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 Jidmah wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Well, i've done some math. It takes around 12 overheating plasma shots to kill a trukk and 16 to kill a venom. 7 lazcannon shots to kill a trukk and 9 to kill a venom. A trukk is only more durable vs some s5+ anti-infantry weapons with low ap. Don't forget that a venom shoots better, has fly, is faster, doesn't degrade iirc and is cheaper to boot.

Average damage of an overcharged plasma gun against trukk, including ramshackle: 1.630 = 6.13 shots
Same against venom, including nightshields and flickerfield: 0.889 = 6.76 shots

7 overcharged BS 3+ plasma shots will kill either on average, while the venom might set a few imperials on fire in the process. In reality, venoms will probably not get shot by overcharged plasma

Let's check our calculations.

BS3+ plasma:
vs trukk
2/3 (to hit) * 2/3 (to wound) * (5/6 * 2 + 1/6 * 1) (damage) = 0.815.
10 wounds / 0.815 = 12.26 shots

BS3+ (4+) plasma:
vs venom
1/2 (to hit) * 2/3 (to wound) * 2/3 (save) * 5/6 (fnp) * 2 (damage) = 0.37
6 wounds / 0.37 = 16.22 shots

First of all, I was assuming rapid fire range, so your result is simply half of mine. But yeah, I said "shots" which is misleading when I actually meant "models shooting plasma guns".

Second, you are assuming that all venoms are getting 6+ FNP, which is not true unless they are bought for one specific obsession of the kabal sub-faction. Any army without a Kabal of the Black Heart detachment will not have a single venom with FNP - a pure wytch kult army, for example.
Might as well factor in the KFF for the trukk, which would ruin any advantage the venom has.

Wtf is even going on? I missed the last 3 lages... we come to a conclusion yet or are we still spitting numbers at each other like nerds?

 lolman1c wrote:
Wtf is even going on? I missed the last 3 lages... we come to a conclusion yet or are we still spitting numbers at each other like nerds?

1) There will never be a conclusion - even when the book is out.
2) Math is fun!

The conclusion is trucks don't work for anything other than tankbustas.

Yeah, that's about it.

and I still argue that they don't work for Tankbustas either because target saturation is a thing and by bringing 1-2 trukkz filled with bustas you are opening yourself up to target priority for Anti-armor weapons which will happily forego 1 turn of killing 3-4 Ork boyz to liquidating a Trukk and killing 1-2 Tankbustas in the process.

And I tell you again, that the argument is completely irrelevant if you actually do bring other things for anti-tank weaponry to shoot like KMK, battlewagons, gargantuan squiggoths and dakkajets - all currently showing up in top placing ork lists.

 Jidmah wrote:
Dropping trukks down to half their point cost is ridiculous though. That would put battlewagons at 80 points, and you could do silly things like just buy 10 trukks for the heck of it and wall off parts of the battlefield.

SSHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

I like Orks.

 Jidmah wrote:
First of all, I was assuming rapid fire range, so your result is simply half of mine. But yeah, I said "shots" which is misleading when I actually meant "models shooting plasma guns".

Second, you are assuming that all venoms are getting 6+ FNP, which is not true unless they are bought for one specific obsession of the kabal sub-faction. Any army without a Kabal of the Black Heart detachment will not have a single venom with FNP - a pure wytch kult army, for example.
Might as well factor in the KFF for the trukk, which would ruin any advantage the venom has.

Well the black heart obsession is very common if you want multiple vehicles, maybe just the flayed skull obsession can be preferred over it and with that venoms don't get the 6++ but become killier. But if we talk about competitive games pure wych cult armies are very very uncommon. Since drukhari can spam battallions for cheap a kabal battallion would be included in any competitive list and all the vehicles would be included in that detachment since wych cult bonus don't affect vehicles.

The KFF is a nice advantege for trukks, and in fact I always bring it if I have vehicles but it's another investment in terms of points that must be factored in and I suspect that biker meks would be even cut from the codex.

At the end of the day a min squad of kabalites with a blaster in a venom is just 112 points, have decent firepower and unlocks battallions. This put venoms way over trukks in terms of performance. In 7th edition trukks cost half the points of a venom and no one complained about that. Now trukks are even more expensive than venoms, which also aren't as popular as previous editions when venoms spam was very common. There's some issue in this thing that must be fixed and IMHO it can't be fixed if trukks are more than 50-55 points and the units embarked don't get significant buffs. Again I'd accept 70 points trukks only if the units embarked become really really strong. What really matters is the combo transport+unit embarked and its sinergy with the rest of the army not the single profile of the transport.

Well whether biker meks gets cut out or not is irrelevant. You get same model with same effort anyway

So in summary - Trukks are too expensive and other things do their role better/cheaper. We are actively discouraged from taking Boyz in them because of the buffs Boys get in larger numbers.

Personally I'd like to see three things from the codex

1. Ramshackle changed to degrading invuln save or fnp ala meka dread.
2. Boarding planks to allow disembarking after movement to incentivise us taking melee units in them.
3. Let them do more in cqc or significantly drop their price.

When you do the math, Ramshackle is a slightly worse version of FNP, except it is (obviously) better against high damage weapons.

Against weapons with two damage like overcharged plasma, ramshackle saves one in twelve damage
Against three damage weapons like rokkits, you save one in nine damage
Against weapons with six damage, you save slightly less than one in six.
If you really wanted to improve the durability, you could just bump it to 5+ and make it more powerful than 6+ FNP against anything but 1 damage weapons.

But pretty much everyone agreed that we don't want or need more durable trukks, we need cheaper trukks. All of their rules but points, transport capacity and speed (your planks would be add to speed) are largely irrelevant.

 Jidmah wrote:
And I tell you again, that the argument is completely irrelevant if you actually do bring other things for anti-tank weaponry to shoot like KMK, battlewagons, gargantuan squiggoths and dakkajets - all currently showing up in top placing ork lists.

Mek Gunz are T5; not exactly the best targets for Anti-armor weapons. The rest I will give you, but again. Battlewagons currently suck, I've never used a Gargantuan Squig so I won't comment and Dakkajets only make their points back when the enemy doesn't shoot at them the entire game.

So the list would have to be completely made of Trukkz and Wagonz in order to saturate the field with high T/wound models. I have yet to see a mechanized ork list do well, ive seen a weird garg squig list do well but only twice but I haven't followed it that much.

My original point still stands, trukkz suck at what they do and need help somehow. If you want to target saturate (A very good and legitimate tactic) then we need to improve the other things you mentioned because right now most aren't worth taking or they don't fit into the same category as trukkz. Personally I am still trying to figure out how a Mek gun dropped so much durability and stayed the same in price....

tneva82 wrote:
Well whether biker meks gets cut out or not is irrelevant. You get same model with same effort anyway

Yeah but with index points cost. Which means way overcosted.

I bet 60-70% of the orks units and wargear are going to be way cheaper than now. But of course if something remains only on the index is probably going to be completely ignored in competitive games because it would be too expensive compared to the rest of the army. Like trueborn for drukhari.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:


But pretty much everyone agreed that we don't want or need more durable trukks, we need cheaper trukks. All of their rules but points, transport capacity and speed (your planks would be add to speed) are largely irrelevant.

Exactly, trukks have never been so tough. But they have only one purpose, being a pure transport. They have basically no shooting and very little melee ability while other transports can be also good in something else than carrying units, usually they provide some firepower. As long as they are pure transports they need to be cheaper and/or carry units that are way stronger and more efficient than the current ones.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
And I tell you again, that the argument is completely irrelevant if you actually do bring other things for anti-tank weaponry to shoot like KMK, battlewagons, gargantuan squiggoths and dakkajets - all currently showing up in top placing ork lists.

Mek Gunz are T5; not exactly the best targets for Anti-armor weapons. The rest I will give you, but again. Battlewagons currently suck, I've never used a Gargantuan Squig so I won't comment and Dakkajets only make their points back when the enemy doesn't shoot at them the entire game.

So the list would have to be completely made of Trukkz and Wagonz in order to saturate the field with high T/wound models. I have yet to see a mechanized ork list do well, ive seen a weird garg squig list do well but only twice but I haven't followed it that much.

My original point still stands, trukkz suck at what they do and need help somehow. If you want to target saturate (A very good and legitimate tactic) then we need to improve the other things you mentioned because right now most aren't worth taking or they don't fit into the same category as trukkz. Personally I am still trying to figure out how a Mek gun dropped so much durability and stayed the same in price....

All of those models have appeared in multiple top 3 placing ork lists this year, including the battlewagon. So your opinion simply doesn't match the data.

Edited by Manchu

Rule Number One is Be Polite. Please stick to arguing against other people's points rather than impugning their character. Thanks!

You guyz are forgtting that orks are way stronger in tourneys because of time limits.

 Jidmah wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
And I tell you again, that the argument is completely irrelevant if you actually do bring other things for anti-tank weaponry to shoot like KMK, battlewagons, gargantuan squiggoths and dakkajets - all currently showing up in top placing ork lists.

Mek Gunz are T5; not exactly the best targets for Anti-armor weapons. The rest I will give you, but again. Battlewagons currently suck, I've never used a Gargantuan Squig so I won't comment and Dakkajets only make their points back when the enemy doesn't shoot at them the entire game.

So the list would have to be completely made of Trukkz and Wagonz in order to saturate the field with high T/wound models. I have yet to see a mechanized ork list do well, ive seen a weird garg squig list do well but only twice but I haven't followed it that much.

My original point still stands, trukkz suck at what they do and need help somehow. If you want to target saturate (A very good and legitimate tactic) then we need to improve the other things you mentioned because right now most aren't worth taking or they don't fit into the same category as trukkz. Personally I am still trying to figure out how a Mek gun dropped so much durability and stayed the same in price....

All of those models have appeared in multiple top 3 placing ork lists this year, including the battlewagon. So your opinion simply doesn't match the data.

I am not saying otherwise, but out of curiosity, when was the last time they did well? I am wondering if maybe they did well against index and now against codex not so much. Likewise I wonder if they just went so counter meta that people didn't know how to play against them.

I just don't see trukkz being feasible for anything beyond tankbustas right now and even they aren't that good due to price. But this is again my opinion.

SemperMortis wrote:
I am not saying otherwise, but out of curiosity, when was the last time they did well? I am wondering if maybe they did well against index and now against codex not so much. Likewise I wonder if they just went so counter meta that people didn't know how to play against them.

We have a 1st place from an ITC tournament from this friday. Same guy place second last month with a similar list fielding two wagons but more weird boyz (pre rule of 3) at a different tournament.

I just don't see trukkz being feasible for anything beyond tankbustas right now and even they aren't that good due to price. But this is again my opinion.

I think everyone agrees on that. We are just arguing why this is the case for sport

 Jidmah wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
I am not saying otherwise, but out of curiosity, when was the last time they did well? I am wondering if maybe they did well against index and now against codex not so much. Likewise I wonder if they just went so counter meta that people didn't know how to play against them.

We have a 1st place from an ITC tournament from this friday. Same guy place second last month with a similar list fielding two wagons but more weird boyz (pre rule of 3) at a different tournament.

I just don't see trukkz being feasible for anything beyond tankbustas right now and even they aren't that good due to price. But this is again my opinion.

I think everyone agrees on that. We are just arguing why this is the case for sport

Really? can I get links if you don't mind?

https://diceshot.com/2018/05/18/orks-r-kiltons-list-2/
https://diceshot.com/2018/04/23/orks-r-kiltons-list/

You can find the corresponding events via the ITC event list:
https://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/frontline-gamings-independent-tournament-circuit/

First game :



Second game he played Tyranids - no list available.

Third game T'au :






And the updated list. Looks like he stuck 10 man squads in the wagons and mobbed them up with jumped boyz with the pile of CP.

Can't mob up the jumped boyz.

 Jidmah wrote:
https://diceshot.com/2018/05/18/orks-r-kiltons-list-2/
https://diceshot.com/2018/04/23/orks-r-kiltons-list/

You can find the corresponding events via the ITC event list:
https://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/frontline-gamings-independent-tournament-circuit/

.....OK, I thought these were major events....these two events had 13 players each. ....this is not evidence of anything beyond a list winning a local tournament at most. I am talking about major events, this is nothing, that is like me winning my local tournament which has the same turnout and posting a ridiculous list that happened to win that one time.