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8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight







Yea missed them when I went over it.

 SHUPPET wrote:

wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial dice arts crap lol
 
   
Made in ca
Psychic Prisoner aboard a Black Ship



United States

I've observed a GK vs Tyranid 2000 and played a GK vs Death Guard 2000 and GK vs Dark Eldar 1250. I've had best luck with MSU strikes for fire support to a kill ball of paladins, voldus, and apothecary. Making Voldus warlord and giving him +1 Ld makes him great for purging enemies. My FLGS is slowly devolving into Hero-hammer as my lists are a lot of independent characters. I had a callidus, 2 Brother Champions, 2 apothecaries, a paladin squad, and Voldus supported by a purgation squad, 3xStrikes, and a lascannon dread. I also have started to prefer receiving charges by setting up in cover and having a +1 armor save vs attackers. Psycannons have been performing really well for me with the rampancy of T7 this edition, better than psilencers anyways.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/24 06:48:01


 
   
Made in us
Unshakeable Grey Knight Land Raider Pilot




Haveatya wrote:
I've observed a GK vs Tyranid 2000 and played a GK vs Death Guard 2000 and GK vs Dark Eldar 1250. I've had best luck with MSU strikes for fire support to a kill ball of paladins, voldus, and apothecary. Making Voldus warlord and giving him +1 Ld makes him great for purging enemies. My FLGS is slowly devolving into Hero-hammer as my lists are a lot of independent characters. I had a callidus, 2 Brother Champions, 2 apothecaries, a paladin squad, and Vodlus supported by a purgation squad, 3xStrikes, and a lascannon dread. I also have started to prefer receiving charges by setting up in cover and having a +1 armor save vs attackers. Psycannons have been performing really well for me with the rampancy of T7 this edition, better than psilencers anyways.


Do you mean you are claiming the +1 to armour save during the fight phase?

The cover rules give no benefit during close combat unfortunately, just like last edition. I am loving how tough a target terminators become now while in cover. Previously, they very rarely gained any benefit.
   
Made in ca
Psychic Prisoner aboard a Black Ship



United States

No but the shooting then charge, using cover to nullify most shooting then overwatching as they come. I rarely charge now. If you receive you can normally activate twice sequentially. Unless there are multiple combats but I have yet to really have that happen somehow.
   
Made in us
Stalwart Strike Squad Grey Knight





Haveatya wrote:
I Psycannons have been performing really well for me with the rampancy of T7 this edition, better than psilencers anyways.


But... what about the math?
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Nairul wrote:
Haveatya wrote:
I Psycannons have been performing really well for me with the rampancy of T7 this edition, better than psilencers anyways.


But... what about the math?


Mathhammer and theorycrafting have their place, but the only result that matters is what happens on the tabletop.
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight







If you guys did the math... you would see that Psycannon is stronger against higher T units. The previous Mathhammer was in regards to total average of efficiency to a T range of 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8.

AVERAGE of a RANGE. If you do your own mathhammer of T7 specifically, the Psycannon becomes superior. Bonus, it is also superior on T8 as well.

Mathhammer is always right in the end...

 SHUPPET wrote:

wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial dice arts crap lol
 
   
Made in ca
Psychic Prisoner aboard a Black Ship



United States

Grey Knights have a lack of things that produce high volume of fire at high strength except for Razorbacks, Land Raiders, and Dreads. Having my Purgation team use gate of infinity to reposition and fire at normal 3+ BS is great for putting wounds on stranded characters or putting ripping up lighter transports.
   
Made in us
Stalwart Strike Squad Grey Knight





 Quickjager wrote:
If you guys did the math... you would see that Psycannon is stronger against higher T units. The previous Mathhammer was in regards to total average of efficiency to a T range of 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8.

AVERAGE of a RANGE. If you do your own mathhammer of T7 specifically, the Psycannon becomes superior. Bonus, it is also superior on T8 as well.


**Sighs** Let's do the math again.

Assume your unit has moved in the preceding movement phase. As requested, you're shooting at a T7 Unit with 3+ armour save.

Psycannon (14 pts) --> 4 Shots --> 2 Hits --> 1 Wound --> 0.5 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.5 Damage --> 0.0357 Damage per Point
Psilencer (4 pts) --> 6 Shots --> 3 Hits --> 1 Wound --> 0.33 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.66 Damage --> 0.165 Damage per Point

 Quickjager wrote:
Bonus, it is also superior on T8 as well.


Nope!

Psycannon (14 pts) --> 4 Shots --> 2 Hits --> 0.67 Wound --> 0.34 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.34 Damage --> 0.0243 Damage per Point
Psilencer (4 pts) --> 6 Shots --> 3 Hits --> 0.5 Wound --> 0.17 Unsaved Wounds --> 0.34 Damage --> 0.085 Damage per Point

 Quickjager wrote:
Mathhammer is always right in the end...


It sure is.

Godeskian wrote:


Mathhammer and theorycrafting have their place, but the only result that matters is what happens on the tabletop.


Definitiely. I'm aware this is a game of dice. I choose NOT to ignore the probabilities, but instead embrace them. Understanding the probabilities develops a deeper understanding of the game. This is why I mathhammer =) Also we're in Tactica Discussion.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2017/06/24 17:16:56


 
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight







You know what I used the Heavy Psycannon profile, 2. Yep.

EDIT: Also, I wasn't talking efficiency per point. But it didn't matter.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/24 18:06:43


 SHUPPET wrote:

wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial dice arts crap lol
 
   
Made in es
Been Around the Block




Why are you assuming units teleported by gate do not have a hit modifier? Rules clearly state they count as having moved.
   
Made in ca
Psychic Prisoner aboard a Black Ship



United States

Seizeman wrote:
Why are you assuming units teleported by gate do not have a hit modifier? Rules clearly state they count as having moved.

We couldn't find anything? Where do you see that.

Gate of Infinity says nothing about the unit counting as moving as if it was the movement phase. Heavy descriptor says the unit must have moved in the move phase. The power goes off in the psychic phase so does not qualify. RAW I don't see your argument anywhere.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/24 18:22:11


 
   
Made in es
Been Around the Block




Rulebook states that any unit set up on the battlefield mid-turn counts as having moved. Gate makes you remove the unit and set it up mid.turn.

On another topic, I've tried the Doomglaive dreadnought and it is really good. In melee he's better than a dreadknight and the heavy psycannon is arguably the best ranged weapon available to a dread. He has smite plus an extra power and all the benefits of a venerable. Just for 168 points, which is less than any other variant for how much it does.
   
Made in ca
Psychic Prisoner aboard a Black Ship



United States

Seizeman wrote:
Rulebook states that any unit set up on the battlefield mid-turn counts as having moved. Gate makes you remove the unit and set it up mid.turn.

On another topic, I've tried the Doomglaive dreadnought and it is really good. In melee he's better than a dreadknight and the heavy psycannon is arguably the best ranged weapon available to a dread. He has smite plus an extra power and all the benefits of a venerable. Just for 168 points, which is less than any other variant for how much it does.


That doesn't help me, I asked where it was. A page or something would be nice.
   
Made in es
Been Around the Block




"That doesn't help me, I asked where it was. A page or something would be nice."

Oh, sorry, page 177, on the margin.
   
Made in us
Stalwart Strike Squad Grey Knight





Seizeman wrote:
"That doesn't help me, I asked where it was. A page or something would be nice."

Oh, sorry, page 177, on the margin.


Gate of Infinity is NOT Reinforcements, so that doesn't apply.

For comparison, Orks have a similar psychic power: Da Jump. Except Da Jump states explicitly "This unit counts as having moved for the purposes of any rules (e.g. firing Heavy weapons)."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/24 18:58:06


 
   
Made in es
Been Around the Block




How is not reinforcements? Reinforcements is defined as " a unit set up mid-turn". There's no other definition for reinforcements on the rulebook.
   
Made in ca
Psychic Prisoner aboard a Black Ship



United States

Nairul wrote:
Seizeman wrote:
"That doesn't help me, I asked where it was. A page or something would be nice."

Oh, sorry, page 177, on the margin.


Gate of Infinity is NOT Reinforcements, so that doesn't apply.

For comparison, Orks have a similar psychic power: Da Jump. Except Da Jump states explicitly "This unit counts as having moved for the purposes of any rules (e.g. firing Heavy weapons)."


I was gonna agree with Seize but now that you said this I am back to my interpretation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Seizeman wrote:
How is not reinforcements? Reinforcements is defined as " a unit set up mid-turn". There's no other definition for reinforcements on the rulebook.
Considering the two powers are identical, minus that text, I would have to say it doesn't apply to GOI. Otherwise both, or neither, would have it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/24 19:06:49


 
   
Made in es
Been Around the Block




So terminators teleporting from their teleportation chamber or using their beacon don't have the penalty either? There's no need for their rules to state that they count as having moved because that's already covered by the core rules. As per the reinforcements rule, there's absolutely no difference between a terminator deploying from the teleport chamber and grey knights using Gate.
   
Made in us
Unshakeable Grey Knight Land Raider Pilot




I brought this up earlier in the thread, I think, can't remember exactly.

The arguement is that, in the pg177 margin rule, there are 2 seperate conditions:

1. Units that are set up (in this manner) cannot move or advance further that turn.

2. Units that arrive as reinforcements count as having moved for purposes etc...

The argument is that the Gate squad only counts for the first condition, as it was already on the table that turn and is therefore not 'Reinforcements'.

It seems a very tenuous exploitation of the wording to me, I believe the squad does count as reinforcements based on the fact that the entire rule column on pg 177 is called 'Reinforcements '. If you're using those rules, you count as reinforcements in all respects. Unfortunately it isn't ironed out and the rules isn't very clear. Could be called either way. Hopefully will be cleared up by an FAQ.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/24 19:43:28


 
   
Made in us
Stalwart Strike Squad Grey Knight





Units that started the turn on-the-board and use Gate of Infinity are not "Arriving as Reinforcements". They were already on the battlefield.
   
Made in es
Been Around the Block




The reinforcement rule says absolutely nothing about "starting the turn on the board", it talks about units being set up from outside the battlefield. Gate of infinity says "remove the unit from the battlefield and set it ".

There are not different categories of reinforcements, every unit that comes into the battlefiel mid-turn is a reinforcement.
   
Made in us
Unshakeable Grey Knight Land Raider Pilot




Didn't mean to restart the argument, The main issue here is that there is no definition for what the term Reinforcements actually is, and is open to interpretation.

Can we agree that it needs FAQing?
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





Nairul wrote:

Godeskian wrote:


Mathhammer and theorycrafting have their place, but the only result that matters is what happens on the tabletop.


Definitiely. I'm aware this is a game of dice. I choose NOT to ignore the probabilities, but instead embrace them. Understanding the probabilities develops a deeper understanding of the game. This is why I mathhammer =) Also we're in Tactica Discussion.


I'm being unclear. There is more to this game than purely rolling dice. Yes, maximising your probabilities is always a wise move, but being able to effectively maneuvre (harder than it looks with a base 5'' move on troops), deal with LoS blocking terrain and so forth is also part of the game. For that matter, proper target selection is immensely more important in an edition of split fire and variable weapon damages than it ever has been.

The math might say that under perfectly average conditions x shots does x wounds and x saves are made, but those perfectly average circumstances are uncommon at best.

Mathhammer has it's place, but the dice are not the whole story.

And yes, it's a tactica thread, but it seems to me that anything not related to weapon probabilities gets scant discussion.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/25 00:16:47


 
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight







Why should you assume the opponent is playing less than anything but optimally? Mathhammer is the only tool against that by averaging the most powerful tools we can maximize our efficency.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/25 01:08:43


 SHUPPET wrote:

wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial dice arts crap lol
 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




*Current meatspace coordinates redacted*

 Quickjager wrote:
Why should you assume the opponent is playing less than anything but optimally? Mathhammer is the only tool against that by averaging the most powerful tools we can maximize our efficiency.
Yup. That also means that if you are choosing a sub-optimal load out, probably in favor of filling a tactical niche, you can do so knowing exacting what you're gaining and losing. Don't get me wrong, I sometimes field stuff (read buy stuff) just because it looks cool, but that doesn't mean I don't want to know hoe efficiently I'm spending my points.

He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all. 
   
Made in us
Terrifying Wraith






How can we run the Dreadnought with a psycannon? Are forgeworld rules updated for 8th?

 
   
Made in us
Devestating Grey Knight Dreadknight







 Fenris-77 wrote:
 Quickjager wrote:
Why should you assume the opponent is playing less than anything but optimally? Mathhammer is the only tool against that by averaging the most powerful tools we can maximize our efficiency.
Yup. That also means that if you are choosing a sub-optimal load out, probably in favor of filling a tactical niche, you can do so knowing exacting what you're gaining and losing. Don't get me wrong, I sometimes field stuff (read buy stuff) just because it looks cool, but that doesn't mean I don't want to know hoe efficiently I'm spending my points.


I mean if you know your meta, obviously build for it. But right now there is none so we turn towards the number crunching.

Also yes the GK Dreadnought did get an update.

 SHUPPET wrote:

wtf is this buddhist monk ascendant martial dice arts crap lol
 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut





This is going to sound like a stupid question. I know that if you're in close combat you can use psychic powers, but if there is a Cc happening near you, can you smite or purge into it with a unit not involved in the cc?
   
Made in us
Terrifying Wraith






I am assuming I would have to buy the new imperial armor book to find the rules then?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/25 11:36:43


 
   
 
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