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Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:

On top, 3 bonebreakers are 477pts. Bad example I would say.


I think you guys should play in a meta that has them before you crap on them.

Snakebite Bonebreakas wind up being 4+/5++/6+++. The 3 of them are about the same cost as a regular shooty knight and you can spend all game and not kill all of them.

They will be in your army's face turn 1. Either you're shooting them or the Wazboms, but either way it's really hard to crack them before turn 3 unless you have MW spam. Yes, they require other units to operate this way, but so does everything else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote:


Right, because my Kustom made Warboss on Warbike that I made during 6th edition that I spent 12 hours on is broken and makes me WAAC for wanting to use him. And if they nerfed the units instead of disallowing them they would still be yelled at and made to look bad.


Then there shouldn't be an issue mounting him to a larger base with some scenery and doing counts-as a war trike? And they aren't allowed to nerf units if they make things too powerful? That makes no sense.

Case and point, my 12 lovingly built and painted Killa Kanz that I can't use in a game because my opponents get bored of winning with ease.


Maybe you should try run and charge with them? All their good weapons ARE assault after all.

Also, in regards to "unintended" no, it was not an unintended consequence, the unit has been included since at least 4th edition, GW knows its ability and how it functions in an Ork Army, but what they don't do is make a model for it


If they made a model for it then it wouldn't have the rules it does. You can't declare that GW had rules precognition from an index unit that was dropped a year and a half later.

Also, Bonebreakers advance D6 as far as I know, So that averages about 9' charge, 8 if you take Evil Sunz. So it has a good chance to get into CC, but not a great one. And if you don't get 1st turn OR if you are unlucky enough to not get your charge off then both your wartrike and bonebreaker are dead.


12 + 3 or 4 = 8" or 9" remaining, which means a 7 or 8 for a charge roll - lean towards 8, because nothing is that precise. You get an easy 3D6 for one with the stratagem, so with 3 BBs you have two in almost all the time plus the trike.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/02 18:13:48


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 Daedalus81 wrote:
Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:

On top, 3 bonebreakers are 477pts. Bad example I would say.


I think you guys should play in a meta that has them before you crap on them.

Snakebite Bonebreakas wind up being 4+/5++/6+++. The 3 of them are about the same cost as a regular shooty knight and you can spend all game and not kill all of them.

They will be in your army's face turn 1. Either you're shooting them or the Wazboms, but either way it's really hard to crack them before turn 3 unless you have MW spam. Yes, they require other units to operate this way, but so does everything else.

Dae you don't play Orks often enough/in a competitive setting regularly to really comment on Ork tactics. Here's a few responses to just the above (and why it's a bad idea);

1. Every Ork player with the capabilities has tried to make Bonebreakers work.
2. Where is the 5++ from? The Wazzbomm? There's another ton of points.
3. Bonebreakers and the Trikeboss can't fly. So their ability to deal damage is severely limited on maps with terrain, particularly when most of their damage output is from their melee attacks.
4. They aren't difficult to kill.
5. They can't do anything to flyers.
6. Why would anyone want to lock themselves into the Snakebite clan that has by far the worst sub faction trait in a faction that can easily give said sub faction trait out to infantry anyway?
7. They really aren't difficult to kill.
E - 8. What sort of insane/bad ass person puts their units anywhere near the front of their deployment zone if they are against an Ork with 3 Bonebreakas? Any unit they can have on terrain will be on terrain. The rest will be as far back as possible.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/02 19:09:36


 
   
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Some good news on Marine index units: the new FAQ gives them Angles of Death, so now you can use them without your army losing the doctrines.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
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 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:

On top, 3 bonebreakers are 477pts. Bad example I would say.


I think you guys should play in a meta that has them before you crap on them.

Snakebite Bonebreakas wind up being 4+/5++/6+++. The 3 of them are about the same cost as a regular shooty knight and you can spend all game and not kill all of them.

They will be in your army's face turn 1. Either you're shooting them or the Wazboms, but either way it's really hard to crack them before turn 3 unless you have MW spam. Yes, they require other units to operate this way, but so does everything else.

Dae you don't play Orks often enough/in a competitive setting regularly to really comment on Ork tactics. Here's a few responses to just the above (and why it's a bad idea);

1. Every Ork player with the capabilities has tried to make Bonebreakers work.
2. Where is the 5++ from? The Wazzbomm? There's another ton of points.
3. Bonebreakers and the Trikeboss can't fly. So their ability to deal damage is severely limited on maps with terrain, particularly when most of their damage output is from their melee attacks.
4. They aren't difficult to kill.
5. They can't do anything to flyers.
6. Why would anyone want to lock themselves into the Snakebite clan that has by far the worst sub faction trait in a faction that can easily give said sub faction trait out to infantry anyway?
7. They really aren't difficult to kill.
E - 8. What sort of insane/bad ass person puts their units anywhere near the front of their deployment zone if they are against an Ork with 3 Bonebreakas? Any unit they can have on terrain will be on terrain. The rest will be as far back as possible.




Orks are probably 1/5th of my games. Wazboms are not slouches for the points. Shooting Wazboms means you're not shooting BBs - same net result.

Why Snakebites? 6+++ on vehicles and +1 to wound for the ENTIRE army against large models.

I don't know how you consider them easy to kill when they're harder to kill than a 4++ knight.

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 Daedalus81 wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:

On top, 3 bonebreakers are 477pts. Bad example I would say.


I think you guys should play in a meta that has them before you crap on them.

Snakebite Bonebreakas wind up being 4+/5++/6+++. The 3 of them are about the same cost as a regular shooty knight and you can spend all game and not kill all of them.

They will be in your army's face turn 1. Either you're shooting them or the Wazboms, but either way it's really hard to crack them before turn 3 unless you have MW spam. Yes, they require other units to operate this way, but so does everything else.

Dae you don't play Orks often enough/in a competitive setting regularly to really comment on Ork tactics. Here's a few responses to just the above (and why it's a bad idea);

1. Every Ork player with the capabilities has tried to make Bonebreakers work.
2. Where is the 5++ from? The Wazzbomm? There's another ton of points.
3. Bonebreakers and the Trikeboss can't fly. So their ability to deal damage is severely limited on maps with terrain, particularly when most of their damage output is from their melee attacks.
4. They aren't difficult to kill.
5. They can't do anything to flyers.
6. Why would anyone want to lock themselves into the Snakebite clan that has by far the worst sub faction trait in a faction that can easily give said sub faction trait out to infantry anyway?
7. They really aren't difficult to kill.
E - 8. What sort of insane/bad ass person puts their units anywhere near the front of their deployment zone if they are against an Ork with 3 Bonebreakas? Any unit they can have on terrain will be on terrain. The rest will be as far back as possible.




Orks are probably 1/5th of my games. Wazboms are not slouches for the points. Shooting Wazboms means you're not shooting BBs - same net result.

Why Snakebites? 6+++ on vehicles and +1 to wound for the ENTIRE army against large models.

I don't know how you consider them easy to kill when they're harder to kill than a 4++ knight.


With only T6 different guns can target Wazzbomms to what target the BBs.

Listen you seem really sold on this idea though so please, prove me wrong. Take it to a tournament and show us all the power of Snakebite BBs that clearly we missed. I just hope you don't run into the Eldar Flyer list, any Dark Eldar list, any other flying vehicles or bikes, infantry that can escape on terrain features or just a competent opponent that forces you to come to them.

I'm not saying BBs are the worst unit in the codex by the way, they're a few points off becoming useful to be honest, but as it stands and in the current meta taking 3 is dubious at best.
   
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Karol wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Karol wrote:
What stops GW from giving a mega armoured mekk be given both sets of rules, to use with the same plastic model they sell.
The Chapter House lawsuits.


But that is crazy, this means to have lets say a space marine character with one new weapons you have to have a whole new model. Can't just have a captin or chapter master with a list of stuff they can take. What are they losing if someone else makes a model for their game anyway, those that buy recasts don't buy GW models in the first place, unless it is to make casts of their own. If GW products are better looking and priced, then those of other companies, people that buy GW models won't be buying 3ed company stuff. Is it some obscure law thing, like the stuff with comics, where if they don't restart them every X years, they go in to free domain, and everyone can make them, no questions asked?


Their copyright. I'm an engineer, not a lawyer, but as I understand, if you let people use your copyright without permission and make no attempt to enforce it, it enters public domain and you lose control of it. So they have to sue people people who make stuff for their models without trying to dress it up to maintain their control. Then, they lost the lawsuit against Chapterhouse with respects to the miniatures that they didn't make; that is to say that if they don't make the model for it, they can't claim copyright or trademark on it if somebody else does, having written up the rules and description of what it looks like isn't a substitute for actually having made it and selling it. The only really logical conclusion is that in order to protect their copyright, they don't want to have described ideas [rules] that they don't realize in miniature form, and stripping rules for un-made models is far easier and cost effective than making models for all the units with only rules.

That said, I don't suspect that the Legends decision falls under the purview of legally motivated restrictions; since they're still publishing rules for them. They're just barring them from tournaments. It definitely feels much more balance motivated than legally [or even cost, since it would presumably be more cost effective to keep printing the index]; since it gives them greater control of the meta and means they don't have to consider or support legacy units when they write up and balance things.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/09/02 20:49:34


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 Grimtuff wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:

1. They have effectively ensured that no tournament will allow index models with their "recommendation".

Probably. Or the tournament organisers could think for themselves.


IME most modern 40k players want to be spoonfed everything. If they don't get an edict from GW on what something exactly is or how it is supposed to be used then madness occurs. You could see this yesterday on various social media platforms with people losing their gak over what they thought was a Gravis Librarian, despite it just being a rendition of the standard model and the artist simply taking a few liberties with the appearance.

GW don't do that on the regular any more. All artwork has to look exactly like the model, no deviations.

Same goes for rules. You see it still being used, but there are an infuriating amount of newbies that have acquired old models etc. that simply have no idea how malleable the game should be and ask daft questions they frankly shouldn't have to ask because they've been codified with only what GW have told them is correct (almost life imitating art with rigid adherence to the codex and Gulliman coming back and telling everyone how it was/should be ). "Can I use xyz as a DP?", "What is this weapon" etc. etc.


I see another way. The long-term success of 40K is based on a number of factors ranging from the quality of the models, the fluff/lore, accessible rules and the likelihood of getting a game. The last factor is quite important in a tabletop miniatures wargame. Why invest time and money into models that you might not find a game for. 40K has become a lingua franca or bridge that allows players to come to a store or club that do not know each other and have a good game without prior negotiating. That's why folks respect the Rule of 3 even when they are not at a tournament, and its why folks will not bring Legends models to pick-up games. That's also why you see players asking about proxies, counts-as because they do not want to make an investment with a high risk of no-return in terms of gaming.

Now, some folks might play in small, closed groups where they come up with all sorts of variations. Cruddace's stormtroopers are not going to break down the door to your basement gaming table when you are playing with close friends and not caring about things like the Rule of 3 and prohibitions against Legends/Index models. Expecting others, though, to be OK with your taking Legends models at 40K night at the FLGS in another matter.

I'm sad about my converted Librarian on a Bike, but I'll get over it. The Codicier model I mercilessly cut in half with bolt cutters to make the conversion is also sad. He'll play in narrative games in my basement but his FLGS days are pretty much done.

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 An Actual Englishman wrote:


With only T6 different guns can target Wazzbomms to what target the BBs.

Listen you seem really sold on this idea though so please, prove me wrong. Take it to a tournament and show us all the power of Snakebite BBs that clearly we missed. I just hope you don't run into the Eldar Flyer list, any Dark Eldar list, any other flying vehicles or bikes, infantry that can escape on terrain features or just a competent opponent that forces you to come to them.

I'm not saying BBs are the worst unit in the codex by the way, they're a few points off becoming useful to be honest, but as it stands and in the current meta taking 3 is dubious at best.


I wont tell you that 3 BBs are going to crack the meta. I dont own enough to take it to tournaments, but I'll try and schedule time on TTS.


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All of the Space Marine Index units got Angels of Death, so I don't think they are dead quite yet.

I imagine Legends units are ones that they don't make and don't really fit in the narrative anymore, like the old Marneus Calgar models will get tossed into Legends, or one shot models like the Imperial Space Marine.

The Librarian on bike never had a model as far as I can remember, nor did the Librarian with a jump pack. Will they get the Legends treatment? Maybe?

But the Sisters of Silence are still being made, and I doubt they are going to put a plastic kit in Legends, so lets not jump and assume all Index units are going to get flushed.

 warboss wrote:
Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
 
   
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Damn.
Wolf Guard Bikers are going to Legends...it’s not like they’re a difficult model to build - literally a Space Wolves upgrade sprue and a Space Marine Bikers box.

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 Daedalus81 wrote:


I think you guys should play in a meta that has them before you crap on them.

Snakebite Bonebreakas wind up being 4+/5++/6+++. The 3 of them are about the same cost as a regular shooty knight and you can spend all game and not kill all of them.

They will be in your army's face turn 1. Either you're shooting them or the Wazboms, but either way it's really hard to crack them before turn 3 unless you have MW spam. Yes, they require other units to operate this way, but so does everything else.


A shooty Knight will focus fire the Wazbom to death with its avenger and rapid fire battlecannon turn 1 because it will be a lot further away then you seem to think, unless your opponent is terrible he won't deploy his knight on the deployment line. So now you are down to a 4+ and a 6+++. Of course all of that is against a Knight Crusader which costs 478pts, since you gave them a wazbom, a closer comparison would be a Castellan, and a castellan is killing a BB each and every turn and still has enough dakka to kill a wazbom with its secondary weapons





Then there shouldn't be an issue mounting him to a larger base with some scenery and doing counts-as a war trike? And they aren't allowed to nerf units if they make things too powerful? That makes no sense.
Sure, I have plenty of time to rip apart models that I have kustom made for hte purposes of further converting them to a unit that I absolutely hate and would never field.

Maybe you should try run and charge with them? All their good weapons ARE assault after all.
Sure, let me take a unit that sucks, and run it as fast as possible (which is slow as hell) at the enemy and hope they make it into CC where they......hit on 5s. 6' move and if they run they become BS5. Ohh, and they also don't have Ere we go and can't charge after advancing.

If they made a model for it then it wouldn't have the rules it does. You can't declare that GW had rules precognition from an index unit that was dropped a year and a half later.
Not trying to be rude but this has to be the most disingenuous comment of the day. I can't "Declare GW had rules precognition from an index" Really? No seriously, really? So I can't say GW was aware of the index....that they printed, about units they invented and wrote rules for for decades? I mean, is this the argument you want to use? The rules team apparently forgot that every single army in the entire game had an index option (Barring new units/factions) when 8th dropped and now that they are getting around to writing the codex they somehow cant remember what was in the book. Sorry this argument holds as much water as a sieve.

12 + 3 or 4 = 8" or 9" remaining, which means a 7 or 8 for a charge roll - lean towards 8, because nothing is that precise. You get an easy 3D6 for one with the stratagem, so with 3 BBs you have two in almost all the time plus the trike.


Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.

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Yeah Daed you still have yet to show which Index units are WAAC

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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SemperMortis wrote:


A shooty Knight will focus fire the Wazbom to death with its avenger and rapid fire battlecannon turn 1 because it will be a lot further away then you seem to think, unless your opponent is terrible he won't deploy his knight on the deployment line. So now you are down to a 4+ and a 6+++. Of course all of that is against a Knight Crusader which costs 478pts, since you gave them a wazbom, a closer comparison would be a Castellan, and a castellan is killing a BB each and every turn and still has enough dakka to kill a wazbom with its secondary weapons


And you spent all that time on the Wazbom. I'd probably bring two or a Mek and use the Projekta, because I'd need just a turn or two of protection. And, again, for the record - a RFBC/Gat Knight can't easily kill a Wazbom in one go.

Sure, I have plenty of time to rip apart models that I have kustom made for hte purposes of further converting them to a unit that I absolutely hate and would never field.


This is confusing. You love the model and wish to field it, but you don't like the rules of the wartrike. So what is your motive, really? Model or rules?

can't charge after advancing.


Sure they can. Wartrike lets them. Banner gets them hitting on 4s (tellyporta him). It does suck that they don't get Kultur.

Not trying to be rude but this has to be the most disingenuous comment of the day. I can't "Declare GW had rules precognition from an index" Really? No seriously, really? So I can't say GW was aware of the index....that they printed, about units they invented and wrote rules for for decades? I mean, is this the argument you want to use? The rules team apparently forgot that every single army in the entire game had an index option (Barring new units/factions) when 8th dropped and now that they are getting around to writing the codex they somehow cant remember what was in the book. Sorry this argument holds as much water as a sieve.


Let's ponder this for a moment. Ork Index happened June 2016. Ork Codex was Nov 2018. That's over 2 years.

So then what should GW do? Worry about every possible interaction for index units? They could have changed the rules for the Warboss so that you wouldn't use it, which is the same god-damn net result, but they didn't because it's a waste of time.

Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah Daed you still have yet to show which Index units are WAAC


The ones we see on top tables. Perhaps WAAC is the wrong term, but it is the term that fits my mind set.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/03 03:06:18


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The handful of possible index options being an issue doesn't mean we should purge the other 99 percent of older models and their rules and make them de facto out of the game.

Two things are always going to be true, GW has no real interest in making a truly balanced (especially with letting the models team lead and then telling the rules team to figure it out) game and someone who wants to break the game or find some unintended combo will always do so outside of some kind of mirror match.
   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:


A shooty Knight will focus fire the Wazbom to death with its avenger and rapid fire battlecannon turn 1 because it will be a lot further away then you seem to think, unless your opponent is terrible he won't deploy his knight on the deployment line. So now you are down to a 4+ and a 6+++. Of course all of that is against a Knight Crusader which costs 478pts, since you gave them a wazbom, a closer comparison would be a Castellan, and a castellan is killing a BB each and every turn and still has enough dakka to kill a wazbom with its secondary weapons


And you spent all that time on the Wazbom. I'd probably bring two or a Mek and use the Projekta, because I'd need just a turn or two of protection. And, again, for the record - a RFBC/Gat Knight can't easily kill a Wazbom in one go.

Sure, I have plenty of time to rip apart models that I have kustom made for hte purposes of further converting them to a unit that I absolutely hate and would never field.


This is confusing. You love the model and wish to field it, but you don't like the rules of the wartrike. So what is your motive, really? Model or rules?

can't charge after advancing.


Sure they can. Wartrike lets them. Banner gets them hitting on 4s (tellyporta him). It does suck that they don't get Kultur.

Not trying to be rude but this has to be the most disingenuous comment of the day. I can't "Declare GW had rules precognition from an index" Really? No seriously, really? So I can't say GW was aware of the index....that they printed, about units they invented and wrote rules for for decades? I mean, is this the argument you want to use? The rules team apparently forgot that every single army in the entire game had an index option (Barring new units/factions) when 8th dropped and now that they are getting around to writing the codex they somehow cant remember what was in the book. Sorry this argument holds as much water as a sieve.


Let's ponder this for a moment. Ork Index happened June 2016. Ork Codex was Nov 2018. That's over 2 years.

So then what should GW do? Worry about every possible interaction for index units? They could have changed the rules for the Warboss so that you wouldn't use it, which is the same god-damn net result, but they didn't because it's a waste of time.

Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah Daed you still have yet to show which Index units are WAAC


The ones we see on top tables. Perhaps WAAC is the wrong term, but it is the term that fits my mind set.

Which models would those be? Please continue!

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:


And you spent all that time on the Wazbom. I'd probably bring two or a Mek and use the Projekta, because I'd need just a turn or two of protection. And, again, for the record - a RFBC/Gat Knight can't easily kill a Wazbom in one go.

A RFBC/Gat knight can kill a Wazbom in 1 turn, give him the anti-air gun and if it really matters, give him a strat.



This is confusing. You love the model and wish to field it, but you don't like the rules of the wartrike. So what is your motive, really? Model or rules?

Ready for this.....Both, and the fact that I started playing this game as a Speed Freak evil sun and the idea of not having a warboss on warbike is offensive So add in fluff as well.


Sure they can. Wartrike lets them. Banner gets them hitting on 4s (tellyporta him). It does suck that they don't get Kultur.

So take a really crappy unit (kanz) Add in a slow infantry model (who doesn't benefit from the Wartrike) and add in a wartrike. So you are left with zero ranged weapons that matter, no CC weapons that are that scary and most of your army will die before turn 2 is over. When you find a way to make Killa Kanz competitive you let everyone else in the ork community know, because a lot of us have been trying for years. And your suggestion above, yeah, that doesn't make them competitive, hell it doesn't even make them survive past turn 2.


Let's ponder this for a moment. Ork Index happened June 2016. Ork Codex was Nov 2018. That's over 2 years.

So then what should GW do? Worry about every possible interaction for index units? They could have changed the rules for the Warboss so that you wouldn't use it, which is the same god-damn net result, but they didn't because it's a waste of time.
Very good point actually. It isn't fair to think GW can remember an index they wrote a year prior (BTW 8th came out in 2017 not 2016) I mean, look how they completely forgot everything in prior editions where Orkz went the better part of a decade without a new codex. Your argument yet again holds no water.


Yea...that's called board control.
So you can use board control during the deployment phase to force your opponent to deploy on the very edge of the deployment zone with his valuable units and he wont put up a screening unit? Wow you are good. Or you could be talking nonsense.


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So then what should GW do? Worry about every possible interaction for index units? They could have changed the rules for the Warboss so that you wouldn't use it, which is the same god-damn net result, but they didn't because it's a waste of time.


But GW doesn't care about rules balance at all. They want people to buy more models, and not use old or 3ed party models, or stuff they build on their own, and that is all.
   
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Karol wrote:
So then what should GW do? Worry about every possible interaction for index units? They could have changed the rules for the Warboss so that you wouldn't use it, which is the same god-damn net result, but they didn't because it's a waste of time.


But GW doesn't care about rules balance at all. They want people to buy more models, and not use old or 3ed party models, or stuff they build on their own, and that is all.


False. True. True. False.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:


And you spent all that time on the Wazbom. I'd probably bring two or a Mek and use the Projekta, because I'd need just a turn or two of protection. And, again, for the record - a RFBC/Gat Knight can't easily kill a Wazbom in one go.

A RFBC/Gat knight can kill a Wazbom in 1 turn, give him the anti-air gun and if it really matters, give him a strat.



This is confusing. You love the model and wish to field it, but you don't like the rules of the wartrike. So what is your motive, really? Model or rules?

Ready for this.....Both, and the fact that I started playing this game as a Speed Freak evil sun and the idea of not having a warboss on warbike is offensive So add in fluff as well.


Sure they can. Wartrike lets them. Banner gets them hitting on 4s (tellyporta him). It does suck that they don't get Kultur.

So take a really crappy unit (kanz) Add in a slow infantry model (who doesn't benefit from the Wartrike) and add in a wartrike. So you are left with zero ranged weapons that matter, no CC weapons that are that scary and most of your army will die before turn 2 is over. When you find a way to make Killa Kanz competitive you let everyone else in the ork community know, because a lot of us have been trying for years. And your suggestion above, yeah, that doesn't make them competitive, hell it doesn't even make them survive past turn 2.


Let's ponder this for a moment. Ork Index happened June 2016. Ork Codex was Nov 2018. That's over 2 years.

So then what should GW do? Worry about every possible interaction for index units? They could have changed the rules for the Warboss so that you wouldn't use it, which is the same god-damn net result, but they didn't because it's a waste of time.
Very good point actually. It isn't fair to think GW can remember an index they wrote a year prior (BTW 8th came out in 2017 not 2016) I mean, look how they completely forgot everything in prior editions where Orkz went the better part of a decade without a new codex. Your argument yet again holds no water.


Yea...that's called board control.
So you can use board control during the deployment phase to force your opponent to deploy on the very edge of the deployment zone with his valuable units and he wont put up a screening unit? Wow you are good. Or you could be talking nonsense.



- We're straying pretty far at this point, but suffice to say the RFBC & Gat does 6 wounds - add 2 for Icarus. For a knight that only Chaos has. If you want to drop CP to kill a 160 point model then be my guest. It is in its entirety - a win.

- If you're worried about fluff and rules, then the Wartrike fits the bill entirely - model is a sufficiently minor issue. What model fits the Speed Freeks better than the Wartrike? Claiming a need for the warboss in a 'fluff' perspective for Evil Sunz feels considerably disingenuous when you're using it to buff Evil Sunz Infantry.

- Little escapes a model that moves 20" w/ Ere' We Go or a model that moves 15/16" and charges 10.5" average.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Which models would those be? Please continue!


You know damned well despite your attempts to be facetious. You will likely find no index units in tournaments that don't add significant value, so stop being obtuse.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/03 04:10:58


[im]https://imgur.com/kEUzFF0.png[im]

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Longtime Dakkanaut




So instead of taking a list to a tournament that I like for fun or fluff reasons, I'll instead do the same with less options.

In the same vein, if all I care about is winning (hang the background) I'll still probably find a broken combo if that's all I care about. Your acting like codex 8th is balanced with options, which it really isn't at this point.

This is probably the one of the most option free in terms of unit choices that 40k has had and it's still a mess unless your playing against someone who has the same idea of what a game should be to you. All they've done is trim choices and units down and the still are no were near a balanced game.
   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
Karol wrote:
So then what should GW do? Worry about every possible interaction for index units? They could have changed the rules for the Warboss so that you wouldn't use it, which is the same god-damn net result, but they didn't because it's a waste of time.


But GW doesn't care about rules balance at all. They want people to buy more models, and not use old or 3ed party models, or stuff they build on their own, and that is all.


False. True. True. False.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:


And you spent all that time on the Wazbom. I'd probably bring two or a Mek and use the Projekta, because I'd need just a turn or two of protection. And, again, for the record - a RFBC/Gat Knight can't easily kill a Wazbom in one go.

A RFBC/Gat knight can kill a Wazbom in 1 turn, give him the anti-air gun and if it really matters, give him a strat.



This is confusing. You love the model and wish to field it, but you don't like the rules of the wartrike. So what is your motive, really? Model or rules?

Ready for this.....Both, and the fact that I started playing this game as a Speed Freak evil sun and the idea of not having a warboss on warbike is offensive So add in fluff as well.


Sure they can. Wartrike lets them. Banner gets them hitting on 4s (tellyporta him). It does suck that they don't get Kultur.

So take a really crappy unit (kanz) Add in a slow infantry model (who doesn't benefit from the Wartrike) and add in a wartrike. So you are left with zero ranged weapons that matter, no CC weapons that are that scary and most of your army will die before turn 2 is over. When you find a way to make Killa Kanz competitive you let everyone else in the ork community know, because a lot of us have been trying for years. And your suggestion above, yeah, that doesn't make them competitive, hell it doesn't even make them survive past turn 2.


Let's ponder this for a moment. Ork Index happened June 2016. Ork Codex was Nov 2018. That's over 2 years.

So then what should GW do? Worry about every possible interaction for index units? They could have changed the rules for the Warboss so that you wouldn't use it, which is the same god-damn net result, but they didn't because it's a waste of time.
Very good point actually. It isn't fair to think GW can remember an index they wrote a year prior (BTW 8th came out in 2017 not 2016) I mean, look how they completely forgot everything in prior editions where Orkz went the better part of a decade without a new codex. Your argument yet again holds no water.


Yea...that's called board control.
So you can use board control during the deployment phase to force your opponent to deploy on the very edge of the deployment zone with his valuable units and he wont put up a screening unit? Wow you are good. Or you could be talking nonsense.



- We're straying pretty far at this point, but suffice to say the RFBC & Gat does 6 wounds - add 2 for Icarus. For a knight that only Chaos has. If you want to drop CP to kill a 160 point model then be my guest. It is in its entirety - a win.

- If you're worried about fluff and rules, then the Wartrike fits the bill entirely - model is a sufficiently minor issue. What model fits the Speed Freeks better than the Wartrike? Claiming a need for the warboss in a 'fluff' perspective for Evil Sunz feels considerably disingenuous when you're using it to buff Evil Sunz Infantry.

- Little escapes a model that moves 20" w/ Ere' We Go or a model that moves 15/16" and charges 10.5" average.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Which models would those be? Please continue!


You know damned well despite your attempts to be facetious. You will likely find no index units in tournaments that don't add significant value, so stop being obtuse.

No I don't. That's why I asked you to please continue.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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Here's the simple thing for me and Index Units...

1) Tournaments don't have to allow them, and that is logical to me. That's just another 4-5 books a TO has to have on hand. So excluding a handful of units from each army is 100% fine. If you're attending a tournament you chose to play in that tournament and likewise elected to play this particularly narrow version of 40K. The same goes for people who bring armies with too many models to play in the allotted time - that's 100% on you. No tournament is required to cater to your play style, nor your model collection.

2) In any other environment you can play your Index units. If your friends aren't douche-bags you can even apply codex special rules, or reduce the points on them so it becomes a no-brainer. No one is stopping you from using these units, you just can't use them in a tournament...and that's completely fine.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/03 05:25:11


 
   
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HoundsofDemos wrote:So instead of taking a list to a tournament that I like for fun or fluff reasons, I'll instead do the same with less options.

In the same vein, if all I care about is winning (hang the background) I'll still probably find a broken combo if that's all I care about. Your acting like codex 8th is balanced with options, which it really isn't at this point.

This is probably the one of the most option free in terms of unit choices that 40k has had and it's still a mess unless your playing against someone who has the same idea of what a game should be to you. All they've done is trim choices and units down and the still are no were near a balanced game.


Well, it's one less broken combo; and makes it easier to work with, since they don't have to continue support for and consider how something will affect a unit that was written in 3 years ago.

Also, if the unit was only useful in fluffy lists, then there's no loss for it being stricken from tournament play and this eliminates the chance of something unexpectedly making it good, and if it is currently unexpectedly good, then it probably would be for the best if it was removed since there's not a whole lot they can do about it once it's in the index save a major overhaul to whatever interaction it's benefiting from which might be fine or underpowered otherwise.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
No I don't. That's why I asked you to please continue.


I explained one already: Imagifiers; Index Imperial II. A character that carries the Sisters' Battle Standard. The Battle Standard was changed from granting an additional act of faith on a 4+ under the index faith rules to granting +1 to faith tests under the Beta Codex rules, and changed from being bought on a character to being bought as a squad upgrade. This would be useless, since an Imagifier is basically worthless as a body, but a stratagem exists that makes all ADEPTA SORORITAS units [order agnostic and not checking for the Acts of Faith rule] near a character that passes an Act gain that act's benefit; thus the character can gain a total +2 to acts and for 3CP buff units around her that would ordinarily be unable to or unlikely to ever receive the effect. It's definitely not the strongest thing out there, in part because it's supporting at best a mid-tier faction with limited [but fairly decent options], but it's a very unintended effect that is appreciably stronger than the ability was designed as.


Also, I can definitely see why a Warboss on Bike could be a desired choice from a beyond-fluff standpoint, for the same reason that I want a Canoness with Jump Pack. I have fast units that will outrun their support, and I want my HQ with the buff aura to be able to keep pace with them. You could/can T1 charge incredibly easily with stormboyz with a bikeboss but can't with a trikeboss; that's definitely added capability that has a lot of potential. Bike characters in general offer a lot, since they're all around better than Jump Pack characters. A bike gives additional toughness, speed, and firepower, compared with a pack which just gives speed, it's really just a question of cost.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/03 05:48:47


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
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 Elbows wrote:
Here's the simple thing for me and Index Units...
Spoiler:

1) Tournaments don't have to allow them, and that is logical to me. That's just another 4-5 books a TO has to have on hand. So excluding a handful of units from each army is 100% fine. If you're attending a tournament you chose to play in that tournament and likewise elected to play this particularly narrow version of 40K. The same goes for people who bring armies with too many models to play in the allotted time - that's 100% on you. No tournament is required to cater to your play style, nor your model collection.

2) In any other environment you can play your Index units. If your friends aren't douche-bags you can even apply codex special rules, or reduce the points on them so it becomes a no-brainer. No one is stopping you from using these units, you just can't use them in a tournament...and that's completely fine.


This is a very important part of the game, maybe the most.
   
Made in gb
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
No I don't. That's why I asked you to please continue.


I explained one already: Imagifiers; Index Imperial II. A character that carries the Sisters' Battle Standard. The Battle Standard was changed from granting an additional act of faith on a 4+ under the index faith rules to granting +1 to faith tests under the Beta Codex rules, and changed from being bought on a character to being bought as a squad upgrade. This would be useless, since an Imagifier is basically worthless as a body, but a stratagem exists that makes all ADEPTA SORORITAS units [order agnostic and not checking for the Acts of Faith rule] near a character that passes an Act gain that act's benefit; thus the character can gain a total +2 to acts and for 3CP buff units around her that would ordinarily be unable to or unlikely to ever receive the effect. It's definitely not the strongest thing out there, in part because it's supporting at best a mid-tier faction with limited [but fairly decent options], but it's a very unintended effect that is appreciably stronger than the ability was designed as.


Also, I can definitely see why a Warboss on Bike could be a desired choice from a beyond-fluff standpoint, for the same reason that I want a Canoness with Jump Pack. I have fast units that will outrun their support, and I want my HQ with the buff aura to be able to keep pace with them. You could/can T1 charge incredibly easily with stormboyz with a bikeboss but can't with a trikeboss; that's definitely added capability that has a lot of potential. Bike characters in general offer a lot, since they're all around better than Jump Pack characters. A bike gives additional toughness, speed, and firepower, compared with a pack which just gives speed, it's really just a question of cost.

Perhaps you should let Dae answer the question posed to him?

And Dae - please stop trying to push garbage units on Ork players. Kans are one of the worst units in the book, no sane Ork will take them. Look at their cost and their LD.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/03 06:40:45


 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




False. True. True. False.

all the fast changes, like the one to the SW codex for example, were done only because it could impact their sales. When something is selling well, they don't care how it warps the meta. How long did it take them to change the castellan? a year or so. IG are the prime source of problems with the top imperial armies, and they haven't adressed them at all, or to be more precise, they made stuff better and cheaper for them. It doesn't help balance, but it helps to sell more IG.
just look at how they fix stuff, when they finaly go and fix something. They don't make stuff that was too good, on the same tier as mid tier stuff. Oh no, they make an Inari style update. And it seems like it has been like that for a long time. I haven't played in prior editions, but from what people say GK were too good in 5th ed. At the same time in 6 and 7 edition, according to what people say, they were bottom tier armies. And they are bottom tier armies still in 8th. One would think that after an edition, max two, someone at GW may have thought that this is kind of a unbalanced or unfair. But as there is no GK stuff to sell, and the sells themselfs are kind of on the low side .I assume but I doubt GK sell like hot cakes in US/UK/EU, so they don't care about updating them. Heck they treated the whole WFB game like that for mulitiple editions, only to kill it in the end.
Ah and by the way, I don't think it is evil on GW side to do so. I understand that they aren't friends of their customers. I just think it is stupid, because with a very little effort they could rise the sales of stuff that sell bad, and still have good sales on their main merch.



And Dae - please stop trying to push garbage units on Ork players. Kans are one of the worst units in the book, no sane Ork will take them. Look at their cost and their LD.

Maybe orc players just don't know how to play orcs. One of the playtesters or game designers said that to GK players, and considering that both orks and GK players are w40k players, I see no reason why two or more faction could consist of people not knowing how to properly play their factions.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/03 07:00:40


 
   
Made in us
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NE Ohio, USA

After they said that, did they show or tell you how they think you should be playing GK?
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike





 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:

On top, 3 bonebreakers are 477pts. Bad example I would say.


I think you guys should play in a meta that has them before you crap on them.

Snakebite Bonebreakas wind up being 4+/5++/6+++. The 3 of them are about the same cost as a regular shooty knight and you can spend all game and not kill all of them.

They will be in your army's face turn 1. Either you're shooting them or the Wazboms, but either way it's really hard to crack them before turn 3 unless you have MW spam. Yes, they require other units to operate this way, but so does everything else.

Dae you don't play Orks often enough/in a competitive setting regularly to really comment on Ork tactics. Here's a few responses to just the above (and why it's a bad idea);

1. Every Ork player with the capabilities has tried to make Bonebreakers work.
2. Where is the 5++ from? The Wazzbomm? There's another ton of points.
3. Bonebreakers and the Trikeboss can't fly. So their ability to deal damage is severely limited on maps with terrain, particularly when most of their damage output is from their melee attacks.
4. They aren't difficult to kill.
5. They can't do anything to flyers.
6. Why would anyone want to lock themselves into the Snakebite clan that has by far the worst sub faction trait in a faction that can easily give said sub faction trait out to infantry anyway?
7. They really aren't difficult to kill.
E - 8. What sort of insane/bad ass person puts their units anywhere near the front of their deployment zone if they are against an Ork with 3 Bonebreakas? Any unit they can have on terrain will be on terrain. The rest will be as far back as possible.




I agree with everything on Actual Englishman's list. And I never agree with him on anything, ever, which is by itself enough to prove you more than wrong Daedalus81. If you need help handling bone breakers, feel free to shoot me a message. I have fielded them often enoguh to tell you how to counter them with most armies.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/03 08:52:37


 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
Made in ch
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ccs wrote:
After they said that, did they show or tell you how they think you should be playing GK?


Considering it is gw, i doubt they even have a idea about an army other then marines

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_______________________________

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Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike





SemperMortis wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
Sure they can. Wartrike lets them. Banner gets them hitting on 4s (tellyporta him). It does suck that they don't get Kultur.

So take a really crappy unit (kanz) Add in a slow infantry model (who doesn't benefit from the Wartrike) and add in a wartrike. So you are left with zero ranged weapons that matter, no CC weapons that are that scary and most of your army will die before turn 2 is over. When you find a way to make Killa Kanz competitive you let everyone else in the ork community know, because a lot of us have been trying for years. And your suggestion above, yeah, that doesn't make them competitive, hell it doesn't even make them survive past turn 2.

I would like to add that I did exactly that in a friendly game, even with a morkanaut carrying a KFF behind them and drawing fire, plus using the shoot twice stratagem from vigilus.
Guess what? They killed 3 helblasters and 4 intercessors - totally worth 409 points and 5 CP.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
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Notice in the NEW SM FAQ's - Index Chaplains not only didnt get the full Litanies, their current litany was reworded to not be automatic - you now have to roll for it.

The Forgeworld Chaplain models got the full Litanies.

They're letting us kill off the Index like they're letting us kill off the 1.0 Marines.

My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
 
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