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Captain Tycho cannot be Primarized, unless the retcon Armageddon 3. He died. I don't think you can Primarize a dead marine.

I wish, background wise, Primaris weren't so much bigger than normal marines.

Tygre wrote:
Captain Tycho cannot be Primarized, unless the retcon Armageddon 3. He died. I don't think you can Primarize a dead marine.

I wish, background wise, Primaris weren't so much bigger than normal marines.

Not only are they bigger they have deep bassy voices. I guess regular Marines didn't sound manly enough and they had to drop the bass?

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Knock 100 pts off the base price of the repulsor, and its fine.

Yeah I'd say it's priced like someone has might of heroes on it. T9 is super good.

I think I'd just be happy with the kill team points, intercessors at 15 and classic marines at 12 I believe. I'm half excited to see if they put point drops in the space Wolves codex for vanilla esque units. If Grey hunters are 13 or less then it's probably safe to say marines will drop to 12

15 point intercessors would be pretty solid, but would essentially delete normal marines from the game. For +3 points you gain a better gun, +1 wound and +1 attack. I'd take that every single day. Then gimme my 17 point deathwatch intercessors with SIA and we have an actually respectable unit of the field. That, to me, would feel like a marine should on the board. Also heavy bolt pistols for Primaris pls.

Well in my "Primaris only" list this opens up about 80 more point which would just be another intercessors squad. The real culprits are the redemptor dread and repulsor.

Why take a redemptor when I can take a Armiger or Hellverin for a straight up better unit.

 grouchoben wrote:
Death Hex is a legit counter to invulns. Ahriman casts it on a 7, or 5 with a strat, at 18" range, on a 12" disc.

Null Zone, on the other hand ... Needs an 8 to cast, is very hard to make easier, and requires a suicide run from your invulnless librarian to get within 6", which must happen before you even know whether you're going to get that 8.

The two are night and day.

True, but Null Zone affects all models within range, which can be a total game changer against some setups. I'm thinking multiple Daemon Princes, Riptides, etc.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Draigo is only unpopular in specific circle jerks.

Yeah - mostly Grey Knight Players.

Tygre wrote:Captain Tycho cannot be Primarized, unless the retcon Armageddon 3. He died. I don't think you can Primarize a dead marine.

I wish, background wise, Primaris weren't so much bigger than normal marines.

+1 for that. They practically excluded people's pre-existing armies from being included in the lore anymore, just by stating Primaris Marines are bigger. No chapter, realistically, is going to continue using inferior gene-seed moving forward, you'd adopt Primaris for it's increased reaction times, organs and purity. So, as standard marines can't fit Mk X armour and Primaris can't fit pre-Mk X armours, any non-Primaris models on the tabletop aren't just pre-truescale models- they're outright different marines right down to the lore. So, unless standard marines can indeed be upgraded to Primaris, then anyone who's created a Chapter, any well established characters people have grown to love, indeed anybody's personal characters - they're all out of place or dead in any fluff moving forward, locked to 999.M41 (Because you can guarantee that GW will slowly phase out 'Secundus' marines). It would have made more sense if they'd simply released true scale marines, with new armour and a few new organs, but admitted it was just a refresh of the line. Seriously - who needs 10ft Marines? 7ft was impressive enough for anybody other than a 6 year old.

Tygre wrote:

I wish, background wise, Primaris weren't so much bigger than normal marines.

Background wise they aren't. In the anniversary poster the size difference is barely noticeable.

 Warpig1815 wrote:
Do we know whether standard marines can be upgraded to Primaris yet? I thought it was a yes, but I'm not so sure. If yes, then simply reissuing Characters in Primaris form could be good.

Dark Imperium mentions that existing marines can be given 'some' of the Primaris treatment and that Calgar of the Ultramarines has already had this done.

From a modeling standpoint, the one oldmarine we've seen re-issued (watch captain artemis) is wearing MK VIII armor and is nearly the size of a Primaris, but about a head shorter. I think it's a good scale since it shows the difference while do as much as possible to get away from the original mini-marines.

Crimson wrote:

Tygre wrote:

I wish, background wise, Primaris weren't so much bigger than normal marines.

Background wise they aren't. In the anniversary poster the size difference is barely noticeable.

Ummm, yeah they are unfortunately...

Lexicanum wrote:'The Sangprimus Portum is an Imperium artefact, that contains the genetic material of all twenty of the Emperor's Primarchs. In the aftermath of the Horus Heresy, the Primarch Guilliman gave the Sangprimus Portum to Archmagos Dominus Cawl, after charging the Archmagos with creating the next generation of Space Marines. Cawl succeeded and the unleashed Primaris Space Marines are taller and stronger than their Space Marine brethren, due to the fact that the genetic material within the Sangprimus Portum was even more potent than the Gene-Seed descended from the Primarchs.'

The Citation points to: 'Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition Rulebook, pg. 59 - Armies of the Imperium: Gene-Seed'

Lexicanum wrote:Magnificat
Known as the Amplifier, this small thumbnail-sized lobe is inserted into the brain's core. The implant secretes hormones that increases the body's growth functions while also intensifying its advanced systems, especially for the ossmodula and biscopea. In truth, this implant is but half of the true, dual-valve immmortis gland (the "God-Maker") which the Emperor made for the Primarchs. Belisarius Cawl was able to build the dextrophic lobe (right half) but discovered that information on the sintarius (left half) had been wholly eradicated by an unknown force.

The citation here points to: 'Codex: Space Marines (8th Edition) pg.11'

Lexicanum wrote:The Primaris Marines differ from their standard cousins thanks to three additional Implants not found in the latter: Sinew Coils, the Magnificat, and the Belisarian Furnace. The implants, plus the benefits of more potent geneseed thanks to the Sangprimus Portum[5], allow the Primaris Marines to be larger and physically stronger than previous generations of Astartes.

The citation here points to: 'Dark Imperium (Novel) by Guy Haley'

Which is why my Primaris army is pure Primaris. I think it looks incredibly jarring having them beside my Salamanders.

I want to move to Primaris, but it means I can't use any relic armours, terminators etc. I like the look of standard Mk X. and the Mk X. Phobos, but the Gravis and Intercessors armours are awful (IMHO). If they'd simply avoided making Primaris bigger in the fluff, then they could have true-scaled all the relic armours in time. No hope for that now

I hope they go in weird ways. Like a Land speeder, that has a Whirlwind indirect fire launchers on it, or a Grav demolisher that has twinlinked inferno cannon’s out the front. Stuff like that.

Banville wrote:
Which is why my Primaris army is pure Primaris. I think it looks incredibly jarring having them beside my Salamanders.

I saw pictures of them next to some Sisters of Battle rhinos (Minotaurs and Sisters versus I think it was Chaos) and the size is a bit jarring. I can see why they don't ride in Rhinos, they're too bleeding huge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Warpig1815 wrote:
I want to move to Primaris, but it means I can't use any relic armours, terminators etc. I like the look of standard Mk X. and the Mk X. Phobos, but the Gravis and Intercessors armours are awful (IMHO). If they'd simply avoided making Primaris bigger in the fluff, then they could have true-scaled all the relic armours in time. No hope for that now

If you play Vanilla, Armour Indomitus is one of the few relics you can take.

Ahh sorry - I don't play. What I meant was, if I was to go Primaris only (or a 'Current' (M42) theme), then I couldn't use an Heresy Era Armour Marks, or Terminators, because even model scale aside, no Primaris can use them lore wise. Which sucks for a collector/painter like me. Ehhh, I could bitch all day, but what's the point It is what it is.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
Death Hex is a legit counter to invulns. Ahriman casts it on a 7, or 5 with a strat, at 18" range, on a 12" disc.

Null Zone, on the other hand ... Needs an 8 to cast, is very hard to make easier, and requires a suicide run from your invulnless librarian to get within 6", which must happen before you even know whether you're going to get that 8.

The two are night and day.

True, but Null Zone affects all models within range, which can be a total game changer against some setups. I'm thinking multiple Daemon Princes, Riptides, etc.

That means your opponent squished lots of invuln units into a kill zone within 12" of a librarian, you got nullzone off on a 41% chance of casting the thing, and they had no deny. It's possible, and it's happened to me once in a game. But it can't compare to death hex, especially on a Thousand Son caster.

Otherwise, you deepstrike a librarian in with a jumppack and charge on an absolute suicide mission: 9" charge (with a reroll) followed by a successful cast. That's around 19% likelihood of success. It's not in any way a reliable tactic, and smacks of desperation.

Compare that with Ahriman casting Death hex with cabal strat up (very easy to do). He picks the target. He casts on a 5+ with a reroll, succeeding on 94%.

So that's 19% vs 94% with a 30" range. You really can't compare the two.

 Warpig1815 wrote:
Ahh sorry - I don't play. What I meant was, if I was to go Primaris only (or a 'Current' (M42) theme), then I couldn't use an Heresy Era Armour Marks, or Terminators, because even model scale aside, no Primaris can use them lore wise. Which sucks for a collector/painter like me. Ehhh, I could bitch all day, but what's the point It is what it is.

Use the kits to make statues for your terrain?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grouchoben wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
Death Hex is a legit counter to invulns. Ahriman casts it on a 7, or 5 with a strat, at 18" range, on a 12" disc.

Null Zone, on the other hand ... Needs an 8 to cast, is very hard to make easier, and requires a suicide run from your invulnless librarian to get within 6", which must happen before you even know whether you're going to get that 8.

The two are night and day.

True, but Null Zone affects all models within range, which can be a total game changer against some setups. I'm thinking multiple Daemon Princes, Riptides, etc.

That means your opponent squished lots of invuln units into a kill zone within 12" of a librarian, you got nullzone off on a 41% chance of casting the thing, and they had no deny. It's possible, and it's happened to me once in a game. But it can't compare to death hex, especially on a Thousand Son caster.

Otherwise, you deepstrike a librarian in with a jumppack and charge on an absolute suicide mission: 9" charge (with a reroll) followed by a successful cast. That's around 19% likelihood of success. It's not in any way a reliable tactic, and smacks of desperation.

Compare that with Ahriman casting Death hex with cabal strat up (very easy to do). He picks the target. He casts on a 5+ with a reroll, succeeding on 94%.

So that's 19% vs 94% with a 30" range. You really can't compare the two.

Daemons and Harlequins can easily have multiple targets inside of a small bubble due to auras between HQs and units requiring small spacing.

And yes, nothing is going to be better than the TS casting Death Hex. Not even regular CSM with Death Hex compares. But that's like comparing artisinal garlic butter to something you bought from the corner store that comes in a tub. They may do the same basic job, but one is clearly superior. But at the same time no one wants to hear you brag about how much better it is because we all know it already.

EDIT: Also, how are TS really that relevant to a discussion about Primaris exactly? Seriously, bringing up the army of the best psykers in the game to highlight how average we are seems a bit silly.

No terrain

To be fair, I'm not too bothered. I reckon GW, being money orientated, will realise that in cutting out some of their most iconic armours/vehicles they also cut out a good chunk of revenue and interest. And so, with that in mind, I'm fairly confident that somewhere along the line there'll be a re-visiting of those marks with a Primaris twist of some sort. As in the real world, it's not impossible to reforge armour to fit a larger frame - it's just time consuming and expensive. But the Imperium has all the resources to make it happen somehow

 Warpig1815 wrote:
No terrain

To be fair, I'm not too bothered. I reckon GW, being money orientated, will realise that in cutting out some of their most iconic armours/vehicles they also cut out a good chunk of revenue and interest. And so, with that in mind, I'm fairly confident that somewhere along the line there'll be a re-visiting of those marks with a Primaris twist of some sort. As in the real world, it's not impossible to reforge armour to fit a larger frame - it's just time consuming and expensive. But the Imperium has all the resources to make it happen somehow

Considering the size differences, I don't see that really being a thing. Why bring back old armour when the new stuff is not only better lore wise, but design wise shares design notes with what came before it? If anything the plastic kits might be phased out to being HH only and cement the two as drastically separate games.

 Warpig1815 wrote:

Crimson wrote:

Tygre wrote:

I wish, background wise, Primaris weren't so much bigger than normal marines.

Background wise they aren't. In the anniversary poster the size difference is barely noticeable.

Ummm, yeah they are unfortunately...

I didn't say the aren't bigger at all, they are, merely that the size difference is 'really' not so big as the models would imply (due the old marine models being undersized.)

Aye, that's probably not a bad call. The only reason I can think for them to update the older marks, aside from aforementioned popularity amongst the community, is that, for an in-universe point of view, the older marks still hold great importance, being a reminder of past glory. It's alright having a new Mk X helmet with Mk IV autosenses - but can that really compare to having Captain Gravius' original Mk IV helm, in which he fought alongside the Emperor himself to unite humanity? It's the significance.

It's a bit like, why is it I want a 1969 Ford Mustang - the new Mustang is more comfortable, more reliable, more powerful and shares much of it's aesthetics ('Design notes') with the original. But I want the 1969, just because of the significance of it being from an era when car design was developing into all sorts of imaginative and revolutionary ways. 'Old but Gold' is what I'm trying to say I guess - and for Astartes, the same rings true.

@Crimson - Apologies, I possibly just misinterpreted it

 Crimson wrote:

 Warpig1815 wrote:

Crimson wrote:

Tygre wrote:

I wish, background wise, Primaris weren't so much bigger than normal marines.

Background wise they aren't. In the anniversary poster the size difference is barely noticeable.

Ummm, yeah they are unfortunately...

I didn't say the aren't bigger at all, they are, merely that the size difference is 'really' not so big as the models would imply (due the old marine models being undersized.)

Current Astartes are upsized (and stand up straighter) than the ones that came before and they're still heretically small compared to Primaris. A whole head of height is a lot of difference in real life in terms of sizing equipment, and would require a lot of adjustments to be made to the old stuff to fit the new guys. So basically I don't see it carrying over like mentioned.

On a different note, I guess ol' Silas Albrec of the Exorcists chapter lost his defining trait of being the biggest Marine in the room (being described as "Ogryn sized").

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Current Astartes are upsized (and stand up straighter) than the ones that came before and they're still heretically small compared to Primaris.

They're also heretically small compared to GW's normal humans too! (And have weird proportions.) The old marine models are just bad, you can't use them as an accurate comparison; they don't look like that in the art.

A whole head of height is a lot of difference in real life in terms of sizing equipment, and would require a lot of adjustments to be made to the old stuff to fit the new guys. So basically I don't see it carrying over like mentioned.

If GW wants to at some point make some Primaris in old school armour, they will do it. The size difference is intentionally left vague in the fluff and can be hand waved away if needed.

On a different note, I guess ol' Silas Albrec of the Exorcists chapter lost his defining trait of being the biggest Marine in the room (being described as "Ogryn sized").

Well, the Primaris are definitely not Ogryn sized.

 Warpig1815 wrote:
Aye, that's probably not a bad call. The only reason I can think for them to update the older marks, aside from aforementioned popularity amongst the community, is that, for an in-universe point of view, the older marks still hold great importance, being a reminder of past glory. It's alright having a new Mk X helmet with Mk IV autosenses - but can that really compare to having Captain Gravius' original Mk IV helm, in which he fought alongside the Emperor himself to unite humanity? It's the significance.

It's a bit like, why is it I want a 1969 Ford Mustang - the new Mustang is more comfortable, more reliable, more powerful and shares much of it's aesthetics ('Design notes') with the original. But I want the 1969, just because of the significance of it being from an era when car design was developing into all sorts of imaginative and revolutionary ways. 'Old but Gold' is what I'm trying to say I guess - and for Astartes, the same rings true.

@Crimson - Apologies, I possibly just misinterpreted it

If they can't fit it doesn't mean they don't keep it. The Ultramarines have a whole "Hall of Arming" full of stuff that has historical significance to the chapter. Just because they don't use the stuff doesn't mean it won't exist in the background anymore.

And considering most of the current Primaris come from a time when there was less superstitious attatchment to equipment, I don't know if they'd view it as much as the old astartes would. I know you want to justify it, but you can't just stretch the armour like a t-shirt, but rather you'd have to rework the entire thing from scratch to make it fit, and if you did that it's basically new armour with nothing more than the name of whatever it used to be before you gutted it to refit it.

@ClockworkZion - Oh I'm not trying to justify it - I'm just throwing ideas out like anyone else in the spirit of 'wishlisting'. I'm not dressing up the fact that I like the old armours and I'd like for GW to give me a plausible reason to use both old and new together for future models. As for 'stretching armour like a t-shirt' - I'm not quite that naive. I'm well aware of how complex reforging armour is - again, I'm just putting ideas out there. It was called 'rampant speculation/wishlisting' for a reason...

Back to wishlisting. Scout quad bikes. Since they have a super soldier rather than a warrior monk vibe, I think stuff like mortar teams etc might be good. An attack helicopter along stormtalon lines. Inceptors with power weapons. A cheap APC without it looking like it was dipped in glue and rolled in someone's bits box.

 Warpig1815 wrote:
@ClockworkZion - Oh I'm not trying to justify it - I'm just throwing ideas out like anyone else in the spirit of 'wishlisting'. I'm not dressing up the fact that I like the old armours and I'd like for GW to give me a plausible reason to use both old and new together for future models. As for 'stretching armour like a t-shirt' - I'm not quite that naive. I'm well aware of how complex reforging armour is - again, I'm just putting ideas out there. It was called 'rampant speculation/wishlisting' for a reason...

I'd say leave the old marks for groups like the Iron Warriors who aren't likely to be covered in mutations and let the Primaris be their own thing. The Primaris armour already pulls inspiration from several past armours (the legs have thicker front plates like MkIII, the gorget and ab plating is MkVIII, helmet is MkIV, they likely have the same silent running of MVI armour considering the stripped down armour the Reivers does has it, and some can have MkV extra armour on their shoulder pads, and I'm sure you can find other bits here and there. Yes, it's not the same but it takes all the best parts of past marks and puts it into one package).

And while not Primaris related specifically...I want the next loyalist primarch already. Chaos has two already and I don't want to have to run Dorn's model using Guilliman's rules just to have a Primarch in my collection.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Banville wrote:
Back to wishlisting. Scout quad bikes. Since they have a super soldier rather than a warrior monk vibe, I think stuff like mortar teams etc might be good. An attack helicopter along stormtalon lines. Inceptors with power weapons. A cheap APC without it looking like it was dipped in glue and rolled in someone's bits box.

I disagree about your assessment about the Repulsor looking like it was rolled in a bits box, but I agree we need something like a grav-'back with something like Onslaught gatling cannons instead of the Razorback's Assault Cannons.

The army needs more anti-tank though and I'm not sure the best way to fit it in. Maybe Gravis armour with las-talons?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Captain Tycho may end up gone because how do you Primarisize someone who is a frothing looney like that?

Vulkan will stick around since that's a position, not a person. Khan could go either way depending on if Marines get Primaris bikes or not. Lysander doesn't really fit the Primaris style at the moment so that'll be up in the air (unless they stick him in Gravis armour with his Thunderhammer and Stormshield). Cato will stick around because they seem to like him, which Calgar might vanish in the end.

Basically it can swing all over the place depending how they decide to advance the story and how they choose to do it.

Well I can tell you for a fact Tycho is not getting Primarized on account of him being literally dead.

I for sure see Cato being a great candidate to be Primarized alongside other old as dirt models like Ragnar.

This is straying into fluff territory but I think it'd be good for the setting to have the High Lords push back against Roboute's growing power. Maybe have the Imperial Fists and their successors as well as the Minotaurs row in on the 'Terran' side. Ultima Founding Chapters are split, with the Ultra ones siding with their Primarch. The traditional chapters, Sallies, Wolves etc start looking at their new Primaris recruits with renewed suspicion as marines of all stripes start questioning their own loyalties.

Basically Roboute starts sliding accidentally into Horus territory.

There'd then be less need to crowbar Primaris in alongside regular marines.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

And while not Primaris related specifically...I want the next loyalist primarch already. Chaos has two already and I don't want to have to run Dorn's model using Guilliman's rules just to have a Primarch in my collection.

Just no. And please get rid of the one loyalist Primarch we already have. Primaris fluff is stupid, but I can live with it, the loyalist Primarchs returning just ruins the setting though. If people want the game to be about those ludicrously sized man babies beating each other they can already play HH.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Banville wrote:
This is straying into fluff territory but I think it'd be good for the setting to have the High Lords push back against Roboute's growing power. Maybe have the Imperial Fists and their successors as well as the Minotaurs row in on the 'Terran' side. Ultima Founding Chapters are split, with the Ultra ones siding with their Primarch. The traditional chapters, Sallies, Wolves etc start looking at their new Primaris recruits with renewed suspicion as marines of all stripes start questioning their own loyalties.

Basically Roboute starts sliding accidentally into Horus territory.

This would at least be way more interesting than everybody just kissing his shiny oversized arse and relinquishing all power to him.

 Crimson wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

And while not Primaris related specifically...I want the next loyalist primarch already. Chaos has two already and I don't want to have to run Dorn's model using Guilliman's rules just to have a Primarch in my collection.

Just no. And please get rid of the one loyalist Primarch we already have. Primaris fluff is stupid, but I can live with it, the loyalist Primarchs returning just ruins the setting though. If people want the game to be about those ludicrously sized man babies beating each other they can already play HH.

Considering that the lore has always made it possible for the Primarchs to return (well...most of them) and the traitor Primarchs hovering out just out of sight in the lore (they REALLY should have been available to be in the game sooner honestly, them spending 10k years playing with legos or what have you has been a bit silly) I fully disagree.

Also, I'm wondering where Guilliman got the Primarch implant from. Perhaps from the Emperor's old labs, but equally possible it came from Alpharius' corpse (since Dorn super murdered him). And your stupid is my awesome. So I guess.

 Crimson wrote:

Banville wrote:
This is straying into fluff territory but I think it'd be good for the setting to have the High Lords push back against Roboute's growing power. Maybe have the Imperial Fists and their successors as well as the Minotaurs row in on the 'Terran' side. Ultima Founding Chapters are split, with the Ultra ones siding with their Primarch. The traditional chapters, Sallies, Wolves etc start looking at their new Primaris recruits with renewed suspicion as marines of all stripes start questioning their own loyalties.

Basically Roboute starts sliding accidentally into Horus territory.

This would at least be way more interesting than everybody just kissing his shiny oversized arse and relinquishing all power to him.

The High Lords who stood against him were sacked and replaced with those who support him. Guilliman is currently THE voice of the Emperor. To defy him is to defy the Emperor himself. If you want a power struggle in the Imperium we'd need another loyalist to be bickering with him and fighting with him over how the Imperium should be run (Dorn or the Lion would be the best fit for that).