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 Melissia wrote:
Not if that inquisitor is their own detachment.

Also, I get the idea that Master of Ordnance is pretty much spot on regarding people wanting to see guard nerfed to oblivion. There's been far too many ignorant people saying things like "nerf guard across the board" and claiming the entire book is broken.

Some people are certainly in that camp, some of us are more targeted. There is no denying that guard/imperial guard heavy armies are currently the strongest army in the game by a decent amount.

Breng77 wrote:
Some people are certainly in that camp, some of us are more targeted. There is no denying that guard/imperial guard heavy armies are currently the strongest army in the game by a decent amount.

However, most of the guard book is pretty much garbage, and people are arguing guard's good stuff shoudl be nerfed while ignoring everything else because honestly they just don't give a damn as long as their marine armies win tons of battles against them.

In fact, I remember people arguing that Guard should NEVER win against marines, because guard are supposed to lose against elites.

 Melissia wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Some people are certainly in that camp, some of us are more targeted. There is no denying that guard/imperial guard heavy armies are currently the strongest army in the game by a decent amount.

However, most of the guard book is pretty much garbage, and people are arguing guard's good stuff shoudl be nerfed while ignoring everything else because honestly they just don't give a damn as long as their marine armies win tons of battles against them.

In fact, I remember people arguing that Guard should NEVER win against marines, because guard are supposed to lose against elites.

a person said that not people...but yes guard's bad stuff needs a buff, but their good stuff is off the charts points efficient.

And the person who said that said it in a specific context and with specific caveats.

And plays AM.

 Melissia wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Some people are certainly in that camp, some of us are more targeted. There is no denying that guard/imperial guard heavy armies are currently the strongest army in the game by a decent amount.

However, most of the guard book is pretty much garbage, and people are arguing guard's good stuff shoudl be nerfed while ignoring everything else because honestly they just don't give a damn as long as their marine armies win tons of battles against them.

In fact, I remember people arguing that Guard should NEVER win against marines, because guard are supposed to lose against elites.

Most, not including the HQs and characters, artillery, scions, taurox prime, command and heavy weapon squads, ratlings, conscripts, and guard infantry.

So the russes, chimeras, ogryns, whatever the flyer is named, and maybe super heavies? (though I haven't heard much concrete about the latter either way).

The overwhelming majority of the guard index ranges from about equal to everyone else to really really good. It's just that leman russes were such a huge mainstay that their poor showing feels like a really big deal, even if the majority of the index is strong. Plus, who here doesn't want the Russ variants to get a price decrease and maybe for guard to get a flyer with better accuracy than an ork?

But honestly, if most of the guard book is garbage, then entire armies must consist of nothing but garbage and super garbage. Guard is strong across most of their army.

Breng77 wrote:
a person said that not people...but yes guard's bad stuff needs a buff, but their good stuff is off the charts points efficient.

No, people, not a single person. This wasn't the only time I saw sentiments like that. Hell, seen similar sentiments about orks, that the only reason orks should exist is to get slaughtered by marines.

Were I fixing guard I would do the following (not specific fixes)
1.) Fix conscripts
2.) Increase points on basically all Scion stuff
3.) Decrease range on all artillery (36" - 48" at most for weapons that don't need LOS) except maybe the deathstrike.
4.) Buff leman russ damage output and drop cost.
5.) Allow squads to fire out of chimeras, probably reduce points slightly.
6.)Change all HWT to artillery, change stats increase points.
7.) remove the -1 to hit from the hydra firing at ground targets.
8.)Increase range on hellhound variant weapons, buff number of shots as well.
9.) Overall points adjustments

Artillery having lower range than LR is ridiculous. As for the rest, yeah, I guess, but personally I run a Scion army (leftover from 6-7th ed codex) and I don't think they need a nerf, I haven't been doing great with them.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Artillery having lower range than LR is ridiculous. As for the rest, yeah, I guess, but personally I run a Scion army (leftover from 6-7th ed codex) and I don't think they need a nerf, I haven't been doing great with them.

The range thing is a balance issue. With essentially infinite range (anything with 72" range has infinite range on a standard table) not needing LOS is far too powerful because opponents have basically no way to defend against those shots. Personally I would go with no ranges above 48" at all
But if LOS is needed they aren't super broken. So if you are any longer range I suppose you could say can only shoot without LOS if
The unit is within 48", or five a to hit penalty for long range out of Los shots.

Scion units are prevalent in many high finishing tournament armies (command squads, regular squads taurox prime)and are very powerful.

It's mostly scion plasma spam, where they're considered disposable enough that they can just spam overcharge and not care if the squad survives.

Artillery always had out of LOS super long range shot, they were decently priced before and now with the nerfs they got hit with, I don't think they need changes.

I got the feeling it was related to plasma, I have 6 of them in my list, might be why I don't feel the OPness of Scions.

Yeah. Basically they'd deploy 12-9" away from a target squad, blow their plasmatic wad, and then if they survived they'd do it again until killed. Playing scions like an actual army instead of gaming the system, they're not quite as overpowered, but the game sometimes needs to be balanced around the people who game the system unfortunately.

Honestly, I wouldn't even consider 120 conscripts in a 2000 point list to be "spam".

I know 120 sounds like a lot of models to people who are used to spending 2000 points on Chapter Master Smashface and his 10 companions, but for a regular army made of regular dudes it's really not. If you don't have a plan to deal with 120 dudes with flashlights then your TAC list isn't very taccy.

Bringing back some kind of quasi-platoon structure should be sufficient to make them less appealing as a way to add salt to imperial soup.

Move and Fire does need to be looked at on Elysians though. As much as I love being able to throw all the grenades, it's a bit much in an edition where nobody else can use more than a single token grenade.

So the solution to Conscripts is "git gud". Ok.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
IMHO the best way to nerf conscripts is to remove them.

Add an entry to the Adeptus Ministorum called "Frateris Militia" and give them LD8 with a 6+ armour save, let them choose between a lasgun, laspistol, or chainsword (but only one of them, no laspistol + CS!) and make them 3 or 4ppm, depending. Let that be the sort of "Imperial gigantic horde" and now they're still available to everyone, but don't benefit from orders, while still benefiting from priests and Celestine, etc.You could even bring them in groups of 5-unlimited. It'd be funny to say the least.

I'd buy that! It's much better than the current set up!

Breng77 wrote:

6.)Change all HWT to artillery, change stats increase points.

Artillery lascannons?

Galas wrote:So the solution to Conscripts is "git gud". Ok.

No, the solution is "dont just spam high damage low ROF elite killer then complain when the horde of mooks floods you with bodies"

Scott-S6 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

6.)Change all HWT to artillery, change stats increase points.

Artillery lascannons?

It might let them last a round of shooting!



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Breng77 wrote:Were I fixing guard I would do the following (not specific fixes)
1.) Fix conscripts
2.) Increase points on basically all Scion stuff
3.) Decrease range on all artillery (36" - 48" at most for weapons that don't need LOS) except maybe the deathstrike.
4.) Buff leman russ damage output and drop cost.
5.) Allow squads to fire out of chimeras, probably reduce points slightly.
6.)Change all HWT to artillery, change stats increase points.
7.) remove the -1 to hit from the hydra firing at ground targets.
8.)Increase range on hellhound variant weapons, buff number of shots as well.
9.) Overall points adjustments

And whilst we are at it lets just take out the Guard codex/index and burn it, then gak in a massive muck thrower and and spray it all over the Guard players, because you might as well if you are going to remove everything even remotely usable.

SilverAlien wrote:

Most, not including the HQs and characters, artillery, scions, taurox prime, command and heavy weapon squads, ratlings, conscripts, and guard infantry.

HQ units are squishy and need body guarding, characters vary, Taurox Prime is the only good transport and is heavily restricted, command squads are weak, Ratlings I cannot comment on, Conscripts are pathetic unless one shells out on supporting characters and even then will die in droves if the enemy comes equipped to deal with them, and baring Storm Troopers Guard infantry might as well not exist.

So the russes, chimeras, ogryns, whatever the flyer is named, and maybe super heavies? (though I haven't heard much concrete about the latter either way).

Russes are a downgrade from Predators and Chimeras are overpriced trash. Super Heavies are great until you try and move.

The overwhelming majority of the guard index ranges from about equal to everyone else to really really good. It's just that leman russes were such a huge mainstay that their poor showing feels like a really big deal, even if the majority of the index is strong. Plus, who here doesn't want the Russ variants to get a price decrease and maybe for guard to get a flyer with better accuracy than an ork?

Funny. I seem to recall about one combo being usable with the Guad army as it stands - Conscript blob tarpits bubblewrapping Artillery behind cover.

But honestly, if most of the guard book is garbage, then entire armies must consist of nothing but garbage and super garbage. Guard is strong across most of their army.

The Guard army is a two trick pony and the only real issue that people are having with this is that they are so used to walking all over Guard armies and deleting most of them in the first turn that this new found resiliency scares them a little. Once the hype dies down and the various whining players work out how to use their brains it will all be over for the Guard players.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Artillery always had out of LOS super long range shot, they were decently priced before and now with the nerfs they got hit with, I don't think they need changes.

I got the feeling it was related to plasma, I have 6 of them in my list, might be why I don't feel the OPness of Scions.

Guard artillery was buffed not nerfed it never was great against single models before, hit very infrequently when it didn't have Los (no bs modifying scatter.). The only thing it is worse against is clumps of cheap infantry. Also with screening units being much better it is super strong to
Be able to hit anything and receive no return fire.

In theory you could Recost plasma as well if only plasma is an issue on scion infantry the taurox is still super undercosted.


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 Scott-S6 wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

6.)Change all HWT to artillery, change stats increase points.

Artillery lascannons?

Orks
Alessentially have artillery missions launchers so I don't see the issue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@master if ordinance, how is toning down the stuff that is too good and buffing the bad things bad? Right now guard is by far the best army in the game.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Galas wrote:So the solution to Conscripts is "git gud". Ok.

No, the solution is "dont just spam high damage low ROF elite killer then complain when the horde of mooks floods you with bodies"

That could be cool. The problem is that not even going full Flamer works agains't Conscripts. Plus, an army can have 120-200 Conscripts and still a ton of elite and OP units as the NOVA tournament has demostrated.

The level of Imperial Guard negationism you and other are demostrating is in "Wraithknights are balanced" and "Taunar is actually fluffy" levels.

Breng77 wrote:
and buffing the bad things

You never once mentioned buffing the bad things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
That could be cool. The problem is that not even going full Flamer works agains't Conscripts.

It's fairly easy to annihilate a conscript squad iwth flamer/combiflamer tacticals in a single turn.

I doubt theres a point-time invested efficient way to remove Conscripts in the game. Even anti-horde weapons will have problems to be really efficient. In the other hand, you have very efficient weapons to kill elite units like plasma.
But to be honest I'll refer my sing in this discussion. Theres two sides, nobody wan't to move, the ball is in GW's roof.

Personally, I'll like if AM was better balanced, because I use some of the "worst" units like Bullgryns, Leman Russes, Sentinels, etc... with my Genestealer Cult. I don't want them to be nerfed so hard that as a faction become unplayable.

Or worst, you end like 8th edition Tau, spamming HQ's and having people saying you are fine because that way you can compete in high level tournaments. Flyrant style.

As a guard player, I normally don't like to get into this nonsense. But I'm feeling game today.

1. Conscripts are point efficient for orders because they can come in large unit size and be ordered by a single order.
- This is absolutely true. Numerically they're about 30% more efficient per point when you give them orders, even accounting for their worse accuracy.
- I agree this should be fixed. Remove their ability to take a <Regiment>, and they lose orders. They're conscripts, make Infantry Squads be the more valuable unit because they can receive orders.

2. Conscripts are point efficient for wounds, because commissars can make them largely immune to morale.
- THIS IS THE POINT OF PLAYING GUARD AND SHOULD NOT BE FIXED. Its in the fluff, its in everything about who they are. If you eliminate this, then you might as well just delete conscripts entirely because there's no point in taking them.
- However, it will be heavily mitigated by removing their <REGIMENT>, as people will have to put them in their own detachment. That ought to be enough of a restriction.

3. Command squads are being used as special weapon suicide teams.
- This is a silly side effect of removing platoons while trying to keep command squads.
- My fix is to delete command squads, move their upgrades as options to their basic units. Someone might actually bring a flag if it was on an Infantry Squad rather than a 4 wound t3 5+ unit.
- This also pretty much fixes scions, as if you want 4 plasma you need to bring a full 10 scions, which is a much heavier investment for what amounts to a suicide unit.

 Galas wrote:
I doubt theres a point-time invested efficient way to remove Conscripts in the game.

If you mean "spend equal points to kill all 50 conscripts in a single turn" like usual, then no there isn't, and there shouldn't be-- because your expectations are bs and you're asking to be completely overpowered.

If you used your exact same metrics, rhinos are more powerful than conscripts because it takes more points over more turns to kill rhinos with anti-tank weapons than it does to kill conscripts with anti-infantry weapons.

 Melissia wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
and buffing the bad things

You never once mentioned buffing the bad things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
That could be cool. The problem is that not even going full Flamer works agains't Conscripts.

It's fairly easy to annihilate a conscript squad iwth flamer/combiflamer tacticals in a single turn.

Go re-read my numbers 4,5,7,8(9). Unless you think buffing leman russes, helbound varients, hydras, and chimeras doesn't count as buffing bad units. Are these units considered good?

 Melissia wrote:

 Galas wrote:
I doubt theres a point-time invested efficient way to remove Conscripts in the game.

If you mean "spend equal points to kill all 50 conscripts in a single turn" like usual, then no there isn't, and there shouldn't be-- because your expectations are bs and you're asking to be completely overpowered.

If you used your exact same metrics, rhinos are more powerful than conscripts because it takes more points over more turns to kill rhinos with anti-tank weapons than it does to kill conscripts with anti-infantry weapons.

But Rhino's are Marine units, so its okay.

And really how many tacticals with flamed and combi-flamed is that? Each squad gets 7 flamed hits so
~3 wounds+ 2 more from bolters. So that is 10 such squads or 850 points to kill 50 conscripts. Not including points for getting them to 8" range.

The rhino thing is blatantly false I'm pretty sure I can find units costing say 3-4 times the cost of a rhino that reliably kill it in a single turn.

>Conscripts are a blob tarpit designed to soak up wounds
>Players complain about conscripts being a blob tarpit that soaks up wounds

We really cannot win can we?

 master of ordinance wrote:
>Conscripts are a blob tarpit designed to soak up wounds
>Players complain about conscripts being a blob tarpit that soaks up wounds

We really cannot win can we?

So you think it is reasonable to have a unit that takes up a ton of board
Space that requires 7+ Times its cost to deal with? I have no problem with them soaking wounds they should
Just do it commensurate to their points cost. As mentioned before give them a 7+ Save and they are fairly costed and still points efficient for
Wounds (takes about 4x their cost to reliably remove the squad.)

I should know that a 10 pages-thread on dakka-dakka isn't worth it anymore. I'll leave before all this Imperial Guard negationists draws me with them.

Conscripts aren't a unit well balanced. And the proof is that that they are used in winning lists in tournaments. And I think that appearing in tournaments isn't just the only metric one should use to know if a unit is overpowered or not. In this case for example, the problem maybe aren't conscripts but Commisars. But theres something there that need to be addressed.

But of course this means that I want to be overpowered and a space marine fanboy that just hates Imperial Guard. Man the mental gymnastics.

 master of ordinance wrote:
>Conscripts are a blob tarpit designed to soak up wounds
>Players complain about conscripts being a blob tarpit that soaks up wounds

We really cannot win can we?

>Guilliman is a Primarch designed to buff his troops.
>Players complain about Guilliman being a Primarch that buff his troops

Ultramarines really cannot win, can they?

EDIT: I have to thank you guys, nobody talks anymore about Tau players, now everyone hates Imperial Guard players and their conscripts

Oh look it is MoO, lets get some quotes on his previous opinions.

 master of ordinance wrote:
In all honesty I just want to fell like the glory factions did over the past few years.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lets get with Melissa as well.

 Melissia wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Lol that is a horrible argument; that is like the dumb GK players from last ed. saying "Dreadknights are fine! It doesn't matter they're overperforming because they're all we got!"

Maybe you feel that way, but you know what? Don't care. We've played the same army lists since 3rd edition and basically the same since 2nd. No army is in even remotely a similar situation than us, even Grey Knights.

We finally move from being a bottom tier, forgettable list to one that can actually contend competitively. It's fething nice to see. If only GW actually gave us new units, I might give a damn about you feeling like this is a horrible argument. But they don't. So I don't.