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Ceann wrote:
Really?

You know what else is "used in the appropriate content" you just referenced?

SKYBORNE
When using its jump pack (whether moving

MOVEMENT PHASE
If a Jump model uses its jump pack (or equivalent) in the Movement phase

ASSAULT PHASE
If a Jump model uses its jump pack to charge into assault

FALL BACK MOVES
Jump units always use their jump packs when Falling Back, and their Fall Back moves


Move, move, move movement phase, assault phase.

BvA
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise.

Movement is a basic rule, assaulting is a basic rule, Morale is a basic rule.

Yup. All the rules for movement, assault, shooting, and morale in the Core Rules section are basic rules that apply to infantry.

The advanced rules for movement, assault, shooting, and morale that apply to specific types of models are in the other sections of the BRB, most notably the Unit Types section and the Special Rules compendium.

Skyborne isn't in the Core Rules section or the Special Rules compendium and so cannot be a basic rule or a special rule. Skyborne is therefore an advanced rule. And we know this by definition.

Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).

This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brother Ramses wrote:
I have given you multiple examples of exactly how the rules work, per the RAW. I have shown you the interaction between the Basic Rules of Unit Types and how Advanced Rules interact with said Basic Rules of Unit Types.

On the other hand, you have shown rubbish when trying to explain the process of Stormrider, even going so far as to call it a codex Special Rule when it is a prime example of Basic versus Advanced scenario explained step by step. Your explanation for Kharn or Kor'sorro would more then likely be more of the same RAI crap.

As long as you keep referring to Chariot basic rules you are violating plainly stated rules.

Core Rules - This section contains all the basic rules that you will need in order to command your army and fight your Warhammer 40,000 battles.

Maybe you should post in the Proposed Rules forum?

1.
Yup. All the rules for movement, assault, shooting, and morale in the Core Rules section are basic rules that apply to infantry.

No.

BvA.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise.

It does NOT SAY "Basic rules apply to infantry models in the game" it says ALL the models in the game.

You have formulated this idea in your own that the Core Rules only apply to infantry, This is where you are incorrect.

Ceann wrote:
1.
Yup. All the rules for movement, assault, shooting, and morale in the Core Rules section are basic rules that apply to infantry.

No.

BvA.
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise.

It does NOT SAY "Basic rules apply to infantry models in the game" it says ALL the models in the game.

You have formulated this idea in your own that the Core Rules only apply to infantry, This is where you are incorrect.

Indeed. Basic rules apply to all models in the game.

Bike units inherit all the basic rules of movement, assault, shooting, and morale. All models are infantry by default. Infantry is also a basic rule.

The advanced rules in the Unit Types section differentiate the specific unit types from the infantry type by adding advanced rules or overriding the inherited basic rules.

Skyborne is an advanced rule that a jump unit can do but a basic infantry can not. The jump unit still has all the basic rules for movement that infantry can do as presented in the Core Rules section but now has additional advanced rules.

Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.

1.
All models are infantry by default. Infantry is also a basic rule.

What page states this.

2.
he advanced rules in the Unit Types section differentiate the specific unit types from the infantry type by adding advanced rules or overriding the inherited basic rules.


This is your opinion and not an established fact.

3.
Skyborne is an advanced rule that a jump unit can do but a basic infantry can not. The jump unit still has all the basic rules for movement that infantry can do as presented in the Core Rules section but now has additional advanced rules.

What page states this.

Ceann wrote:I need you to work with me here buddy.

You may need me to work with you, but you aren't doing anything to work with me. You have repeatedly ignored the important aspects of the literal statements provided in the rulebook.

Ceann wrote:1.What is the basic rule for movement?

From "The Turn"

2. Movement phase. Here, you move any of your units that are capable of doing so. See the movement rules for more details of how to do this.
Okay, lets see the movement phase.

Noted under "The Movement Phase"
For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section.
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance

Before you bring this up...this statement?
Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase.
Has been preceded by THIS statement "For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move".
You are being told how infantry moves, you are not being told that infantry is the rule, or the standard.
The rule is "In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance." As noted from "The Turn"
I don't know about you but "For the time being" is pretty clear to me.

What unit from Unit Type is breaking these rules?

I have been over it. You did not work with me on this. You have ignored what I have posted.

Where in Movement Distance does it tell you to refer to the unit type to determine the maximum movement distance of a model or unit?

Unlike the Range of the Weapon which tells you to refer to the Weapon's profile, Movement Distance gives a set maximum number of inches to move. It does not tell you to look elsewhere for this distance.

The sections you keep quoting says nothing about a different distances. It is aware of other movement distances, but it does not detail them here, nor inform us as to where to find any additional movement distances.

The only places that actually define different Movement Distances other than 6" is the actual Unit Type rules themselves, and they go out of their way to point them out.

Ceann wrote:2. What is the basic rule for shooting?

From "The Turn"

4. Shooting phase. You now shoot with any of your units that are capable of doing so. See the shooting rules for more details on how to resolve this.
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot , 2. Choose a Target, 3. Select a Weapon, 4. Roll To Hit, 5. Roll To Wound, 6. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties, 7. Select Another Weapon

What unit from the Unit Type section is breaking these rules?

Super-Heavies and Gargantuan Creatures to name two. They may choose multiple targets.

If we consider More Than One Weapon we see that Monstrous Creatures, Vehicles, Gargantuan Creatures, and some Bikes breaks this rule.

Brother Ramses wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
Advanced Rules are those which differentiate a model from being an Infantry model, among other things.

Wrong.

Kharn the Betrayer is Unit Type Infantry (Character), so he follows all the Basic rules for Unit Type Infantry, just like any other model that has Unit Type Infantry, for the Movement phase, Shooting phase, and Assault phase.

He has a set of Special Rules; Champion of Chaos, Fearless, Furious Charge, IC, Mark of Khorne, Veterans of the Long War.

But wait! In the Assault phase, he has an Advanced rule, The Betrayer, that results in unmodified rolls of one hitting a friendly model in the same unit.

So as I just showed you, Advanced Rules do not differentiate from being an Infantry model. Kharn is still Unit Type Infantry with an Advanced Rule in Assault and a list of Special Rules.

Does Champion of Chaos, Fearless, Furious Charge, IC, Mark of Khorne, and Veteran of the Long War come from him being an Infantry model?

Do all Infantry models come with these rules?

Here is what Basic vs Advanced says regarding advanced rules:

Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).

Three of those apply to Kharn at all times. He has a special kind of Weapon (Gorehowl), he has unusual skills (as you listed above), and because he is a Character, he is not a normal infantry model.

If he joins another unit by virtue of one of his unusual skills (IC), he is different from his fellows because he is a Character.

Sure sounds like everything but his Infantry unit type counts as an advanced rule per the quoted line which defines it.

So, quit cherry-picking you two.

 Charistoph wrote:

Ceann wrote:I need you to work with me here buddy.

You may need me to work with you, but you aren't doing anything to work with me. You have repeatedly ignored the important aspects of the literal statements provided in the rulebook.

Ceann wrote:1.What is the basic rule for movement?

From "The Turn"

2. Movement phase. Here, you move any of your units that are capable of doing so. See the movement rules for more details of how to do this.
Okay, lets see the movement phase.

Noted under "The Movement Phase"
For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section.
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance

Before you bring this up...this statement?
Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase.
Has been preceded by THIS statement "For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move".
You are being told how infantry moves, you are not being told that infantry is the rule, or the standard.
The rule is "In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance." As noted from "The Turn"
I don't know about you but "For the time being" is pretty clear to me.

What unit from Unit Type is breaking these rules?

I have been over it. You did not work with me on this. You have ignored what I have posted.

Where in Movement Distance does it tell you to refer to the unit type to determine the maximum movement distance of a model or unit?

Unlike the Range of the Weapon which tells you to refer to the Weapon's profile, Movement Distance gives a set maximum number of inches to move. It does not tell you to look elsewhere for this distance.

The sections you keep quoting says nothing about a different distances. It is aware of other movement distances, but it does not detail them here, nor inform us as to where to find any additional movement distances.

The only places that actually define different Movement Distances other than 6" is the actual Unit Type rules themselves, and they go out of their way to point them out.

Ceann wrote:2. What is the basic rule for shooting?

From "The Turn"

4. Shooting phase. You now shoot with any of your units that are capable of doing so. See the shooting rules for more details on how to resolve this.
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot , 2. Choose a Target, 3. Select a Weapon, 4. Roll To Hit, 5. Roll To Wound, 6. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties, 7. Select Another Weapon

What unit from the Unit Type section is breaking these rules?

Super-Heavies and Gargantuan Creatures to name two. They may choose multiple targets.

If we consider More Than One Weapon we see that Monstrous Creatures, Vehicles, Gargantuan Creatures, and some Bikes breaks this rule.

Brother Ramses wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
Advanced Rules are those which differentiate a model from being an Infantry model, among other things.

Wrong.

Kharn the Betrayer is Unit Type Infantry (Character), so he follows all the Basic rules for Unit Type Infantry, just like any other model that has Unit Type Infantry, for the Movement phase, Shooting phase, and Assault phase.

He has a set of Special Rules; Champion of Chaos, Fearless, Furious Charge, IC, Mark of Khorne, Veterans of the Long War.

But wait! In the Assault phase, he has an Advanced rule, The Betrayer, that results in unmodified rolls of one hitting a friendly model in the same unit.

So as I just showed you, Advanced Rules do not differentiate from being an Infantry model. Kharn is still Unit Type Infantry with an Advanced Rule in Assault and a list of Special Rules.

Does Champion of Chaos, Fearless, Furious Charge, IC, Mark of Khorne, and Veteran of the Long War come from him being an Infantry model?

Do all Infantry models come with these rules?

Here is what Basic vs Advanced says regarding advanced rules:

Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).

Three of those apply to Kharn at all times. He has a special kind of Weapon (Gorehowl), he has unusual skills (as you listed above), and because he is a Character, he is not a normal infantry model.

If he joins another unit by virtue of one of his unusual skills (IC), he is different from his fellows because he is a Character.

Sure sounds like everything but his Infantry unit type counts as an advanced rule per the quoted line which defines it.

So, quit cherry-picking you two.

The entire idea for what advanced rules are, is based on this house of cards predicated upon the fact that you all assume Infantry to be a STANDARD and not the example used to explain the rules.

Show me where Infantry is the STANDARD.

Advanced rules applying to SPECIFIC MODELS is because those models have SPECIAL RULES. Not because they use BASIC RULES differently.

Ceann wrote:1.All models are infantry by default. Infantry is also a basic rule.

What page states this.

I cannot give you a page number as I haven't had the DTV since last summer.

But try the definition of advanced rules, the introduction to unit types, and the rules under Infantry in unit types for a starter.

Though, I do not agree with the "all models are infantry by default" line. The Core Game rules are operating under the assumption that any model being addressed therein is Infantry. That's as close as it gets.

Ceann wrote:2.the advanced rules in the Unit Types section differentiate the specific unit types from the infantry type by adding advanced rules or overriding the inherited basic rules.

This is your opinion and not an established fact.

That actually is established fact by virtue of the definition of advanced rules that you won't recognize for some reason.

Ceann wrote:3. Skyborne is an advanced rule that a jump unit can do but a basic infantry can not. The jump unit still has all the basic rules for movement that infantry can do as presented in the Core Rules section but now has additional advanced rules.

What page states this.

The page that details Basic vs Advanced, and the entire Movement Phase section. If you think Skyborne is not an advanced rule, where is it in the Movement Phase section of the rulebook?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ceann wrote:
The entire idea for what advanced rules are, is based on this house of cards predicated upon the fact that you all assume Infantry to be a STANDARD and not the example used to explain the rules.

Show me where Infantry is the STANDARD.

I have shown you, in several places, and many times. You have done nothing to gainsay these quotes. You have not demonstrated I have misquoted them. Therefore, the only error that can be involved is yours. You are fighting against the pricks of the rulebook and complaining about us. I even color-coded the definition of advanced rules to help you recognize the conditions better.

I will try.

Page 4 Introduction.

As you read through the rules, you will notice some of the text is bold, like this. This highlights the most important elements of the rule in question and helps bring it to your
eyes when skimming a page.

I will point out bolded statements further along.

1.
Core Rules
This section explains how to fight battles with your army of Citadel miniatures in the grim darkness of the 41st Millennium.

Explains HOW to fight battles and no mention of Infantry being a standard.

2.
Unit Types
This section explores all the different unit types that describe your models. From footslogging infantry and rampaging monstrous creatures to armored battle tanks and
supersonic flyers, this section lists all the special rules that apply to these models.

The first unit type it mentions is Infantry, in the Unit Types section.

3.
For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section.

BOLDED
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance.

It plainly states, ""For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move...." and the others " will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section" You are being EXPLAINED Infantry, not told a standard. Everyone takes this being EXPLAINED as the standard, for no reason. The bolded, most IMPORTANT element of the movement phase, is MAXIMUM distance, if Infantry were the standard, maximum distance would not be the most important element.

Ceann wrote:
1.
All models are infantry by default. Infantry is also a basic rule.

What page states this.

These rules.

Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.

[At the ending of the Core Rules section] So far, we’ve discussed the basic rules as they pertain to Infantry, the most important and common unit type in the Warhammer 40,000 game.

Ceann wrote:
2.
he advanced rules in the Unit Types section differentiate the specific unit types from the infantry type by adding advanced rules or overriding the inherited basic rules.


This is your opinion and not an established fact.

Nope. It's a paraphrase of the definition.

Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).

And this rule.

Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules.

Ceann wrote:
3.
Skyborne is an advanced rule that a jump unit can do but a basic infantry can not. The jump unit still has all the basic rules for movement that infantry can do as presented in the Core Rules section but now has additional advanced rules.

What page states this.

It's a paraphrase of these two rules.

Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models.

Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).

Let's face it Ceann. The rules disagree with your argument and they support mine.



This is the how we determine which rule is which . . .

Ceann wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Ceann wrote:I need you to work with me here buddy.

You may need me to work with you, but you aren't doing anything to work with me. You have repeatedly ignored the important aspects of the literal statements provided in the rulebook.

Ceann wrote:1.What is the basic rule for movement?

From "The Turn"

2. Movement phase. Here, you move any of your units that are capable of doing so. See the movement rules for more details of how to do this.
Okay, lets see the movement phase.

Noted under "The Movement Phase"
For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move, as they are by far the most common units in the game. Vehicles, Jump units, Bikes and certain other
units move in different ways to represent their greater mobility, and these will be discussed in full detail later in the book, in the Unit Types section.
In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance

Before you bring this up...this statement?
Models move up to 6" in the Movement phase.
Has been preceded by THIS statement "For the time being, we’ll just explain how squads of Infantry move".
You are being told how infantry moves, you are not being told that infantry is the rule, or the standard.
The rule is "In your turn, you can move any of your units – all of them if you wish – up to their maximum movement distance." As noted from "The Turn"
I don't know about you but "For the time being" is pretty clear to me.

What unit from Unit Type is breaking these rules?

I have been over it. You did not work with me on this. You have ignored what I have posted.

Where in Movement Distance does it tell you to refer to the unit type to determine the maximum movement distance of a model or unit?

Unlike the Range of the Weapon which tells you to refer to the Weapon's profile, Movement Distance gives a set maximum number of inches to move. It does not tell you to look elsewhere for this distance.

The sections you keep quoting says nothing about a different distances. It is aware of other movement distances, but it does not detail them here, nor inform us as to where to find any additional movement distances.

The only places that actually define different Movement Distances other than 6" is the actual Unit Type rules themselves, and they go out of their way to point them out.

Ceann wrote:2. What is the basic rule for shooting?

From "The Turn"

4. Shooting phase. You now shoot with any of your units that are capable of doing so. See the shooting rules for more details on how to resolve this.
1. Nominate Unit to Shoot , 2. Choose a Target, 3. Select a Weapon, 4. Roll To Hit, 5. Roll To Wound, 6. Allocate Wounds & Remove Casualties, 7. Select Another Weapon

What unit from the Unit Type section is breaking these rules?

Super-Heavies and Gargantuan Creatures to name two. They may choose multiple targets.

If we consider More Than One Weapon we see that Monstrous Creatures, Vehicles, Gargantuan Creatures, and some Bikes breaks this rule.

Brother Ramses wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
Advanced Rules are those which differentiate a model from being an Infantry model, among other things.

Wrong.

Kharn the Betrayer is Unit Type Infantry (Character), so he follows all the Basic rules for Unit Type Infantry, just like any other model that has Unit Type Infantry, for the Movement phase, Shooting phase, and Assault phase.

He has a set of Special Rules; Champion of Chaos, Fearless, Furious Charge, IC, Mark of Khorne, Veterans of the Long War.

But wait! In the Assault phase, he has an Advanced rule, The Betrayer, that results in unmodified rolls of one hitting a friendly model in the same unit.

So as I just showed you, Advanced Rules do not differentiate from being an Infantry model. Kharn is still Unit Type Infantry with an Advanced Rule in Assault and a list of Special Rules.

Does Champion of Chaos, Fearless, Furious Charge, IC, Mark of Khorne, and Veteran of the Long War come from him being an Infantry model?

Do all Infantry models come with these rules?

Here is what Basic vs Advanced says regarding advanced rules:

Advanced rules apply to specific types of models, whether because they have a special kind of weapon (such as a boltgun), unusual skills (such as the ability to regenerate), because they are different to their fellows (such as a unit leader or a heroic character), or because they are not normal infantry models (a bike, a swarm or even a tank).

Three of those apply to Kharn at all times. He has a special kind of Weapon (Gorehowl), he has unusual skills (as you listed above), and because he is a Character, he is not a normal infantry model.

If he joins another unit by virtue of one of his unusual skills (IC), he is different from his fellows because he is a Character.

Sure sounds like everything but his Infantry unit type counts as an advanced rule per the quoted line which defines it.

So, quit cherry-picking you two.

The entire idea for what advanced rules are, is based on this house of cards predicated upon the fact that you all assume Infantry to be a STANDARD and not the example used to explain the rules.

Show me where Infantry is the STANDARD.

Advanced rules applying to SPECIFIC MODELS is because those models have SPECIAL RULES. Not because they use BASIC RULES differently.

You said that Advanced Rules differentiate a model from being an Infantry model, but Kharn remains an Infantry model despite having the Advanced Rule of The Betrayer so apparently you are wrong. So he still uses the Basic Rules for Unit Type Infantry in the Movement phase and in the Shooting phase, but has an Advanced rule for the Assault phase.

But, this entire time you and col_impact have been saying that Unit Type Infantry is the Basic Rule while all other Unit Types are Advanced Rules. Kharn is an example of Unit Type Infantry that has an Advanced Rule for the Assault Phase which actually is supported by the RAW scenarios I have given you for Stormrider, Sammael, Kharn, and Kor'sorro.

col_impact and Ceann, you ruined this topic for everyone. Don't start a thread on this argument again.