Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Aaranis wrote:
I see you're all quick to dismiss our Librarians. I plan on using at least one in every game with DA, because the powers Mind Worm, Aversion and Righteous Repugnance are very good, especially the last one. It may be difficult to cast with a WC7, but giving rerolls to Hit AND to Wound on a unit of Deathwing Knights is really appealing, it frees you of using Belial or a Chaplain for the rerolls to Hit, and nothing else allows you to reroll all failed to Wound rolls. Anyone tried this ?

And why a so negative vision of the Land Speeder Vengeance ?

Agreed. Libbys are just fine. While I disagree about mind worm, the other 2 are very good powers. I use righteous repugnance on my knights and they literally destroy just about anything and aversion is amazing at neutering the big bads of your opponents army. Range isn't an issue for me because I DS my libby in term armor in so he's plenty close enough to get the 2 best powers off.

As for the comment that librarians aren't fielded in any chapter is %100 wrong. Blood angels would certainly like a word....

The other downside of the Vengeance is that it has a large variance of shots. There are turns where you will roll a 1, or turns where you will roll a 6. Either way, I would much rather take something else for the points. I prefer reliability (or at least better odds). In my opinion, it should be 2D3 shots instead of 1D6.

Sidebar: Can the Chaplain Dreadnought take a Relic? I can't really see why not unless I'm missing something but I feel like giving it the Shroud of Heroes would be pretty awesome.

I haven't seen too many people extolling the virtues of The Talonmaster on here, and that genuinely surprises me. Either everyone has come to the same conclusion (he's ridiculously good) and there's no more reason to talk about it, or you guys haven't tried him out yet. He NEEDS the Heavenfall Blade, but once he has it the Talonmaster is Death incarnate.

In 3 games so far, he is unequivocally the MVP and he has been shredding enemy units. As someone who has played a dozen games with Saint Celestine (who everyone agrees is one of the very best characters in 8th Ed.) I'm not far off from calling the Talonmaster better. He's not nearly as tough, but he will kill way more bad guys in a game than she will.

I can't think of a better all around character, he's fast, he buffs, he shoots like 2 Razorbacks, he's nasty in melee, and he's all but immune to enemy shooting. Keep him properly screened and he will tear up a lot of battlefields. The reviewer really should put A+++ for him.

Special mention must also go out to Azrael. Most of the Space Marine players I've run up against spend 3 CP's to upgrade to a Chapter Master. With his bonus point, Azrael puts me up 4 CP's over the other guy for like an extra 80 points.

A lot of people on YouTube weren't very impressed with Codex: Dark Angels, so far I have been. Grim Resolve has been decent, Intractable, Speed of the Raven, and Weapons of the Dark Age are excellent, the relics are good, Interromancy is respectable, and all the characters are solid.

The only "Dark Angel special" units I've run so far are Black Knights and the Company Champion. Knights were pretty good, they tend to attract a lot of bullets. The Champion is a steal, he's been a loyal bodyguard to Azrael and has saved his life twice from assaults and heavy weapons fire.

Thanks for the feedback so far on my review. Looks like I've made a few errors that I will fix at the next opportunity. Keep them coming please.

I think the Talonmaster is ok, not A+++.
BF3+ on a plattform with heavy weapons that is supposed to move at all times makes him miss half his shots because of the -1 to hit for heavy weapons. In melee hes great, yes. But that is every other Lieutenant aswell.
His anti cover bubble sounds fun, but for weapons that have DS-3 already and so many invulsaves I don't think it's such a huge boost.
A good and well designed unit for sure. But not a "must take" unit. (haven't tried him yet though)
My conclusion: solid B+/A-

#################

I'm still thinking about using Company Veterans in my LR instead of DWK, because they are just so much more versatile.

(LR Redeemer, Asmodai, Lieutenant with Heavenfall Blade and 2 5-Man Vet Squads)

Please take a look at this loadout and discuss:

5 Man Vet Squad: 171 Points (167 if you switch the Hammer for a Fist)
- 4 Vets (Plasmagun, Powersword/Powermaul)
- 1 Sergeant (Plasmapistol, Thunderhammer)

When they get out of their LandRaider they can still move and shoot as normal. Let's assume you make it into rapid fire range, which is not too uncommon.
You get 9 Plasma shots (per Vet Squad, so 18 total), which is enough to make use of WOTDA. Reroll 1s to wound, unfortunately no to hit rerolls (unless you get one of our mobile buff units close enough aswell).
In melee you get 12 S4 DS-3 /S6 DS-1 Attacks (depends on whether you take mauls or swords, I think I would take a mixture of both I think.) and 4 S8 DS-3 D3 Attacks - per vet squad. Reroll all hits and wound rolls of 1. In addition you get 4 Attacks from the Lieutenant with his Heavenfall Blade at S6 DS-3 DD3 and Asmodais 4 Attacks.

You can either charge both vet squads into 1 enemy unit or split them up. (make sure to keep them both in bubble range).

Points wise: 342 for the Vets, 348 for the LR, 130 for Asmodai and 67 for the Lieutenant = 887 Points. Quite a lot.
If you swapped vets for DWK you would end up with 795 Points (although I think they don't need the Lieutenant as they deal enough damage in melee even without him.)

Conclusion:
Pros:
For just 92 Points more you get a unit that is very potent in melee, but not quite as potent as DWK. They compensate this with 18 Plasmashots of which half can be buffed by WOTDA.

Cons:
- You don't get any rerolls to hits and overcharging your plasma may end up crippling your unit.
- Your LR might get blown up early, leaving your units behind (Although they are armed with plasma guns so they can at least shoot stuff ;-) ).


What do you think?
Would it be better to put vets in Rhinos or Razorbacks and rush them up the field?

The talonmaster seems good, but Sableclaw seems better. More expensive but he hits on a 3+ while moving re-rolling 1s with his heavy weapons, has the same number of attacks in CC with a better weapon, has an additional wound and a 4++ save. All for 30ish extra points. Of course you can take both and they help each other out to become quite the pair.

Ok, I had some unexpected free time this afternoon so here's my initial response. I'll post an updated review soon.

Breng77 wrote:
Just a note- when you mention weapons of the dark age you have 6 inceptors as 6d3 shots. Remember each inceptors has 2 plasma exterminators so 6 of the would have 12d3(24) shots. point for point the are the most efficient target for WOTDA.

10 Black knights = 460 points for 20 shots = 23 points per shot
10 Helblasters = 330 points for 20 shots (if you get in range) 16.5 points per shot (350 points for assault version of you want more range on double shots 17.5 points per shot)
6 plasma inceptors = 354 points for an average of 24 shots or 14.75 points per shot.

One note is helblasters have better AP and durability

I'll make sure I correct that. Thanks!

Swillsswil wrote:I feel that you did Asmodai an injustice by not calling out Deathwing Knights. Reroll misses and +1 atk (which stacks with DW ancient) is a great combo.

I dismissed it in my head due to my habit of deep striking. Thanks for the input. I'll add my thoughts in.

ph34r wrote:For a venerable dreadnought you can also go twin las + twin auto if you don't want the somewhat weak missile launcher.

I totally missed that, and it sounds like a great combination. I'll add it in.

bobafett012 wrote:While I don't agree with all of his assessments, the psychic powers are bad, like really really bad, except for 2. Aversion is extremely good, and righteous repugnance is really good. The rest are terrible, period.

I'd love to hear more about what you don't agree with. I agree righteous repugnance is a good power, just not for us. Put that with Blood Angels, or any assault army (tyranids/khorne etc) and it would be amazing. Even so, it's probably still the second best power we have behind Aversion.

ZergSmasher wrote:I don't think units with Fly can fall back and then charge again in the same turn as the review seemed to say. White Scars can due to their Chapter Tactics, but our boys in green cannot unfortunately.

and...

Chaos_Lord_Tom wrote:I think I see many rules misundertandings in this analysos such as charging after fallback or firing heavy flamers after advancing.

Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.

OOPS. Thank you both. This is exactly the sort of thing I needed to have pointed out. It's so easy to think you know the rules that you gloss over something.

Aaranis wrote:I see you're all quick to dismiss our Librarians. I plan on using at least one in every game with DA, because the powers Mind Worm, Aversion and Righteous Repugnance are very good, especially the last one. It may be difficult to cast with a WC7, but giving rerolls to Hit AND to Wound on a unit of Deathwing Knights is really appealing, it frees you of using Belial or a Chaplain for the rerolls to Hit, and nothing else allows you to reroll all failed to Wound rolls. Anyone tried this ?

WC7 is a 58% chance of casting, before you consider that your enemy might deny it, or make it harder somehow (Shadow in the Warp). For a few less points you can have a chaplain guaranteeing the re-rolls to hit, albeit without the rerolls to wound. I like reliable options.

Aeri wrote:I'm still thinking about using Company Veterans in my LR instead of DWK, because they are just so much more versatile.

(LR Redeemer, Asmodai, Lieutenant with Heavenfall Blade and 2 5-Man Vet Squads)

Exactly how I see land raiders being used. Much better than putting terminators of any variety in, and thus 'wasting' the points you spent on their deep strike ability.

I think SableClaw and the Talon Master make a wicked combo but even alone the Talon Master is excellent, but Breng77's comment is valid if you have the extra 30 points.

As for the best use of our plasma stratagem I think people are forgetting to account for reroll aura's when considering it. Interceptors seem like a great point to plasma ratio but you have to consider the fact that if you want them to reroll 1's to hit and wound you're spending a lot of points on a characters with jump packs to make that happen. Hell Blasters and Devastator squads with plasma will already be around your firebase to make use of those rerolls with the rest of your army. Same with Black Knights potentially if you take Sammael and a Talon Master, if not same issue as the Inceptors. And the Devastator squad has more ablative wounds before losing effectiveness.

I think the Talon Master (with Heavenfall Blade) is the hidden gem of the book. You will get a bunch of people who say he isn't THAT good but they are insane haha.... okay that was harsh. Just small 'c' crazy.

I can't believe people are complaining about his 3 bs... you do see how popular 'assback' razorbacks are? Picture that, but better... in every way! Great in combat, flies, has great buffs, can't be targeted by enemy fire. It's good. It's definitely A++ good. You probably should accompany him with Sammael (either incarnation) because he is equally good (possibly better) and will offset that -1 to hit.

I agree Samael is better for a mere 30 extra points, but I cannot bring myself to run Azrael and Sammy together or Sammy and the Talonmaster together without feeling really dirty.

My gaming group is casual competitive so I always at least try to not go super over the top. I generally avoid using more than one special character.

So... where are people getting the models for Sableclaw and Talonmasters?

 djones520 wrote:
So... where are people getting the models for Sableclaw and Talonmasters?

I have sable claw from the old RW battleforce. I think these days you need to by the RW upgrade pack from GW, which is currently out of stock. They are basically a speeder with extra bits. I had extra bits from back in the day (I bought 2 or 3 of that old battleforce and never needed to make more than 1 sableclaw) so built my talon master recently.

 djones520 wrote:
So... where are people getting the models for Sableclaw and Talonmasters?

Speeder + Ravenwing Upgrade sprue

 vonjankmon wrote:
I think SableClaw and the Talon Master make a wicked combo but even alone the Talon Master is excellent, but Breng77's comment is valid if you have the extra 30 points.

As for the best use of our plasma stratagem I think people are forgetting to account for reroll aura's when considering it. Interceptors seem like a great point to plasma ratio but you have to consider the fact that if you want them to reroll 1's to hit and wound you're spending a lot of points on a characters with jump packs to make that happen. Hell Blasters and Devastator squads with plasma will already be around your firebase to make use of those rerolls with the rest of your army. Same with Black Knights potentially if you take Sammael and a Talon Master, if not same issue as the Inceptors. And the Devastator squad has more ablative wounds before losing effectiveness.

The devs lose efficiency if you put in too many ablative wounds. As do helblasters if they are standing with your firebase. Deepstriking near Sammy (16" move + 6" aura + 19" base+ range at minimum and no different from using black knights except easier to get in range) or taking a master with JP is no big deal. It does depend on your army though, but I usually have 3+ HQ choices and so making 1 a JP master is easy to do.

Awesome, thanks for that info guys. I'll have to keep an eye out for when they get stock back in.

You can also just order bits for the speeder assault cannon, and heavy bolter. You won't have all the extra DA bits but it will work.

 djones520 wrote:
So... where are people getting the models for Sableclaw and Talonmasters?

Mine is a multi part conversion between a landspeeder, champion from the black knight box, and the ravenwing upgrade sprue I believe has all the weapon parts.

 anticitizen013 wrote:
The other downside of the Vengeance is that it has a large variance of shots. There are turns where you will roll a 1, or turns where you will roll a 6. Either way, I would much rather take something else for the points. I prefer reliability (or at least better odds). In my opinion, it should be 2D3 shots instead of 1D6.

Sidebar: Can the Chaplain Dreadnought take a Relic? I can't really see why not unless I'm missing something but I feel like giving it the Shroud of Heroes would be pretty awesome.

According to the codex any character can take a dark angels relic, so yep, you can give the chaplain dreadnought a relic, it's very limited as it can't replace its weapons but eye of night and shroud of heroes works.

I have a couple lists I'm tinkering with. The first one is what I'm trying to mold into a relatively competitive army:

Battalion and Supreme Command detachments
Azrael - 180
Talonmaster - heavenfall blade - 188
3x5 Scouts - 165
10 Hellblasters - 330
8 RWB - 216
Sammael on Sableclaw - 216
10 DWK - watcher - 500
Terminator Librarian - force axe, stormbolter- 132
Lieutenant - power sword - 64
1996

Basically, Azrael and the Lieutenant camp out with the Hellblasters and nukes something(s) big every turn with WotDA. Bikes roll up to impede enemy movement and act as a screen for Sammael and the Talonmaster. DWK and the librarian drop in and probably spread out to take up as much space as possible, maybe multi-charging, if good targets exist. Abuse Hunt the Fallen as able. The libby will have Aversion and RR to make the DWK truly amazing in combat and maybe protect them from return fire and melee. Scouts are speed bumps and drop screens. Thoughts?

The second list is similar but focuses more on flanking in spectacular fashion than containment. I'm also going for the Company Champion spam I mentioned earlier to see how that works. The champions pod in behind the bikes for protewction. With so many forward units, I'm thinking Sammael may be a better warlord choice than Azrael for all the various movement rerolls, but it's pretty hard to give up the extra ~3-4 CP Azrael offers. Rerolling charges, I should get 4-5ish champions into combat when they drop. That's not half bad!

Battalion and Vanguard detachments
Azrael - 180
Talonmaster - heavenfall blade - 188
4x5 Scouts - 220
10 Hellblasters - 330
8 RWB - combi-plasma, 2 plasma guns - 257
Sammael on Sableclaw - 216
7 Company Champions - 280
Drop Pod - stormbolter - 85
5 DWK - 250
1973

I think it's no bueno on that second list, more than half your list is going into reserves.

Yeah, that's an issue I'm not certain of. Since all the champions are in a transport, does it count as 10 units or just 1? Worst case scenario, it looks like I have 11 to drop in and 8 on the board, so I'd need to dump a couple champions or something.

Edit: Okay, after some rules digging and a YMDC thread, I fixed the second list above. Details, details! After ading a second plasma gun to the bikes, I'll have 14pts to blow somewhere.

Yeah the reserve limit has been an issue for me when working with podding champs in. You could do what I've been doing, and lose two more champs. The 80 points you save there plus your 14 you have left over will buy you a unit of 5 company vets with chainswords and storm bolters to stick in the pod with the champs. You lose 6 really nice melee attacks, but gain 16 basic attacks and more importantly, you gain 20 storm bolter shots. This can be highly useful in clearing screens so your champs can get to the good stuff. Maybe even use the remaining 4 points to throw a power sword on the Sgt. In any case, you can also use the bodyguard rule from the vets to help keep your champs alive and blenderizing bad guys.

Got a few games in with the new Codex. I'm running a Battalion and a Vanguard - very similar to my Index list that was decent in the summer but with some tweaks: Battalion: Azrael, Lieutenant, Champion, Chapter Ancient, three Scout Squads, one Tactical Squad, one Devastator Squad and a full ten-man Hellblaster Sqd with Incinerators. Vanguard: Belial, Librarian in Terminator Armour, Deathwing Knights, Deathwing Terminator Squad, and Deathwing Champion.

The Hellblasters have been amazing. Working with Azrael, the Lieutenant and Weapons from the Dark Age (WoDA) they deleted squads and vehicles with ease. They need support, of course, and I treat them as the main effort/decisive element of the detachment. I think that if you are running Hellblasters you need to commit to them. WoDA is what led me to go with a ten man squad, and Grim Resolve gives some relief from morale losses. Regarding Supercharge, while the Ancient gives a little piece of mind, I am looking for the points for a Apothecary.

I am quite happy with Grim Resolve. Sniper Scouts and Devastators like it since they don't need a character around to micromanage all the time. It makes bigger squads an option now as well.

The Deathwing detachment was its usual quirky self - a fantastic if expensive distraction force. The Deathwing Terminators teleporting with Belial and using the Deathwing Assault strategem certainly cleared out bubble wrap, but this also made follow up charges kinda hard...When the Deathwing Knights made it into combat they were, of course, wrecking balls. Inspired by the Deathwing Ancient and fueled by Righteous Repugnance they utterly demolished whatever they met. Synchronization is the centre of gravity of this Deathwing detachment. If they keep together they are unstopppable. If they get unsynched through quirky charge rolls, though, they literally come apart.

The Librarian was hit and miss. Good old Smite worked a charm and he actually drew First Blood in the Psychic Phase when he rolled an 11! Aversion is still a keeper. Righteous Repugnance is great when it goes off since I don't have a Lieutenant that can feasibly go with the Knights. It only went off half the time, though, and it ate CP rerolls as well! I kept Belial nearby as insurance for the hits. Low point for my Terminator Librarian thus far has been failing two casts in the same turn and then failing to kill a solitary Tau Drone in the Fight Phase. He's new but at least he's trying.

I'll give a Ravenwing detachment a whirl a fre times as the mobile element in place of the Deathwing, but the Hellblaster core is staying.

Two lists i'm looking at right now, very similar, only real difference is in the Heavy Support.

#1
Azrael
Master with Jump pack

Tactical x 10 w/ Missile, and Plasma
Tactical x 10 w/ Missile, and Plasma
Tactical x 10 w/ Missile, and Plasma

Inceptors x5 w/ Plasma
Inceptors x5 w/ Plasma

Hellblaster x10 w/ Standard Plasma
Hellblaster x10 w/ Standard Plasma

#2

Azrael
Master with Jump pack

Tactical x 10 w/ Missile, and Plasma
Tactical x 10 w/ Missile, and Plasma
Tactical x 10 w/ Missile, and Plasma

Inceptors x5 w/ Plasma
Inceptors x5 w/ Plasma

Predator w/ Autocannon and Lascannon Sponsons
Predator w/ Autocannon and Lascannon Sponsons
Predator w/ Autocannon and Lascannon Sponsons

Option number one gives me a lot more bodies on the table, so a bit more survivability. I think option two gives me some more diverse firepower. Eitherway, Azrael will be hanging in the back supporting the HS options, while the Master comes in with the Inceptors to protect them from 1's.

 djones520 wrote:
Two lists i'm looking at right now, very similar, only real difference is in the Heavy Support.

scouts

 axisofentropy wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
Two lists i'm looking at right now, very similar, only real difference is in the Heavy Support.

scouts

I've heard multiple people say that. Is it that much of a deal?

When you consider deepstrike and infiltrate mechanics yes. Consider this you put a unit at the edge of you deployment zone, then scouts ~18" beyond that. Now those deepstrike units need to be 9" further. So they end up 27" away from the things you really care about.

How are you guys running your Company Veterans? (Besides the plasma squad, of course)

I'm liking them in units of 5 with Stormshield and powersword with a chaplain in a Rhino. Of course, keep them away from mass low-quality fire because they'll die just as easy as Tacticals costing double the points. But they do a nice and relatively cheap anti-elite unit.

I have other unit with two Chainswords that I run on a Razorback. Basically their only job is to munch the hordes that normally try to stop the tank from firing. They are cheap and work well, but I believe Reivers would be better for that role.
Company Veterans have half the wounds, and lose the -1ap Boltpistol. But they can enter the tank and are 2ppm cheaper. 4ppm if you take grav-chutes or grapel launchers for the Reivers to keep up with the tank.

I'm thinking of making a unit of 5 with two plasma pistols a head (And combiplasma por the sargeant). A squad of mini Cyphers. I don't know how good they will be... probably not very much. But they'll look sick AF. Basically you are paying 1 point more (14 for 2 pistols instead of 13 for a gun), losing any shooting capacity between 13"-24", having the same in 2-12", and being able to shoot into combat.
A big difference is that with a pistol, you die with a 1, but with a gun, you die in a 1 AFTER all the shoots have been made.

I'd use them for horde control. It keeps them really cheap and fills a void that my armies typically aren't all that great at without significant attention during lost building.

How do you equip them for horde control? Double chainsword? Flamers? (to be honest i believe chainsword+stormbolter is a much better build than flamer. Cheaper and obly loses in overwatch)