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Made in de
Fresh-Faced New User





I really don't see a use for the flail. Only enemy unit that gets close and personal are the scourge "crabs" and they don't really care for S7...

I have to take a closer look at the new Scourge fliers. I got the Edens dinosaur model last year heavily discounted, it's great to see I can finally use it now. I'm not really sold on the long range guns, scourge always felt like an army that likes to get in your face.
   
Made in ca
You Sunk My Battleship!




nobody wrote:
It feels like it’s intended for a meta that currently doesn’t exist


This is why I kept asking TTC to post a batrep or AAR or just unit lists of their recent games. Because I'm all but certain now their internal meta has mutated into something entirely unlike how everyone else in the world plays the game. OR, they just don't playtest the game themselves at all. Equal odds really. The lead designer has made some stray comments that support the 'no playtesting' explanation.

   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




I think it's a case of "design a model and then find a niche" and they happened to design a tesla-tank that would make sense in a game where infantry can melee tanks like 40k, not so much DZC.
   
Made in ca
You Sunk My Battleship!




Cronch wrote:
I think it's a case of "design a model and then find a niche" and they happened to design a tesla-tank


Interestingly, we know that's not the case. This unit got leaked by accident back in April. The telsa top was designed after the rules were written.


   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Sometimes an issue with wargames is that the designers end up making niche and situational models because they've already done the "core" stuff.
Ergo its hard to add models to a generalist core because you've already got it; so you keep making models for collectors and customers and those who either don't care or aren't as skilled or generic in how they build armies.


IT can explain why sometimes you get new models that are "just all round better than something we had before" or "are just so niche that you'll never use them".

A Blog in Miniature

The Swarm Arises

Do you ever notice, sometimes, there's an extra post? 
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

I was thinking of using those Tesla turrets for some kind of Dropfleet conversion. For the tanks themselves, the turret doesn’t seem to fit the lore very well either. A shield generator, Electronic Warfare suite or AA application for that turret would make more sense to me, or some specialized anti-Titan/Titan support role if those ever come out.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/18 19:15:23


   
Made in ca
You Sunk My Battleship!




The entirety of the lore we have for the flail is
The Flail mounts an electrostatic pulse generator known colloquially as the Tesla Array; a weapon which projects a bubble of circuit-frying, crew-cooking charge around itself.


TTC really can't be bothered to write more than that a single sentence on any their new models. I miss the old Hawk experimental rules that gave you whole paragraphs of background and lore to explain the units.

Now an area-denial EMP generator sounds a hell of a lot more like the UCM I know. Something that causes aircraft near it to roll on the crash table, or reduces the actions of nearby vehicles like the Subjugator, which I still think should instead reduce movement ranges in a bubble considering its lore:
Its the Micro Subjugation Field that puts human forces most at ill-ease, manipulating gravity in such a way as to impede all enemy ground forces in the immediate area.


Dave wrote a game starting from fiction and versimilitude first principles. The systems made sense because you could intuit them naturally. It felt real, which gave it a gravity and sense or purpose.

Lewis Clarke rewrote it as a game first and only. And it feels so shallow in comparison for it.
   
Made in gb
Arch Magos w/ 4 Meg of RAM




United Kingdom

WIP Wed: New Set of Dreads (no, not hair)

Resistance is never futile! Resistance is the only way we are able to persevere. Resistance is the only way Forward.


Hello everybody and welcome to our newest edition of Work In progress Wednesday. What do we have for you today you may ask? RESISTANCE DREADNOUGHTS!

That’s right, space behemoths that are dwarfed only by actual planets. We have 4 tasty dreads to show you in various levels of completion but one thing they all have in common… They are siiiick!



Resistance Dreadnoughts

Large, in charge and with the ability of a full assault battling barrage is this bad boy, with its super unique front end sure to strike terror in the opponents eye. The lines on this dread just screams style to me, like a Cadillac rolling down a Miami beach front.

You may have seen this one in our UK Games Expo roundup post (or at the show itself). A little tester of what can be done with the kit, this one isn’t getting the full Fin paint treatment, but we thought was fun anyway.

This is actually one of the smallest dreads you can make with the kit. It’s fully modular, allowing different sizes and styles!



No we are not in a chop shop but this ever so slightly bigger beast is still under construction. Its shaping up to be a formidable opponent though. Just look at the size of that antenna!



Fin is still working on the assembly of this fine ship, but will be painting it up to show exactly what you can do with the set. There are so many pieces in this kit it’s unreal. Dave really went nuts on the whole “Lego in space” thing here!



Last but not least by any measure is the baby of the group. Don’t think of baby as being small, just smaller then its counter parts. This little legend has turrets on top, hybrid guns on the side and 360 degrees of destruction to send towards the enemy. Smaller but no less deadly. We will resist, we will secure victory.

The Resistance Dreadnought kit is coming your way very soon, although some assembly will be required! We’re excited to see what everyone does with their dreads. As you can see, there are quite a lot of ways to make yours unique!

Thats it for another WIP Wednesday. Be sure to keep an eye out on our webstore and right here on the TT community site for any updates on when we will be releasing these glorious space demons.

Take care getting back to regular life.
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

They are gradually becoming Snap Ships.

Love the possibilities of the kit. They could have chosen a less brick-shaped final form to show off, though.

   
Made in eg
[MOD]
Keeper of the Adeptus Arbites Flame






Cairo, Egypt



My first thought was plastic or resin, but my second thought was who cares, either way this is a must buy.

EDIT-squinting at the sprues I would guess resin.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/02 06:21:28


 
   
Made in nl
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?





The Netherlands

I really love the modularity of it!

Bits Blitz Designs - 3D printing a dark futuristic universe 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




I really wish they cut down on frigate-sized guns...
   
Made in nl
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?





The Netherlands

Cronch wrote:
I really wish they cut down on frigate-sized guns...

Fully agreed here, it does really diminish the sense of scale.

Bits Blitz Designs - 3D printing a dark futuristic universe 
   
Made in gb
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard







I think they should double down and have guns that actually fire frigates!

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in ca
You Sunk My Battleship!




So, "Battle Boxes" and the Vulture / Polecat

https://community.ttcombat.com/2021/08/25/reinforcements-inbound-wip-wednesday/

These new boxes will offer the start of a Battlegroup in an easy box. With some familiar and some brand new miniatures, we’ll have a whole range of Battlegroup boxes to make it easier than ever to expand your Dropzone armies.

Each faction will be getting Battlegroup boxes full of models to expand your forces in a quick and easy way. The first ones coming your way are Armour Battlegroups, offering new vehicles to your army.

The Battlegroups will be a mix of new and existing faction models tailor made to provide a wide range of reinforcements to your faction. Such as the new UCM Polecat. It’s like a Wolverine Scout Buggy on steroids!

Full coverage is the aim of the game with these reinforcement faction boxes. From air, with the Falcon, to ground, with the Gladius Heavy Tank and maybe everything in-between

While the Katana isn’t in the first UCM Battlegroup box, we aim to represent almost every unit in the army in a box in the future!


Vulture then Polecat being painted - https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1148392556?filter=all&sort=time

And a tentative release date from a interview this past weekend. (not much DZC/DFC content beyond the below quote at all)

https://www.goonhammer.com/the-goonhammer-interview-lewis-clarke-from-ttcombat/

Lewis: So we’re releasing battle group boxes in I think it’s just over a month now. Which is going to be if you bought your starter army, here’s what you buy next. In the box is a bunch of different models for a really good price, with some new models in there as well, for good measure. That’s our first push to really get Dropzone into stores and make it store-accessible, as retail friendly as we possibly can.


   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

This is a great idea. And if they can get some of these boxes into US FLGSes, Miniature Market, or even on Amazon, it will make Dropzone much easier to buy.

   
Made in ca
You Sunk My Battleship!




TTC was able to get a crate across the Atlantic to Golden Distribution, but that's looking more and more like a one-time thing instead of a sustained supply chain. Game Kastle is the ONLY significant online retailer in the Americas attempting to sell Fleet/Zone, and their pages are 75% Out of Stock / Pending Restock. Kickass Mail Order is the best stateside source at the moment.

It's a good idea if they're actually planning to make a push into the physical retail market again, but unless it carries a noticeable discount it ain't going to help online sales much. Dunno. I'm curious to hear more, size of the box and price point mostly. Are they targeting the same ~$55 as the faction starters?

Interesting they're starting with an Armour group first, the vast majority of recommendations I see (and offer myself) are to expand with elite troops and light dropships, as failure to bring elite infantry is practically conceding CQB under current rules.
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

Perhaps their sales don’t reflect game performance. I can see people buying tanks and gunships just to paint or use for other games, where their infantry are less useful. I have no interest in buying their infantry myself, and may never get around to cleaning or basing the infantry that came with the starter sets.

In your experience, how much does the game drive miniatures sales, as opposed to miniatures selling themselves and maybe the game?

   
Made in ca
You Sunk My Battleship!




I've seen the papercraft terrain used by a lot of BT and Titanicus players, and very rarely the models used with other games. The overwhelming majority of dropzone models I've seen around the net, in person, every where, are being used with the Dropzone game. Dropfleet gets a bit more off-game use.

I don't blame you skipping the starter infantry if they're the plastic ones. Just awful. But the metal versions are best-in-scale quality, easily.

I really think the game does drive the mini sales. And I believe they think so as well, considering these battleboxes are being presented as a game legal battlegroup, an expansion of the starter sets.

I keep coming back to this idea that their internal meta is just bizarrely different than everyone elses and the game's dormancy after the BFE faceplant and quarantine have isolated them from seeing how divergent the game they think they're selling and the game people are buying minis for have grown apart.

Or maybe I'm totally off base. They don't talk about playing the game in their blog, on FB, in discord, in interviews, or in person from accounts of talking to them at events like UKGE. A bat rep or AAR from them, even a short one, would be highly insightful.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/22 23:14:43


 
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

If you want good proof that a game sells models look at Age of Sigmar. GW made the mistake of thinking that games didn't sell models and shelved Old World and did AoS - granted there was more to it than that; but it proved without doubt that for a wargame, the game-* most certainly sells the models and also markets them.


When I see boutique model lines they tend to be very different; more focused on things like 75mm scale for painters; meanwhile both dropfleet and zone are smaller models by far.


That said I do think that they could market the wargames more so; esp Dropfleet. They don't seem to have put as much energy into it, which is surprising considering that their former biggest competition - Spartan Games - folded and left the market pretty much open. GW haven't stepped back in at all (as yet); meanwhile Wayland have rebooted the sea version of Dystopian Wars; written out the land entirely and Firestorm Armada is very delayed.

In theory Dropfleet really should have soared up bigger than it is now I think.

That said I do think they are held back by some model design aspects. Eg scourge spaceships are a nightmare to clean because they put a lot of ribbing on the mould line join point.
Their plastics are very interesting; very hard but very high detail and having plastic core sets should have them in a great position for fast expansion of sales.



*or at least the potential to play the game

A Blog in Miniature

The Swarm Arises

Do you ever notice, sometimes, there's an extra post? 
   
Made in us
Da Head Honcho Boss Grot




New Jersey, State of Perfection

slyphic wrote:
I've seen the papercraft terrain used by a lot of BT and Titanicus players, and very rarely the models used with other games. The overwhelming majority of dropzone models I've seen around the net, in person, every where, are being used with the Dropzone game. Dropfleet gets a bit more off-game use.

I don't blame you skipping the starter infantry if they're the plastic ones. Just awful. But the metal versions are best-in-scale quality, easily.

I really think the game does drive the mini sales. And I believe they think so as well, considering these battleboxes are being presented as a game legal battlegroup, an expansion of the starter sets.

I keep coming back to this idea that their internal meta is just bizarrely different than everyone elses and the game's dormancy after the BFE faceplant and quarantine have isolated them from seeing how divergent the game they think they're selling and the game people are buying minis for have grown apart.

Or maybe I'm totally off base. They don't talk about playing the game in their blog, on FB, in discord, in interviews, or in person from accounts of talking to them at events like UKGE. A bat rep or AAR from them, even a short one, would be highly insightful.


I was kinda thinking about this last night as I went through a collection of about 100 or so PHR and UCM dropzone/dropfleet blisters (there were a few resistance ones in there too) and sorted them out into different parts of my queue. The listbuilding limitations (especially the most recent iteration which has done away with PHRs ability to take mixed walker units and evidently simplified a lot of units down into just a handful with more unit options (ex: the Enyo and Hyperion are gone, they are now Odins with different weapons) ) don't allow me to play the game that I want to play - the core rules for the most part are fine, though there are some things I would adjust, but between how expensive (points wise) everything is and how restricting the army building rules are, I actually can't play the game the way I envision it being played in my head. Like the concept of dropzone commander as a game is cooler than the actual game itself, not because of the rules - but because how its being played.

I'm thinking of doing some homebrew playtest games with a friend, I wanna see how it plays when dropships are free (maybe heavy armed dropships like the Njord maybe will have an upgrade cost from a free dropship instead) for up to your armies needed lift capacity, plus some slightly tweaked battlegroup rules to give a little more flexibility in listbuilding. I'm thinking 2k points with free dropships might be a good sweetspot to give it a try.

That said I do think that they could market the wargames more so; esp Dropfleet. They don't seem to have put as much energy into it, which is surprising considering that their former biggest competition - Spartan Games - folded and left the market pretty much open. GW haven't stepped back in at all (as yet); meanwhile Wayland have rebooted the sea version of Dystopian Wars; written out the land entirely and Firestorm Armada is very delayed.

In theory Dropfleet really should have soared up bigger than it is now I think.


It was Hawks/TTC opportunity to waste, and they wasted it. 100% agreed with you here, they were handed a wide open marketplace with their most immediate competition more or less completely erased from the table and absent any meaningful presence, and they did not take advantage of that opportunity or do much of anything in that timeframe. I'm sure theres perfectly valid logistical reasons for it and that there were some other factors involved that I haven't considered (GW making a surprise comeback from the deaths (Im exaggerating) doorstep), but they could have absolutely dominated their niche market segment(s) if they had done things right.

This ain't no pansy GW Armor, son - Digital Sculpting Plog, Now with Heavy Weapon Platforms!
Sympathy for the Devil, or: The Project Log from Hell

Ma55ter_fett wrote:It reads like the ramblings of a Nigerian lobotomized Shakespeare typed into a cellphone with a very aggressive autocomplete function.
 
   
Made in ca
You Sunk My Battleship!




PHR walker units being forced into homogenity is such a dumb move. And even dumber justification. "it was too confusing for new players". Like hell it was. Collateral confuses new players. Aerial transport disembarking rules confuse new players. Indirect rules confuse *current* players.

But the actual answer is even dumber still. It was too much work to support in the online builder.

The naming collapse was "to reduce the clutter in the builder" yet it didn't really, at all. It just makes it take longer to describe units now. I can't tell a new player I've got a squad of Type-2s, an Odin, two Enyo and a Hyperion. Now I have a squad of 1 Odin with railguns, a squad of 2 Odin with smoothbore cannons, and I can't even take the Odin with hyperion laser in the same group.

It detracts from the faction identity and gameplay to no tabletop benefit whatsoever. Again, like they aren't playing the game themselves.

TTC says they're in the middle of retooling their resin casting equipment, and I hope they finish soon. They have never and will never have a better window of opportunity to grow DFC than they have this very moment. Star Wars Armada has announce no new releases for 18 months. Firestorm Armada is at least that far away from release. The field is wide open, no competition. They have a mature game of great quality. They just have to capitalize on it.
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council






If I was to say what really doomed this game to relative obscurity with dedicated but small fan base was Dropfleet itself.
This game was poised to take second tier alongside WM/H, Malifaux and other games that while not GW, they siphon players from GW.
But hawk got to greedy and wanted a second game.
Dropfleet should have came out about 2-3 years later when it did when Hawk was more entrenced in the market.

5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




So just getting into this game and its seems that the consensus is just play 1.1?. also buying some elite infantry seems cheep enough that if these new battlegroup box sets are well priced doing both would be an option for new players.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




I honestly think anyone that wanted to play DFC is already playing it or grew disillusioned with it. The big thing with both drop games is that they have a layer of completely conventional, fine gameplay, and then the hard core of "WTF" concept that makes it just too much for the majority.

In Dropfleet, it's the fact that your fleet is just there to babysit the dropships. In dropzone, the fact that half the rules focus on how infantry acts in buildings.I didn't count the pages,but it literally feels like the rulebook rushes by the basics of movement and shooting, and then dumps all of the garrison/searching for objective rules at once and game with amazing tanks and mechs is once again reduced to window dressing for the EXCITING game of tiny infantry shooting at each other inside a building. In both cases they have amazing models of this big,scary, impressive stuff, and it's front and center on the artwork and advertising shots but in reality it's just there so the main game of hide and seek/chit-counting on the clusters can happen.

If someone asked me for a game about sci-fi mech/tank warfare, I'd never recommend DZC, because it's not.
   
Made in gb
Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

I do think "Dropfleet" needs to add in rules and options for other battle types. The dropzone system is neat and it gives it a new layer over many other ship based games. I would certainly not "drop" it; just provide it alongside your conventional "two or more fleets shooting each other to bits" and other objective types.

I think its also a good way to east new players in. A straight fight is much easier for new people to wrap their heads around then you can start adding in more exotic objectives and ground control points and such.

A Blog in Miniature

The Swarm Arises

Do you ever notice, sometimes, there's an extra post? 
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

 Overread wrote:
I do think "Dropfleet" needs to add in rules and options for other battle types. The dropzone system is neat and it gives it a new layer over many other ship based games. I would certainly not "drop" it; just provide it alongside your conventional "two or more fleets shooting each other to bits" and other objective types.

I think its also a good way to east new players in. A straight fight is much easier for new people to wrap their heads around then you can start adding in more exotic objectives and ground control points and such.


Yep quite a few of our game group were put of by their first games of Dropfleet - having a true fleet game as an intro / alt to the much more involved drop element would be good.

However there were other issues which for us made the made game inferior to say Battlefleet Gothic or ACTA:B5 - for example the way it handled fightes and bombers - the fact that you could not have your fighters defending your ships against bombers was just wrong. Also there were some major balance issues that reared their head straight away.

Some interesting mechanics like the signiture rule but just not enough to hold players interest.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/23 14:31:24


I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in ca
You Sunk My Battleship!




lurch wrote:So just getting into this game and its seems that the consensus is just play 1.1?


The problem is there is no consensus. v1.1/classic CQB is fiddly and weird, roll-on deployment undermined the game, conventional weapons could out-demo Demo weapons, there's a few unit balance issues that didn't fully get addressed before the next edition. Beta fixed most of these problems but introduced new problems like tracking collateral tokens, 'Approaches', drop'n'shoot. Then v2 comes along and takes some of the fixes from the beta, and introduces a whole slew of new problems. 2+ years on, it's crawling slowly away from the mistakes v2 made, but it's a different game because of all the darlings the current designer refuses to give up. Indirect Fire is a fething mess because he refuses to admit indirect fire should never be 'hull down'. Contrast with Melee weapons which have gone full circle from v2 release rules all the way back to essentially the rules from v1.0 in 2012.

We play a homebrew version based off Beta with the dumb gak thrown out and a few tweaks from v2 backported.

Cronch wrote:I honestly think anyone that wanted to play DFC is already playing it or grew disillusioned with it. The big thing with both drop games is that they have a layer of completely conventional, fine gameplay, and then the hard core of "WTF" concept that makes it just too much for the majority.


Overread wrote:I do think "Dropfleet" needs to add in rules and options for other battle types.


Either of you played recently? There's been a big push to use more scenario types than sector control. It's gotten more varied. I'm also a big fan of 'Ravanar's Pendulum', a set of alternate ground combat rules the Hawk playtesters were refining before the company went tits up.

Page 27 - Ground Assets
replace table with
"only bombardment armor values"
"cancellation timing and value"

Page 28 - Resolve Combats:
a) The player with the lowest Initiative selects a Cluster and a Sector within the Cluster.

b) In order, the players perform the following cancellations. All possible cancellations must be made before moving on to the next step:
1. 1 Armor token cancels 1 opposing Armor token
2. 1 Infantry token cancels 1 opposing Infantry token
3. 2 Infantry tokens cancel 1 opposing Armor token
4. 1 Armor token cancels 1 Infantry token and survives to hold the sector.


So instead of a chit based dice game, you win ground combats by blowing up dropships, majorly shifting the action back to the fleet side and speeding up the game as well. It's how we play. And a smattering of other tweaks out of Adepticon like Torpedoes being able to bombard ground targets and resolving immediately if the target is within Thrust range.

Mr Morden wrote:the way it handled fightes and bombers - the fact that you could not have your fighters defending your ships against bombers was just wrong. Also there were some major balance issues that reared their head straight away.


Um, y'all must have gotten that wrong. Fighters defending against bombers is a core gameplay element. You launch a squadron to defend a specific ship, and the fighters increase the Point Defense value of the ship, which directly defends against bombers. The timing and resolution gets a bit convoluted and could be explained better, maybe a diagram or step-by-step walk through.

The biggest remaining problem is every faction has one or two ships that are just garbage. Trap ships you should not build. Otherwise, it's pretty well balanced actually as long as you use different types of scenarios; splash in some station assaults, a Raze mission, etc.
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

Um, y'all must have gotten that wrong. Fighters defending against bombers is a core gameplay element. You launch a squadron to defend a specific ship, and the fighters increase the Point Defense value of the ship, which directly defends against bombers. The timing and resolution gets a bit convoluted and could be explained better, maybe a diagram or step-by-step walk through.

We were more looking for - your fighter squadrons defending your ship intercept and destroy incoming bomber squadrons - especially unescorted ones.

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in ca
You Sunk My Battleship!




Mr Morden wrote:We were more looking for - your fighter squadrons defending your ship intercept and destroy incoming bomber squadrons - especially unescorted ones.


I guess I don't see a meaningful distinction for the overall strategy. You wanted the fighters to be a independent element, zipping around the table? I guess just different degrees of abstraction for different people. Then again, I'm one of those guys that got into the game precisely because it's NOT two fleets duking it out in a line in deep space, because that makes no kind of sense to me. I blame too much milSF reading and Project Rho - http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/ I'm not looking for space Trafalgar. (nothing wrong with Trafalgar, I enjoy a good wooden-ships iron-men tall ship game as well)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/23 17:02:56


 
   
 
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