red vs. blue is also a huge contrast, whereas Ward's belief that the Ultramarines are the best Space Marines would also explain quite a bit of the fellating within the Space Marine codex.

The question isn't "Did Matt Ward state in the Codex that the Ultra Marines are the best chapter ever and all other chapter's look up to them", the question is "Is that Matt Ward's belief, and does that fanboyism leak into his work?", to which the answer would be yes. It's painfully obvious whilst reading the codex that Matt Ward is a shameless Ultramarine fanboy who thinks they're better than everyone else. Whether or not that belief is the reality or not doesn't really matter.

thefarseerofnorthryde wrote:Mostly, I hate Matt Ward because of the BA codex. I mean, deep striking Land Raiders? Really? And the bloddy cheesy death masks, not to mention a gak-ton of other stuff. Also,
the fact that a Predator has a front of 13 and a side fo 11.

Never being one to leap to the defence of Ward, but Preds have ALWAYS had that armour. Go on, have a look in the 3rd edition SM codex (or even the 3rd rulebook) and you'll see Preds have that armour value. I honestly don't know why you're attributing it to Ward.

Grimtuff wrote:

thefarseerofnorthryde wrote:Mostly, I hate Matt Ward because of the BA codex. I mean, deep striking Land Raiders? Really? And the bloddy cheesy death masks, not to mention a gak-ton of other stuff. Also,
the fact that a Predator has a front of 13 and a side fo 11.

Never being one to leap to the defence of Ward, but Preds have ALWAYS had that armour. Go on, have a look in the 3rd edition SM codex (or even the 3rd rulebook) and you'll see Preds have that armour value. I honestly don't know why you're attributing it to Ward.

I don't even see a problem with it. Front armor 13 can be a nuisance but 11 side and 10 rear are not an issue.

thefarseerofnorthryde wrote:Mostly, I hate Matt Ward because of the BA codex. I mean, deep striking Land Raiders? Really:

I think it was Forgeworld that came up with the idea http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Grey-Knights/THUNDERHAWK-TRANSPORTER-WITH-LAND-RAIDER.html

Matt Ward just made it available to "regular" 40K players and games without access to pricy Thunderhawk models.

I quite enjoy these sort of abstractions that add a "virtual environment" of a larger battle to the regular 40K game without having to slog through the dreariness of large Apoc-Games.

Air-insertions of Armour also fit the Blood Angels style of warfare, but hey..

1. He writes some fun rules, but has a tendency to unintentionally create really awful combos (see Daemons book ending 7th edition, or pretty much everything in War of the Rings).

2. His mentality towards writing rules does not at all consider balance, but rather how he feels about the army (I don't like Orcs and Gobbos, so their book sucks. Daemons are DAEMONS!!1!!, so they should be unbeatable. For people saying Space Marines is balanced, when it first came out it was certainly the top-tier cheese with Vulkan in every army list).

3. His fluff is terrible. It is full of hyperbole that breaks even the already very relaxed standards of what is ludicrous in 40K. This touch is felt even on material that was written by others in the past and is re-used in his work, as he edits it to make the faction he likes moar awezomes (see C:SM).

4. Miniature wargamers are rarely easy on the eyes, but Matthew Ward looks especially like a colossal douche (see pictures in WD and 6th edition rulebook).

5. He occasionally signs his name as "Mat" with one "t". For some reason that affectation irritates me to no end.

Zweischneid wrote:

thefarseerofnorthryde wrote:Mostly, I hate Matt Ward because of the BA codex. I mean, deep striking Land Raiders? Really:

I think it was Forgeworld that came up with the idea http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Grey-Knights/THUNDERHAWK-TRANSPORTER-WITH-LAND-RAIDER.html

Matt Ward just made it available to "regular" 40K players and games without access to pricy Thunderhawk models.

I quite enjoy these sort of abstractions that add a "virtual environment" of a larger battle to the regular 40K game without having to slog through the dreariness of large Apoc-Games.

Air-insertions of Armour also fit the Blood Angels style of warfare, but hey..

As a side-note, it was originally (in 40k, this is after the FW transporter) introduced as an Apoc data-sheet for Blood Angels, the Lazarus Assault Force (or something similar) with it's fluff based in the 3rd War for Armageddon, Ward just allowed it to be done in regular games (unless he originated the datasheet).

Omegus wrote:1. He writes some fun rules, but has a tendency to unintentionally create really awful combos (see Daemons book ending 7th edition, or pretty much everything in War of the Rings).

WotR was probably the best game rules-wise GW has ever produced... Then the army list section happened.

You really don't want to know what Galadriel + Legolas + Thraduil + Haldir can do. They honestly make 7th edition Daemons look weak in comparison!
And it's just plain wrong for me to have unit of pike-wielding Easterlings, backed up by Amdur + Khamul + The Betrayer + Saruman. I was still rolling a fistfull of attacks even after those poor 54 dwarfs were all dead!

There is no truely OP crap until you've seen the great tragedy that is WotR army lists!

Omegus wrote:2. His mentality towards writing rules does not at all consider balance, but rather how he feels about the army (I don't like Orcs and Gobbos, so their book sucks. Daemons are DAEMONS!!1!!, so they should be unbeatable. For people saying Space Marines is balanced, when it first came out it was certainly the top-tier cheese with Vulkan in every army list).

Well, to be fair every book is cheese for the first few weeks - it's just the basic laws of wargaming! (heck, even 7th ed Orcs&Gobbos were "cheese" for the first 5 days! )

C:SM's overall is pretty balanced with the exception of a couple standout combos. (Vulkan = king of 5th due to his meltagun buffs, Lysander + Sternguard = horrible things, etc...)
BA's however are everything codex marines are but +1.
GK's are basically the best of every marine codex +10!
Newcrons are just disgusting right now.
Wood Elves in 6th were hienous, awful things with forest-surfing Treemen & Waywatchers doing nasty things to everyone.
Daemons broke 7th edition entirely. (even DE's & Sakven couldn't compete! )
7th ed O&G's just sucked the big one...
WotR is unplayable if one player wants to roflstomp

So out of 8 total 'army' projects, 1 is well balanced, 1 sucked to the point of being nearly un-winnable, and the rest are all either OTT or outright broken as feth!

Omegus wrote:3. His fluff is terrible. It is full of hyperbole that breaks even the already very relaxed standards of what is ludicrous in 40K. This touch is felt even on material that was written by others in the past and is re-used in his work, as he edits it to make the faction he likes moar awezomes (see C:SM).

Ward writes 'fluff'. The rest of the team writes 'background'.

Omegus wrote:4. Miniature wargamers are rarely easy on the eyes, but Matthew Ward looks especially like a colossal douche (see pictures in WD and 6th edition rulebook).

Well, at the very least, he doesn't look nearly as greesey as Mr.Thorpe did in every single picture!
He may not be the girls' first choice, but at least the shine from his hair doesn't light up the photos on it's own!

Havent read a codex in quite some time nor played a game of 40k but I do read a lot of fluff and after reading this thread I decided to read the GK's codex and totally agree with what has been said about the fluff in it, partically about Draigo in the time line it says a GM has just been killed by Mortarion then Draigo just goes in there kills everything and carves the GM;'s name in Mortarions heart, just cause he could. Then I read his profile and wow, he is the 2nd and 11th Primarch combined I think.

I remember GK's from reading about them in the 2nd ed and always wanted a army of them knowing they would be powerful and cool but the GK codex doesnt entice me to start them to be honest.

IcedAnimals wrote:I just want to comment on this part here.

His other works, such as C:Sisters of Battle, C:Chaos Daemons and C:Necrons have not caused as much criticism as the ones I described in detail. There were major balance issues with C:Sisters of Battle, which he wrote with Cruddace and which made the army very far from being competitive. But overall, the other books have faced generally positive critique, even from some of his haters. All in all, the man writes Codices which are very balanced against each other, but sometimes his fluff is a bit weird. When Matt Ward writes a book, rest assured it will be very competitive and versatile, but be prepared for major changes in the fluff of the army in question.

The sisters of battle codex is what it currently is because two authors worked on it. How two authors can work on a book and then it only deserve a white dwarf entry is beyond me. But there are two things that made the sisters book "not so bad" the first is that matt wasn't allowed to touch the fluff. The white dwarf sisters book being a bare bones project has no new fluff. Everything in it had already been established previously. This means they only thing these two authors were actually writing is the rules. Most of which the update barely changed. Most of our changes are units that were taken away from us and given to grey knights instead. The only thing that was "new" was our incredibly broken matt ward invention conclaves. Which he basically just copy pasted out of one of his other books.

Except Crudface did most of the work on this update and it was far more than that. The entire faith system got deballed into uselessness. Canonesses, who have had jump pack options since their creation (there are three versions of the model WITH jump packs, in fact) suddenly lost that option along with a ton of other wargear. Basic battle sisters got worse and went up in cost. Immolators got worse. Even Repentia got worse, which was really an achievement. The only improvement was the previously non existant Conclave, which is basically just a transplant from the GK henchmen units, but in watered down form. Cruddface utterly raped that army and it was not exactly strong before he got to it.

Kaldor wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Because what people says reflects their mentality.....

But has no bearing on their work.

If I write a book in which a thing is red, and in an interview I state that in my opinion the thing is blue, then what colour is the thing?

Neither does Monica Lewinsky smoking Clinton cigar have anything to do with Clinton's work right?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

thefarseerofnorthryde wrote:Mostly, I hate Matt Ward because of the BA codex. I mean, deep striking Land Raiders? Really? And the bloddy cheesy death masks, not to mention a gak-ton of other stuff. Also,
the fact that a Predator has a front of 13 and a side fo 11.

So you're complaining about something no one uses (DS-ing Land Raiders), a fairly tame piece of wargear on an expensive Elites choice (Death Masks) and something that's been around since forever (13/11/10)?

This.

Seriously, look at any tournament winning spam-a-thon BA list, when have they ever used Deep Striking land raiders, Or flying Dreadnought Librarians, these are all just fun gimics that we could use, and yes they can be quite powerful, but most of the time they go horrible wrong or are massive point sink, and Death Masks on Sanguinary Guard, the only units the reliably work against, are units with crap Ld, which usually means that they are hardly worth using them against anyway. Again another cool gimic. Not much else.