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2018/03/18 03:39:04
Subject: Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
godardc wrote: He is the real government (who else, if not him ?), but the people he fights are not his citizens: they don't even have the same flag. They seceded from their own country. Would you say that the Confederates were citizens of the Union ?
Yes. We do consider the Confederates to have been citizens of the Union.
2018/03/18 04:00:20
Subject: Re:Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
BaronIveagh wrote: Getting back to the OP Novichok being pretty rare, Russia is now claiming that the entire operation was smuggled out of the country and they have no idea where it's being made now, accusing Sweden, the Chechs, and a variety of other non-Russian aligned actors with it.
Now Russia is claiming we made the nerve agent and released it a few miles from Porton Down, which is apparently is supposed to be suspicious in itself.
We don’t go in for bizarre assassinations using exotic secret weapons, especially the those that injure our own public. We don’t live in a V for Vendetta world just yet where we carry out Machiavellian schemes to smear other nations by carrying out terrorist attacks on our own public.
What is telling is that the Russian suggest that we’d do this, which is more of a reflection upon their attitude to human life and scheming rather than a realistic critic of the UK. We know the Russian solution to a terror attack after all is to gas their own public to death and refuse to reveal what it was to treat them.
2018/03/18 10:48:57
Subject: Re:Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
Theresa May: What evil plot of evil can I unleash today?
Civil Servant: You could try slashing pension and disability benefits and denying access to claimants for months on end on thin technicalities.
Theresa May: I am bored of that, the pesky peons just limp off to food banks, I need something more racey.
Civil Servant: We could poison our own citizens and blame a third party.
Theresa May: *Laughs* That sounds like fun, let's do that.
Civil Servant: We can dump some industrial cleaning agent into the water supply.
Theresa May: Too slow, and I want something that will guarantee headlines.
Civil Servant: We could develop chemical weapons infrastructure, brew up some nasty nerve agents and distribute them through car exhausts on a specially modified vehicle.
Theresa May: No, no. the medical services wont know what it is and its too random. We want to hit something specific. Then I could go on the telly and fix it.
Civil Servant: You could poison a dissident.
Theresa May: No, it might get back to me. How about we poison a foreign dissident living in the UK and blame their native country.
Civil Servant: Which country, France?
Theresa May: No, not the French its no challenge, How about we piss off the Russians.
Civil Servant: Very well, madam Prime Minister. We establish a chemical weapons facility, train agents in distribute the weaponised form and spray it into the open near some Russian dissidents.
Theresa May: Yes, yes that's it. Won't it be fun.
Civil Servant: I will get right onto it ma'am.
Peals of evil laughter is heard.
TRANSCRIPT ENDS
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2018/03/18 11:19:57
Subject: Re:Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
Orlanth wrote: Theresa May: What evil plot of evil can I unleash today?
Civil Servant: You could try slashing pension and disability benefits and denying access to claimants for months on end on thin technicalities.
Theresa May: I am bored of that, the pesky peons just limp off to food banks, I need something more racey.
Civil Servant: We could poison our own citizens and blame a third party.
Theresa May: *Laughs* That sounds like fun, let's do that.
Civil Servant: We can dump some industrial cleaning agent into the water supply.
Theresa May: Too slow, and I want something that will guarantee headlines.
Civil Servant: We could develop chemical weapons infrastructure, brew up some nasty nerve agents and distribute them through car exhausts on a specially modified vehicle.
Theresa May: No, no. the medical services wont know what it is and its too random. We want to hit something specific. Then I could go on the telly and fix it.
Civil Servant: You could poison a dissident.
Theresa May: No, it might get back to me. How about we poison a foreign dissident living in the UK and blame their native country.
Civil Servant: Which country, France?
Theresa May: No, not the French its no challenge, How about we piss off the Russians.
Civil Servant: Very well, madam Prime Minister. We establish a chemical weapons facility, train agents in distribute the weaponised form and spray it into the open near some Russian dissidents.
Theresa May: Yes, yes that's it. Won't it be fun.
Civil Servant: I will get right onto it ma'am.
Peals of evil laughter is heard.
TRANSCRIPT ENDS
I don't know why you think this is a joking matter. *puts on tinfoil hat* The US Government has been poisoning US citizens with chem trails and fluoride in the drinking water for ages. The world government is in on this and the reptilians are controlling them from the other side of the flat earth! The earth is really just a giant triangle because we are on the spaceship Illuminati! When are you sheeple going to wake up! SHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEPLE!
2018/03/18 11:50:06
Subject: Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
Ketara wrote: In other words, the very nature of this particular chemical beast dictates that it has to have been made recently ( as opposed to being a leftover from the original stockpile), and that a huge amount of extremely specialist knowledge and skills across multiple people/teams utilised in its employment. Whilst that does not guarantee it is not a state actor beyond all possibility, it being the Yakuza or something is about as likely as ISIS suddenly firing a hydrogen bomb. You just don't find that kind of assortment of skills, funding, and equipment allied together outside of the state.
And the point being we are still in the investigation stage and any accusation at the moment is premature. I do think the state acted on this, but there needs to be more certainty than "Made in Russia". I do not doubt the technically capability of those creating the chemical in the first place. However the manufacture is likely designed to be simplistic as possible. The point of a weapon of this grade is to take something out quickly and then for it to degrade quickly so your own armed forces can take over the territory quickly after a short period of time. You want to be able to manufacture such material quickly in vast quantities using standard industrial processes. There is no point having something so specialised that one cruise missile strike can take out the whole process. If as suggested this material comes in two parts, assuming an 'easy' manufacturing process that allows you to distribute the manufacturing more widely where a single strike won't take down the whole process. Accidents at the manufacturing facilities also are less hazardous to the staff and/or less of a critical problem to supply the material. You can also manufacture the individual components easier without raising suspicion (it's just an agricultural chemical for example). This likely hence means that anyone with a drug lab based chemistry set probably can also create the material if they have the chemical make up.
Not what I was referring to. I believe that there is a form of nuclear signature which actually allows you to attribute what type of nuclear material was used, where it originated from, and how/where it was processed. It's not a case of watching the missile. Something to do with radiation, I don't know the details.
I think this might be confusion between the polonium poisoning and general fissile material in a bomb. A basic nuclear weapon just needed enriched uranium. The fallout is a product of where it hits, the ground make up and so on. It's an uncontrolled process so the outputs are subject to missile design/contamination and so forth. It is slightly different when compared to material that comes from 'breeder' reactors. They are all internationally monitored and because the design is fixed and has a certain input specification then the isotopes you get out of each one is highly constrained. You can't just isolate each of these components (so for example the different isotopes of polonium that are created). Hence each reactor has a specific signature fingerprint. Hence you can point back to exactly where the material originated from. So if you are talking about tracking back polonium poisoning events then you are correct. For a general nuclear strike it is not that simple and trajectory (of ballistic missiles) is a much better indicator of the source.
You claim that the evidence is 'circumstantial', but you have absolutely no information beyond what the state has chosen to release at this preliminary stage. I daresay the people over at Scotland Yard have far more detail and evidence than we do; and working on the balance of probabilities, if they say it was Russia at this stage? I'm inclined to believe them. Too little in the way of motivation to lie that doesn't stray into crackpot territory.
To quote Scotland Yard on the bbc website (yesterday):-
Metropolitan Police Assistant Commissioner Neil Basu said the "prime focus" of the investigation, which could take months, was how the poison was administered.
Hence the investigation is only just being gathered. Until we have the most evidence we can then action should be taken. Anything before that runs the risk of embarassment.
I actually addressed this in the other thread, if you go and look. Ending up in the awkward situation of multi-threading a subject here, might be best to start confining to one. My fun idea was to start playing in the Ukraine. We could even have fun with cyber-attacks and suchlike heading back in their direction. As Putin is so wonderfully demonstrating, there are many ways of subverting and undermining which don't involve actual declarations of war.
What does that actually achieve though by taking action on the soil of another country that likely isn't involved at all? Does that not strain relations with that country? Does that not just give justification to the nonsense that Russia pushes out that we are in some ways doing this ourselves. Does that not affect the Ukrainian population rather than impact . This all assumes that we are better at this than Russia. Whereas we likely have better technical standards we don't have the resources pushed into it that this type of action needs. We'd be trying to fight a battle that we will likely lose at a cyber level. On the other hand perhaps we could put investment into the east of the country to help bring forward the quality of people's lives, turning them against the idea that Russia is better? Win the hearts and minds rather than justify the misinformation that Russia inflicts on them.
Pasted over from the UK pols thread
I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own...
2018/03/18 12:08:31
Subject: Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
godardc wrote: He is the real government (who else, if not him ?), but the people he fights are not his citizens: they don't even have the same flag. They seceded from their own country. Would you say that the Confederates were citizens of the Union ?
Yes. We do consider the Confederates to have been citizens of the Union.
Of course this is a legal position that is only tenable because the Union won the war. Had the Confederacy endured to settlement or won themselves its unlikely such a decision would hold any real weight, if ever made at all.
As sad and miserable a reality it is, at the end of the day these things really just come down to who's still standing when the guns fall silent.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/18 12:10:05
It’s really not that easy to cook up drugs, explosives and poisons using a home lab. Syntheses are complex with various hazards, and toxic waste disposal quickly draws attention. Equipment isn’t that easy to acquire and precursors to manufacture aren’t easily obtainable even through illegal channels. Most illegal drug synthesis is done to a poor standard, but druggies aren’t so discerning. But chemical weapons improperly prepared are probably more hazardous to the manufacturer, or simply aren’t effective. Likelihood is that this chemical attack was state sponsored and resources, not an independent operation.
2018/03/18 12:56:52
Subject: Re:Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2018/03/18 18:38:26
Subject: Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
Now Russia is claiming we made the nerve agent and released it a few miles from Porton Down, which is apparently is supposed to be suspicious in itself.
We don’t go in for bizarre assassinations using exotic secret weapons, especially the those that injure our own public. We don’t live in a V for Vendetta world just yet where we carry out Machiavellian schemes to smear other nations by carrying out terrorist attacks on our own public.
What is telling is that the Russian suggest that we’d do this, which is more of a reflection upon their attitude to human life and scheming rather than a realistic critic of the UK. We know the Russian solution to a terror attack after all is to gas their own public to death and refuse to reveal what it was to treat them.
I have to question the UK doing something like this because it's too complicated. I hate to say it, but when you Brits want someone dead, their house/car/boat suddenly explodes and that's pretty much that. Poison tends to be a Russian thing. DMSO and Mercury or some other toxin. Novichok 5 is pretty much their thing alone, and, it's amazing that losing a whole weapons program to 'someplace' isn't something they've brought up earlier. Say, in the 2000's, half a decade after they all mysteriously vanished, or so, since back in 1995 it was a poison favored by Russian spies, according to Russian spies.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
2018/03/18 19:05:57
Subject: Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
Or at least the moment the UK said “give us a viable alternative” they didn’t immediately go “well, scientists defected to country x and y” or are we supposed to believe that not only did the program all leak out of the country but they also made no subsequent attempts to keep track of it?
But then according to the Russian government the program never existed in the first place.
Russia has been stockpiling the nerve agent used in the attack on an ex-spy and his daughter over the last decade, Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson says.
He also dismissed a suggestion by Russia's EU ambassador that the agent might have come from a UK laboratory.
Vladimir Chizhov had said the Porton Down lab in Wiltshire may have been the source of the substance.
Sergei and Yulia Skripal remain critically ill in hospital after being exposed to the substance in Salisbury.
They were found slumped on a bench in the Wiltshire city on 4 March.
Prime Minister Theresa May has said Russia is "culpable" for the attack.
Unconfirmed reports from the US suggest that the nerve agent used may have been introduced into the ventilation system of a car belonging to Mr Skripal.
Experts from the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) will arrive in the UK on Monday to test samples of the chemical.
The results are expected to take a "minimum of two weeks", the Foreign Office said.
What are Novichok nerve agents?
UK Prime Minister Theresa May told MPs that Porton Down - Britain's military research base - identified the substance used as being part of a group of military-grade nerve agents known as Novichok developed by the Soviet Union.
Mr Johnson told the BBC's Andrew Marr Show: "We actually have evidence within the last 10 years that Russia has not only been investigating the delivery of nerve agents for the purposes of assassination, but has also been creating and stockpiling Novichok."
He said Russia's reaction to the incident "was not the response of a country that really believes itself to be innocent".
]
I’m guessing GCHQ or MI6 we’re able to provide some evidence to the government and allies that won’t be public about Russia.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/03/18 19:10:46
insaniak wrote: Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
2018/03/18 19:44:13
Subject: Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
Steve steveson wrote: Or at least the moment the UK said “give us a viable alternative” they didn’t immediately go “well, scientists defected to country x and y” or are we supposed to believe that not only did the program all leak out of the country but they also made no subsequent attempts to keep track of it?
But then according to the Russian government the program never existed in the first place.
Russia has been stockpiling the nerve agent used in the attack on an ex-spy and his daughter over the last decade, Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson says.
He also dismissed a suggestion by Russia's EU ambassador that the agent might have come from a UK laboratory.
Vladimir Chizhov had said the Porton Down lab in Wiltshire may have been the source of the substance.
Sergei and Yulia Skripal remain critically ill in hospital after being exposed to the substance in Salisbury.
They were found slumped on a bench in the Wiltshire city on 4 March.
Prime Minister Theresa May has said Russia is "culpable" for the attack.
Unconfirmed reports from the US suggest that the nerve agent used may have been introduced into the ventilation system of a car belonging to Mr Skripal.
Experts from the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) will arrive in the UK on Monday to test samples of the chemical.
The results are expected to take a "minimum of two weeks", the Foreign Office said.
What are Novichok nerve agents?
UK Prime Minister Theresa May told MPs that Porton Down - Britain's military research base - identified the substance used as being part of a group of military-grade nerve agents known as Novichok developed by the Soviet Union.
Mr Johnson told the BBC's Andrew Marr Show: "We actually have evidence within the last 10 years that Russia has not only been investigating the delivery of nerve agents for the purposes of assassination, but has also been creating and stockpiling Novichok."
He said Russia's reaction to the incident "was not the response of a country that really believes itself to be innocent".
]
I’m guessing GCHQ or MI6 we’re able to provide some evidence to the government and allies that won’t be public about Russia.
Well yes I am certain GCHQ or MI6 can provide evidence the Russians did but then I am equally sure they have form when it comes down to WMD's and could prove you or I did it if requested by there paymasters.
On another note apparently May and the Tories withheld info from Corby and Labour in an attempt to stir up gak. Which really does not surprise me and makes all there hollow bleating about Labour playing politics when pointing out that the Tories are bought and paid for by the Russians there normal hypocrisy.
Even forgetting the money don't forget codename "Boris" and his multiple meetings with Russian intelligence which he denies despite.a number of photos proving otherwise.
Your last point is especially laughable and comical, because not only the 7th ed Valkyrie shown dumber things (like being able to throw the troopers without parachutes out of its hatches, no harm done) - Irbis
2018/03/18 20:47:05
Subject: Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
Well yes I am certain GCHQ or MI6 can provide evidence the Russians did but then I am equally sure they have form when it comes down to WMD's and could prove you or I did it if requested by there paymasters.
Blair exaggerated to the point of deception from what he was handed by intelligence. They had their own blind spots certainly (boy did they); but it's not entirely fair to blame them for Blair's grandstanding. Their dossier differed substantially from what he showed to Parliament, and even to an extent, his own cabinet.
On another note apparently May and the Tories withheld info from Corby and Labour in an attempt to stir up gak. Which really does not surprise me and makes all there hollow bleating about Labour playing politics when pointing out that the Tories are bought and paid for by the Russians there normal hypocrisy.
Even forgetting the money don't forget codename "Boris" and his multiple meetings with Russian intelligence which he denies despite.a number of photos proving otherwise.
Yes, yes. Evil Tories, sell their own mothers, rank hypocrites, ruining our country, don't trust strange men called Boris, what a swell guy that Corbyn is, etcetc.
Anyway, the vague insinuations of the Russian embassy/government really have cemented my view that this was them. They keep linking irrelevant facts to it, deliberately try to mislead people over the science involved, and generally keep acting like their purpose isn't to credibly deny it was them; but rather to try and confuse the laypeople. Sow the seeds of discord and confusion, as it were. Which fits in perfectly with their stated intelligence strategy MO over the last half a decade. There would be absolutely no need to do this if they were in no way culpable; and as Killkrazy said earlier, it's as if they actively want people to believe that our government would undertake the same sort of reprehensible actions their one does.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/18 20:49:17
2018/03/18 21:21:48
Subject: Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
godardc wrote: He is the real government (who else, if not him ?), but the people he fights are not his citizens: they don't even have the same flag. They seceded from their own country. Would you say that the Confederates were citizens of the Union ?
Yes. We do consider the Confederates to have been citizens of the Union.
So, would you say the Union leaders were horrrible dictators killing innocent and should have been destroyed, as some said about the only legitimate government of Syria ?
I would not, and I don't think anyone here would.
In French, we have a saying: deux poids, deux mesures.
Which means basically: to handle two similar situations in opposite ways according to our best interests in defiance of objectivity.
So, if many people have many proof that the russian did it beyond any doubt, why don't they show the proof ?
Is it like the russian interference in the US elections ?
Or the proof that iraqi had wmd ? I am laughing so hard right now
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/18 21:24:26
Russians laugh at death like that. It is part of their culture.
More alarming is the obvious shill of the first reply, probably came from the same office building. The Russians are not even trying to be subtle, but they are being prcise and that is the subtle thing about it. Like suggesting that Sweden was behind it, its ridiculously thin. It sends a different message - 'of course we did it, just you try and prove it'. This precise level of non-ambiguity is what Russia wants as it will show impotence, as the UK is not in a position to act in any meaningful way without proof.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2018/03/18 22:33:37
Subject: Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
godardc wrote: He is the real government (who else, if not him ?), but the people he fights are not his citizens: they don't even have the same flag. They seceded from their own country. Would you say that the Confederates were citizens of the Union ?
Yes. We do consider the Confederates to have been citizens of the Union.
So, would you say the Union leaders were horrrible dictators killing innocent and should have been destroyed, as some said about the only legitimate government of Syria ?
I would not, and I don't think anyone here would.
In French, we have a saying: deux poids, deux mesures.
Which means basically: to handle two similar situations in opposite ways according to our best interests in defiance of objectivity.
So, if many people have many proof that the russian did it beyond any doubt, why don't they show the proof ?
Is it like the russian interference in the US elections ?
Or the proof that iraqi had wmd ? I am laughing so hard right now
Wait, sorry, back it up. When did the Union and the Syrian government become equivalent?
That's a crap comparison, and I think you know it.
2018/03/18 23:23:50
Subject: Re:Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
And we're supposed to take that government seriously why again? What's the voter turn out again? 3 times as many people living in Russia today somehow voted for Putin? Yup, Putin's voter base includes people who aren't even born yet...
Meanwhile those who support his government say, "Oh, but the Russian people believe in him, what are numbers?". Government that could get in through popularity alone don't need to stuff ballots.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/18 23:34:12
2018/03/18 23:53:44
Subject: Re:Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
godardc wrote: I have never seen so much russiaphobia before. They are the ones protecting the world by killing terrorist, at least show them some respect because they die for us all.
If the guy down the road spotted a burglar just before he broke in to the neighbour's house, it doesn't mean it is okay for that neighbour to beat his wife.
And now what ? Everytime someone die, it is going to be Russia's fault ?
No, just the ones that have obvious Russian motives and methods.
Just before the FIFA world cup in Russia and the election ? It is pretty obvious that the UK governement
That is absurd conspiracy gibberish. It lacks any evidence or motive, and is basically just pure crap claimed by Russian media surrogates for the purpose of attempting some vague kind of muddying of the issue. You embarrass yourself by repeating that claim here.
How funny that in 24 hours (yes just 24h) my own government went from (official statment): there is no proof, and until we see proof, no comment" to "It is Russia and it is despicable and we should punish the Russian".
You appear to be unaware of how much information can be relayed from one country to another in the space of 24 hours. It's quite a lot. Sufficient evidence of Russian involvement could probably done in 10 minutes.
Do you really believe that in Japan, some guys from a crazy cult of death did manage to produce and use sarin gaz, but a non state actor couldn't make and use just a little dose of this toxin used on the poor russian guy and his daughter ?
Sarin and Novichok are different things, with different challenges in storage and weaponisation. Saying that because one agent can be weaponised by non-state actors, therefore another can be is nonsense.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
godardc wrote: Of course, but now we are in 2018. And just because some country that doesn't even exist anymore did someting wrong and bad 40 years ago, doesn't mean that Russia did it. - they have no motive
The murdered agent previously flipped on Russia, and revealed the identities of possibly up to 300 Russian agents working abroad. Killing him to discourage other possible agents is an obvious motive.
Pretending this doesn't exist is absurd denialism. Don't waste people's time with that crap.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Orlanth wrote: Its an attitude of contempt. The Russian press has been making taunting remarks about how traitors residing in the UK will disappear or meet accidents.
They are working on a bully mentality, very much like the hit man who walks openly down a street guns someone down in broad daylight and expects nobody to see anything and to flatly deny involvement later.
Exactly. Doing it openly is the point. It is a show of strength that establishes one's own power, acting with impunity.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/03/19 04:26:38
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2018/03/19 04:28:11
Subject: Re:Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
BaronIveagh wrote: Getting back to the OP Novichok being pretty rare, Russia is now claiming that the entire operation was smuggled out of the country and they have no idea where it's being made now, accusing Sweden, the Chechs, and a variety of other non-Russian aligned actors with it.
I love this stuff. So the grand plan was to smuggle ultra-high end refinement tech and specialist gear out of the country, set it up in secret in some other country, then have it staffed and maintained for 20 to 30 years in complete secret, so it can be used to kill someone hated by Russia, so that what? Russia's upcoming soccer tournament has reduced international visitors?
I mean honest to God... don't you think if Britain was to do something like this they would have waited until they were in a position of some strength to actually do something meaningful in response. So maybe not when they're fumbling their way through Brexit, and for the first time since the Suez Crisis are unable to count on support from across the Atlantic?
Wouldn't right now be, you know, the best time for Russia push for antagonism? Which, as well as it being a Russian weapon used on a Russian traitor, kind of freaking obvious that Russia did this?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BaronIveagh wrote: I have to question the UK doing something like this because it's too complicated. I hate to say it, but when you Brits want someone dead, their house/car/boat suddenly explodes and that's pretty much that. Poison tends to be a Russian thing. DMSO and Mercury or some other toxin. Novichok 5 is pretty much their thing alone, and, it's amazing that losing a whole weapons program to 'someplace' isn't something they've brought up earlier. Say, in the 2000's, half a decade after they all mysteriously vanished, or so, since back in 1995 it was a poison favored by Russian spies, according to Russian spies.
When Russia became concerned about losses of uranium from its various facilities as the Soviet Union fell apart, they spoke to the Americans regularly about the issue. The Americans set up a fund to make sure any material that was put out for sale got bought by the US. Everyone thought this was great, because end of the day for all the rivalries they're all sensible people who don't like terrorists getting their hands on deadly weapons.
So now we're supposed to believe that expertise to build a deadly nerve agent was lost by Russia, and Russia just didn't say anything to anyone about. Didn't ask for any aid in tracking anyone who might be recruiting experts and buying up specialist gear to build and maintain this stuff.
It's just comical nonsense.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/19 04:56:19
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2018/03/19 07:21:55
Subject: Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
I'm sure the "it is kind of freaking obvious" is comfort to the people thrown for jail for life and only after few decades was it found actually they were innocent from the get-go.
Proof first. Before that everybody is innocent. Unless you follow that principle you are no better than north korea.
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2018/03/19 07:37:59
Subject: Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
Do you really believe that in Japan, some guys from a crazy cult of death did manage to produce and use sarin gaz, but a non state actor couldn't make and use just a little dose of this toxin used on the poor russian guy and his daughter ?
Sarin and Novichok are different things, with different challenges in storage and weaponisation. Saying that because one agent can be weaponised by non-state actors, therefore another can be is nonsense.
Not to mention the Aum Shinri guys numbered in the thousands and had a very high number of highly educated people among them. Producing Sarin (they produced a few hundred grams of VX too btw) is quite easy when you have lots of cash and chemists to equip and staff a proper lab and buy base chemicals without warning bells sounding. And that was in 1995 - today with the War on Terror and everyone spying on everything a civilian actor would risk getting caught before they even collected all the needed stuff. Simple stuff like strong agricultural-use pesticides and fertilizer (easy sources for raw materials in chemical warfare or explosives) are "controlled" today - some can't be bought if you're not a farmer, some flag you to the security services if you buy more than a certain amount.
Nope, this stuff was made with the permission of a state.
2018/03/19 08:39:43
Subject: Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
tneva82 wrote: I'm sure the "it is kind of freaking obvious" is comfort to the people thrown for jail for life and only after few decades was it found actually they were innocent from the get-go.
Proof first. Before that everybody is innocent. Unless you follow that principle you are no better than north korea.
That's the standard for a court of law. But courts have notably high standards required, because the power of the state over its own people is potentially near absolute, we need a very high standard, and the state is able to meet that standard because it has thousands of investigators and technical experts. But away from criminal courts we don't apply those standards, it is neither practical nor desirable.
Even courts go to a balance of probabilities standard for civil matters.
And you know what - if the Russians really want matters like this to be resolved through the restrictions of courts of law, then they could start by accepting Britain's request to extradite Andrei Lugovoy, the spy Britain wants to prosecute for murdering Alexander Litvinenko. It is nothing more than a crude con to insist on courtroom standards of evidence, while simultaneously preventing courtroom prosecutions from taking place.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2018/03/19 08:49:02
Subject: Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
tneva82 wrote: I'm sure the "it is kind of freaking obvious" is comfort to the people thrown for jail for life and only after few decades was it found actually they were innocent from the get-go.
Proof first. Before that everybody is innocent. Unless you follow that principle you are no better than north korea.
This is not a criminal trial. It is international politics. The same rules do not apply. and never have done. For all we know GCHQ have an email from Putin directly saying "Hi Demitri, Good job on killing that traitor. Good to see the stokpile of Novichok is still working, and clever idea putting it in his BMWs AC. See you next week for cocktails at the club. Love Vladdi baby XXXX". I'm being deliberately silly, but the point is that with this situation the rules are very different. This is state to state accusation, and intelligence agencies are involved. This is not a criminal trial, and anyone claiming it should meet the same standards is either woefully misunderstanding or using willfully obscurification.
insaniak wrote: Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
2018/03/19 10:54:38
Subject: Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
godardc wrote: Of course, but now we are in 2018. And just because some country that doesn't even exist anymore did someting wrong and bad 40 years ago, doesn't mean that Russia did it.
- they have no motive
The murdered agent previously flipped on Russia, and revealed the identities of possibly up to 300 Russian agents working abroad. Killing him to discourage other possible agents is an obvious motive.
Pretending this doesn't exist is absurd denialism. Don't waste people's time with that crap.
Why wait 10 years then? If it's about showing agents what happen if you flip to the other side, why dont assassinate him right away? It doesn't come of as show of force if it takes 10 years for the blow to strike!
2018/03/19 11:10:46
Subject: Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
godardc wrote: Of course, but now we are in 2018. And just because some country that doesn't even exist anymore did someting wrong and bad 40 years ago, doesn't mean that Russia did it.
- they have no motive
The murdered agent previously flipped on Russia, and revealed the identities of possibly up to 300 Russian agents working abroad. Killing him to discourage other possible agents is an obvious motive.
Pretending this doesn't exist is absurd denialism. Don't waste people's time with that crap.
Why wait 10 years then? If it's about showing agents what happen if you flip to the other side, why dont assassinate him right away? It doesn't come of as show of force if it takes 10 years for the blow to strike!
Take it or leave it, but the argument is being made by some experts that this was specifically done for the Russian elections to generate a higher turnout for Putin. In manufacturing an international crisis by killing a 'traitor' (which is good PR to kill), Putin could use the West attacking 'innocent' Russia (while state media is nudging and winking its hardest) to boost turnout foŕ him. Putin wanted a big mandate again, in part because these elections were basically rubberstamping his position and it looks terrible if only 50% shows up to stamp it. It seems the recent crisis might have helped him get his biggest 'win' yet (well depending on the amount of fraud).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/19 11:22:02
Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
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2018/03/19 11:54:47
Subject: Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
godardc wrote: Of course, but now we are in 2018. And just because some country that doesn't even exist anymore did someting wrong and bad 40 years ago, doesn't mean that Russia did it.
- they have no motive
The murdered agent previously flipped on Russia, and revealed the identities of possibly up to 300 Russian agents working abroad. Killing him to discourage other possible agents is an obvious motive.
Pretending this doesn't exist is absurd denialism. Don't waste people's time with that crap.
Why wait 10 years then? If it's about showing agents what happen if you flip to the other side, why dont assassinate him right away? It doesn't come of as show of force if it takes 10 years for the blow to strike!
Alexander Litvinenko was murdered 6 years after fleeing Russia. It's not about killing someone, its about the message, both saying "we can get you any time. No matter how safe you think you are we will come for you" and Putin needed a boost in popularity right now internally leading up to the election.
insaniak wrote: Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
2018/03/19 12:01:27
Subject: Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
godardc wrote: Of course, but now we are in 2018. And just because some country that doesn't even exist anymore did someting wrong and bad 40 years ago, doesn't mean that Russia did it.
- they have no motive
The murdered agent previously flipped on Russia, and revealed the identities of possibly up to 300 Russian agents working abroad. Killing him to discourage other possible agents is an obvious motive.
Pretending this doesn't exist is absurd denialism. Don't waste people's time with that crap.
Why wait 10 years then? If it's about showing agents what happen if you flip to the other side, why dont assassinate him right away? It doesn't come of as show of force if it takes 10 years for the blow to strike!
Take it or leave it, but the argument is being made by some experts that this was specifically done for the Russian elections to generate a higher turnout for Putin. In manufacturing an international crisis by killing a 'traitor' (which is good PR to kill), Putin could use the West attacking 'innocent' Russia (while state media is nudging and winking its hardest) to boost turnout foŕ him. Putin wanted a big mandate again, in part because these elections were basically rubberstamping his position and it looks terrible if only 50% shows up to stamp it. It seems the recent crisis might have helped him get his biggest 'win' yet (well depending on the amount of fraud).
But according to all western outlets the Russian election is a big sham, why manufacture an international crisis to boost yourself in a election that you are going to fake anyway?
I think I'm gonna have to leave it
2018/03/19 12:12:57
Subject: Russian Double Agent (and daughter) poisoned in England - Russia behind it?
The election has been meddled with at several levels.
1. Plenty of opposition candidate who had no hope. The only viable candidate was prevented from running.
2. Completely biased coverage on state-controlled media.
3. Compulsory voting to boost turnout, when it seemed the only way to express opposition to Putin was to not vote.
4. Ballot stuffing. (See point 3.)
But remember, Putin like Trump, has his base of supporters who think he's good for Russia. They are people who applaud the murder of "traitors", and will have been pleased to see what happened to Scripal.
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