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Made in it
Stormin' Stompa




Italy

 alextroy wrote:
Karol wrote:Like selling a car and its gas tank separate. Making an BA or SW player buy the SM and BA codex to get rules for their army, is something like that. And it is not just an update like in the case of waiting for a supplement that fixs your book for 2-3 years, as bad as it maybe.
Not really true. From what we have been told you can purchase Codex Space Marines and run BA, SW, or DA directly from the book. However, there are options for those factions that are not in the book. So CSM is functional for BA, DW, or DA.

So a better analogy is GW is selling you a car and then providing upgrades options like power windows, keyless entry, and super fancy stereo set. The basic car works just fine, but you may want to send some money on heated seats.


Yeah you can play those SW, DA and BA that used to be standalone chapters but without tons of their unique stuff, to the point that you're basically playing a different army, or SM chapter to the very least.

It's like watching some like the last Avengers movie in an old black and white TV. You can watch it entirely, but it isn't the same thing and what you're missing is so big that probably it doesn't worth the effort (and the investment in the book) to play with just the general SM codex. It's a better analogy than the one involving the car because the car just has one puprose, to transport dude A to point B and it can do it perfectly without the upgrades options. A movie like Avengers relies a lot on visuals and in an old tv lots of its potential, and part of the purpose of the movie itself, is simply lost.

Orks 7000
Space Wolves 4000
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Not Online!!! wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Spoiler:

the_scotsman wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
The Kellermorph thing is a perfect example of how GW treats Astartes players with kid gloves these days. They can't be expected to win a fair fight, so they're given all sorts of advantages, and anyone who's beating them is nerfed mercilessly... gotta keep that cash cow happy.

I played Necrons and AdMech too and have issues with the Kellermorph. Your move.


That doesn't actually invalidate his point.

It is entirely possible that GW nerfed the Kellermorph purely because of how it was good against marines and that nerf helping other factions was entirely coincidental and not something GW intended.

Not saying it is likely, but it is within the realm of possibility, especially as GW has demonstrated time and again a complete lack of understanding the implications for the game of the rules they write.


Except that that's the straw version of my point. I contrasted the damage that the kelermorph on the drop with the damage that pretty much any reliable, decent assassin model does on the charge vs typical T4 4++ characters. Spoiler alert, it's not that different, and the kelermorph is easier to take off the table than almost any of the competition since he's only got T3 and 5++ vs T4 4++ for imperial assassins, T3 3++ for Solitaires, etc. All the complaints made about the kelermorph, could be made about the eversor assassin, or the solitaire, who are both perfectly happy to make his points back by smacking an infantry unit or two around instead of assassinating a character.

And of course, everyone will scream and cry about that average unsaved 4.52 wounds from the kelermorph but a blood angels smash captain can deal 6.25 unsaved wounds to something with a 4++, before you bother with any relics, warlord traits, extra damage stratagems, whatever.

People made hay about the fact that the kelermorph could, if he spent 3CP, choose to attack twice, dealing craAaAaAaAzy damage, a thing that every single marine and pretty much every chaos marine unit can do on demand. An ability that's been in the game since the very first codex in 8th.

But it's OK if blood angel hammer man can cost 108 points and can charge in suicidally and spend 5Cp to fight 3 times, that's perfectly acceptable because he is a space man. The boundary for where people will start to cry "immersion breaking!" is 6" off the dirt for anything that's not a marine, and up in the stratosphere for anything that is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
Karol wrote:Like selling a car and its gas tank separate. Making an BA or SW player buy the SM and BA codex to get rules for their army, is something like that. And it is not just an update like in the case of waiting for a supplement that fixs your book for 2-3 years, as bad as it maybe.
Not really true. From what we have been told you can purchase Codex Space Marines and run BA, SW, or DA directly from the book. However, there are options for those factions that are not in the book. So CSM is functional for BA, DW, or DA.

So a better analogy is GW is selling you a car and then providing upgrades options like power windows, keyless entry, and super fancy stereo set. The basic car works just fine, but you may want to send some money on heated seats.

You know people try to say that, and my anwser to it is. Try playing the GK codex without the PA rule set. Can you legaly do it? yes. Does it give an army that works? no. It is exactly like a car without an engine. You can take a trip in one too, by pushing it all the way, but how many people are willing to do that.



Yep, agreed.

Say, why do you figure it took GW 2-3 years to fix what was clearly busted ass broken immediately at the time of release when it came to GK.

it couldnt possibly be...that GW routinely doesn't give a gak about its less popular factions and creates a self-fulfilling prophecy of those factions remaining unpopular by neglecting them for long periods of time.

Hmmm its weird in 5th it felt like GK were this hugely popular faction that everyone played, and then GW gave them gak rules and 0 model support for 3 editions in a row, now theyre scraping the bottom of the barrel.

it's almost like the inherent appeal of marines ISNT enough to make a faction more popular.

its almost like if GW didnt put out a single model for marines 2 editions in a row and kept them bottom tier in competitive play, next to nobody would be playing them come 11th ed.

it's wild how we have this example sitting right in front of our noses of the meteoric fall in popularity of the grey knights faction, a marine faction, since 5th edition yet people still pretend when it comes to tyranids the fact that nobody plays them has nothing to do with their not getting a model since 2014 and having horrible awful boring rules edition after edition is just because of some inherent unlikeability of the faction.


Literallg nobody defended Slamguinus, so basically you're just looking to be a victim.


Actually people did defend Slamguinus, because atleast initially, the rest of the dex BA was marines 1.0 bad.

Granted, it's also the asumption that a faction with 1 good option for comp can be considered "healthy".

That's not defending Slamguinus, that's just saying "you better fix the rest of the codex".

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought




Nottingham

 Blackie wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
Karol wrote:Like selling a car and its gas tank separate. Making an BA or SW player buy the SM and BA codex to get rules for their army, is something like that. And it is not just an update like in the case of waiting for a supplement that fixs your book for 2-3 years, as bad as it maybe.
Not really true. From what we have been told you can purchase Codex Space Marines and run BA, SW, or DA directly from the book. However, there are options for those factions that are not in the book. So CSM is functional for BA, DW, or DA.

So a better analogy is GW is selling you a car and then providing upgrades options like power windows, keyless entry, and super fancy stereo set. The basic car works just fine, but you may want to send some money on heated seats.


Yeah you can play those SW, DA and BA that used to be standalone chapters but without tons of their unique stuff, to the point that you're basically playing a different army, or SM chapter to the very least.

It's like watching some like the last Avengers movie in an old black and white TV. You can watch it entirely, but it isn't the same thing and what you're missing is so big that probably it doesn't worth the effort (and the investment in the book) to play with just the general SM codex. It's a better analogy than the one involving the car because the car just has one puprose, to transport dude A to point B and it can do it perfectly without the upgrades options. A movie like Avengers relies a lot on visuals and in an old tv lots of its potential, and part of the purpose of the movie itself, is simply lost.
Just to clarify, because the Ultramarines have a bunch of unique units and characters too - are you agreeing that the UM ALSO need two books for their army? And, while we're at it, all the other First Founders too, if people use any of the unique features in the supplements?

Also, if a BA/DA army doesn't feature any "unique" units, is it still a BA/DA army? Is a DA/BA army defined by those unique units, and wouldn't be one if not? Because I think that's incredibly reductionist. What, if I play UM without Tyrannic War Vets, Honour Guard and Victrix Guard, I'm not playing Ultramarines?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/24 13:12:44


Read the history of the Charadon Crusade: The Crusade of Fury was at an end.
Join the Crion Crusade: I think it's the combination of butt jokes, democratic necrons, explosions, and mind-fething that draws people to this Crusade like moths to a bug zapper - War Kitten
Rippy wrote:Never forgetti, template spaghetti.
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Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Spoiler:

the_scotsman wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
The Kellermorph thing is a perfect example of how GW treats Astartes players with kid gloves these days. They can't be expected to win a fair fight, so they're given all sorts of advantages, and anyone who's beating them is nerfed mercilessly... gotta keep that cash cow happy.

I played Necrons and AdMech too and have issues with the Kellermorph. Your move.


That doesn't actually invalidate his point.

It is entirely possible that GW nerfed the Kellermorph purely because of how it was good against marines and that nerf helping other factions was entirely coincidental and not something GW intended.

Not saying it is likely, but it is within the realm of possibility, especially as GW has demonstrated time and again a complete lack of understanding the implications for the game of the rules they write.


Except that that's the straw version of my point. I contrasted the damage that the kelermorph on the drop with the damage that pretty much any reliable, decent assassin model does on the charge vs typical T4 4++ characters. Spoiler alert, it's not that different, and the kelermorph is easier to take off the table than almost any of the competition since he's only got T3 and 5++ vs T4 4++ for imperial assassins, T3 3++ for Solitaires, etc. All the complaints made about the kelermorph, could be made about the eversor assassin, or the solitaire, who are both perfectly happy to make his points back by smacking an infantry unit or two around instead of assassinating a character.

And of course, everyone will scream and cry about that average unsaved 4.52 wounds from the kelermorph but a blood angels smash captain can deal 6.25 unsaved wounds to something with a 4++, before you bother with any relics, warlord traits, extra damage stratagems, whatever.

People made hay about the fact that the kelermorph could, if he spent 3CP, choose to attack twice, dealing craAaAaAaAzy damage, a thing that every single marine and pretty much every chaos marine unit can do on demand. An ability that's been in the game since the very first codex in 8th.

But it's OK if blood angel hammer man can cost 108 points and can charge in suicidally and spend 5Cp to fight 3 times, that's perfectly acceptable because he is a space man. The boundary for where people will start to cry "immersion breaking!" is 6" off the dirt for anything that's not a marine, and up in the stratosphere for anything that is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
Karol wrote:Like selling a car and its gas tank separate. Making an BA or SW player buy the SM and BA codex to get rules for their army, is something like that. And it is not just an update like in the case of waiting for a supplement that fixs your book for 2-3 years, as bad as it maybe.
Not really true. From what we have been told you can purchase Codex Space Marines and run BA, SW, or DA directly from the book. However, there are options for those factions that are not in the book. So CSM is functional for BA, DW, or DA.

So a better analogy is GW is selling you a car and then providing upgrades options like power windows, keyless entry, and super fancy stereo set. The basic car works just fine, but you may want to send some money on heated seats.

You know people try to say that, and my anwser to it is. Try playing the GK codex without the PA rule set. Can you legaly do it? yes. Does it give an army that works? no. It is exactly like a car without an engine. You can take a trip in one too, by pushing it all the way, but how many people are willing to do that.



Yep, agreed.

Say, why do you figure it took GW 2-3 years to fix what was clearly busted ass broken immediately at the time of release when it came to GK.

it couldnt possibly be...that GW routinely doesn't give a gak about its less popular factions and creates a self-fulfilling prophecy of those factions remaining unpopular by neglecting them for long periods of time.

Hmmm its weird in 5th it felt like GK were this hugely popular faction that everyone played, and then GW gave them gak rules and 0 model support for 3 editions in a row, now theyre scraping the bottom of the barrel.

it's almost like the inherent appeal of marines ISNT enough to make a faction more popular.

its almost like if GW didnt put out a single model for marines 2 editions in a row and kept them bottom tier in competitive play, next to nobody would be playing them come 11th ed.

it's wild how we have this example sitting right in front of our noses of the meteoric fall in popularity of the grey knights faction, a marine faction, since 5th edition yet people still pretend when it comes to tyranids the fact that nobody plays them has nothing to do with their not getting a model since 2014 and having horrible awful boring rules edition after edition is just because of some inherent unlikeability of the faction.


Literallg nobody defended Slamguinus, so basically you're just looking to be a victim.


Actually people did defend Slamguinus, because atleast initially, the rest of the dex BA was marines 1.0 bad.

Granted, it's also the asumption that a faction with 1 good option for comp can be considered "healthy".

That's not defending Slamguinus, that's just saying "you better fix the rest of the codex".

Their argument at the time was, that Slamguinus is fine because the rest sucked.
That is a defensive argument for the smashcaptain.

The later part is just my view on the general dex health and what was /is considered healthy, especially in regards to tournament data.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




That's not really correct. People used the same argument with Flyrants in 6th/7th but that wasn't defending Flyrants themselves. It's literally just because it's Marines.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/24 13:36:44


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor




Tacoma, WA, USA

Karol wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
Karol wrote:Like selling a car and its gas tank separate. Making an BA or SW player buy the SM and BA codex to get rules for their army, is something like that. And it is not just an update like in the case of waiting for a supplement that fixs your book for 2-3 years, as bad as it maybe.
Not really true. From what we have been told you can purchase Codex Space Marines and run BA, SW, or DA directly from the book. However, there are options for those factions that are not in the book. So CSM is functional for BA, DW, or DA.

So a better analogy is GW is selling you a car and then providing upgrades options like power windows, keyless entry, and super fancy stereo set. The basic car works just fine, but you may want to send some money on heated seats.

You know people try to say that, and my anwser to it is. Try playing the GK codex without the PA rule set. Can you legaly do it? yes. Does it give an army that works? no. It is exactly like a car without an engine. You can take a trip in one too, by pushing it all the way, but how many people are willing to do that.
Erik Lathouroas won Briscon in 2019 with pure Grey Knights, so I’d say the army is not fully unplayable without PA. It’s definitely better with it and needs the boost, especially after CSM 2, but it was playable years after publishing despite your complaints to the opposite.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba





Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Spoiler:

the_scotsman wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
The Kellermorph thing is a perfect example of how GW treats Astartes players with kid gloves these days. They can't be expected to win a fair fight, so they're given all sorts of advantages, and anyone who's beating them is nerfed mercilessly... gotta keep that cash cow happy.

I played Necrons and AdMech too and have issues with the Kellermorph. Your move.


That doesn't actually invalidate his point.

It is entirely possible that GW nerfed the Kellermorph purely because of how it was good against marines and that nerf helping other factions was entirely coincidental and not something GW intended.

Not saying it is likely, but it is within the realm of possibility, especially as GW has demonstrated time and again a complete lack of understanding the implications for the game of the rules they write.


Except that that's the straw version of my point. I contrasted the damage that the kelermorph on the drop with the damage that pretty much any reliable, decent assassin model does on the charge vs typical T4 4++ characters. Spoiler alert, it's not that different, and the kelermorph is easier to take off the table than almost any of the competition since he's only got T3 and 5++ vs T4 4++ for imperial assassins, T3 3++ for Solitaires, etc. All the complaints made about the kelermorph, could be made about the eversor assassin, or the solitaire, who are both perfectly happy to make his points back by smacking an infantry unit or two around instead of assassinating a character.

And of course, everyone will scream and cry about that average unsaved 4.52 wounds from the kelermorph but a blood angels smash captain can deal 6.25 unsaved wounds to something with a 4++, before you bother with any relics, warlord traits, extra damage stratagems, whatever.

People made hay about the fact that the kelermorph could, if he spent 3CP, choose to attack twice, dealing craAaAaAaAzy damage, a thing that every single marine and pretty much every chaos marine unit can do on demand. An ability that's been in the game since the very first codex in 8th.

But it's OK if blood angel hammer man can cost 108 points and can charge in suicidally and spend 5Cp to fight 3 times, that's perfectly acceptable because he is a space man. The boundary for where people will start to cry "immersion breaking!" is 6" off the dirt for anything that's not a marine, and up in the stratosphere for anything that is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
Karol wrote:Like selling a car and its gas tank separate. Making an BA or SW player buy the SM and BA codex to get rules for their army, is something like that. And it is not just an update like in the case of waiting for a supplement that fixs your book for 2-3 years, as bad as it maybe.
Not really true. From what we have been told you can purchase Codex Space Marines and run BA, SW, or DA directly from the book. However, there are options for those factions that are not in the book. So CSM is functional for BA, DW, or DA.

So a better analogy is GW is selling you a car and then providing upgrades options like power windows, keyless entry, and super fancy stereo set. The basic car works just fine, but you may want to send some money on heated seats.

You know people try to say that, and my anwser to it is. Try playing the GK codex without the PA rule set. Can you legaly do it? yes. Does it give an army that works? no. It is exactly like a car without an engine. You can take a trip in one too, by pushing it all the way, but how many people are willing to do that.



Yep, agreed.

Say, why do you figure it took GW 2-3 years to fix what was clearly busted ass broken immediately at the time of release when it came to GK.

it couldnt possibly be...that GW routinely doesn't give a gak about its less popular factions and creates a self-fulfilling prophecy of those factions remaining unpopular by neglecting them for long periods of time.

Hmmm its weird in 5th it felt like GK were this hugely popular faction that everyone played, and then GW gave them gak rules and 0 model support for 3 editions in a row, now theyre scraping the bottom of the barrel.

it's almost like the inherent appeal of marines ISNT enough to make a faction more popular.

its almost like if GW didnt put out a single model for marines 2 editions in a row and kept them bottom tier in competitive play, next to nobody would be playing them come 11th ed.

it's wild how we have this example sitting right in front of our noses of the meteoric fall in popularity of the grey knights faction, a marine faction, since 5th edition yet people still pretend when it comes to tyranids the fact that nobody plays them has nothing to do with their not getting a model since 2014 and having horrible awful boring rules edition after edition is just because of some inherent unlikeability of the faction.




Literallg nobody defended Slamguinus, so basically you're just looking to be a victim.


Actually people did defend Slamguinus, because atleast initially, the rest of the dex BA was marines 1.0 bad.

Granted, it's also the asumption that a faction with 1 good option for comp can be considered "healthy".

That's not defending Slamguinus, that's just saying "you better fix the rest of the codex".


It is obvious (to me, at least) that it should be OK for a unit to exist within a largely suicidal framework.

I.e., it should be OK for me strategically to take a unit that I know is fairly easy for you to remove using equal to or less than the points I paid for him with units from your army, because I have a reasonable assurance that he will remove equal to or close to his points in a single turn of action. And that ideally, because I get to make the choice what, when, and where to remove, and you have no choice but to remove my model, I should be OK with "trading down" in terms of points efficiency of removal.

In concept, there is no significant difference between the performance of the kelermorph, the dagger Sanctus from the same codex, a callidus or eversor assassin, or a blood angel smash captain, except that of the lot of them the smash captain requires an investment in CP to reliably get to combat and do his damage and therefore has a higher average damage than any of them (even before he takes relics/traits, fights twice, etc etc.)

With a profile of W4 T3 Sv5++, the kelermorph is pretty trivial to remove for less than his points value. You can do it with a squad of guardsmen.

Any argument about whether any of them is fair should be based around how efficiently he does what he does, but that's not what the argument was about with the kelermorph. The argument was about why a model like the kelermorph should even be allowed to remove a basic T4 4++ hq in the first place. The nerfs people wanted wasn't the nerf from 65pts to 80pts, it was reducing his gun to D1 or removing the 'hits = extra shots' ability, basically making him only able to do his job if you somehow find a way to use him non-suicidally, or bring two of him somehow, or happen to be playing against one of the three to four factions whose characters would actually be killable by that profile.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






^And the reasoning was crazy. "How is it possible for a pistol to be that good!" when I can outfit Vanguard with dual Plasma Pistols that can fire at S8 D2. The Kellermorph nerfs are lame.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
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Tacoma, WA, USA

I don’t think it is unreasonable to wonder why the Krellermorph’s Autostub is better than a Boltpistol.
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






 alextroy wrote:
I don’t think it is unreasonable to wonder why the Krellermorph’s Autostub is better than a Boltpistol.
Easy, it fires faster.

Edit:
Or the bullets are really big, or travel really fast, or have some change in material or form that make them cause more damage on impact, or. . .

Considering the tremendous variety of "stubber" available in our own world, there's plainly a wide, wide number of variables you can apply to both weapon and ammunition.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/24 20:01:21


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






 alextroy wrote:
Karol wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
Karol wrote:Like selling a car and its gas tank separate. Making an BA or SW player buy the SM and BA codex to get rules for their army, is something like that. And it is not just an update like in the case of waiting for a supplement that fixs your book for 2-3 years, as bad as it maybe.
Not really true. From what we have been told you can purchase Codex Space Marines and run BA, SW, or DA directly from the book. However, there are options for those factions that are not in the book. So CSM is functional for BA, DW, or DA.

So a better analogy is GW is selling you a car and then providing upgrades options like power windows, keyless entry, and super fancy stereo set. The basic car works just fine, but you may want to send some money on heated seats.

You know people try to say that, and my anwser to it is. Try playing the GK codex without the PA rule set. Can you legaly do it? yes. Does it give an army that works? no. It is exactly like a car without an engine. You can take a trip in one too, by pushing it all the way, but how many people are willing to do that.
Erik Lathouroas won Briscon in 2019 with pure Grey Knights, so I’d say the army is not fully unplayable without PA. It’s definitely better with it and needs the boost, especially after CSM 2, but it was playable years after publishing despite your complaints to the opposite.
It was actaully quite good until the Deep strike nerf. Then it became garbage.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 alextroy wrote:
Karol wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
Karol wrote:Like selling a car and its gas tank separate. Making an BA or SW player buy the SM and BA codex to get rules for their army, is something like that. And it is not just an update like in the case of waiting for a supplement that fixs your book for 2-3 years, as bad as it maybe.
Not really true. From what we have been told you can purchase Codex Space Marines and run BA, SW, or DA directly from the book. However, there are options for those factions that are not in the book. So CSM is functional for BA, DW, or DA.

So a better analogy is GW is selling you a car and then providing upgrades options like power windows, keyless entry, and super fancy stereo set. The basic car works just fine, but you may want to send some money on heated seats.

You know people try to say that, and my anwser to it is. Try playing the GK codex without the PA rule set. Can you legaly do it? yes. Does it give an army that works? no. It is exactly like a car without an engine. You can take a trip in one too, by pushing it all the way, but how many people are willing to do that.
Erik Lathouroas won Briscon in 2019 with pure Grey Knights, so I’d say the army is not fully unplayable without PA. It’s definitely better with it and needs the boost, especially after CSM 2, but it was playable years after publishing despite your complaints to the opposite.

If it isn't consistent toppings you don't prove a point.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 alextroy wrote:
I don’t think it is unreasonable to wonder why the Krellermorph’s Autostub is better than a Boltpistol.


Ammunition choice. Or is your point that non-Astartes should always lose to Astartes? To be frank complaints that your character can get assassinated by a human/alien hybrid who's basically designed from the genetic level to do that come off as childish and entitled.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
Karol wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
Karol wrote:Like selling a car and its gas tank separate. Making an BA or SW player buy the SM and BA codex to get rules for their army, is something like that. And it is not just an update like in the case of waiting for a supplement that fixs your book for 2-3 years, as bad as it maybe.
Not really true. From what we have been told you can purchase Codex Space Marines and run BA, SW, or DA directly from the book. However, there are options for those factions that are not in the book. So CSM is functional for BA, DW, or DA.

So a better analogy is GW is selling you a car and then providing upgrades options like power windows, keyless entry, and super fancy stereo set. The basic car works just fine, but you may want to send some money on heated seats.

You know people try to say that, and my anwser to it is. Try playing the GK codex without the PA rule set. Can you legaly do it? yes. Does it give an army that works? no. It is exactly like a car without an engine. You can take a trip in one too, by pushing it all the way, but how many people are willing to do that.
Erik Lathouroas won Briscon in 2019 with pure Grey Knights, so I’d say the army is not fully unplayable without PA. It’s definitely better with it and needs the boost, especially after CSM 2, but it was playable years after publishing despite your complaints to the opposite.

If it isn't consistent toppings you don't prove a point.


It negates the assertion that the army didn't work, though, by providing an example that went the 5 rounds. (Faction chosen for the guy by his community, no less...)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/24 23:52:25


 
   
Made in us
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Tacoma, WA, USA

Hecaton wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
I don’t think it is unreasonable to wonder why the Krellermorph’s Autostub is better than a Boltpistol.


Ammunition choice. Or is your point that non-Astartes should always lose to Astartes? To be frank complaints that your character can get assassinated by a human/alien hybrid who's basically designed from the genetic level to do that come off as childish and entitled.
Let's just put it this way:

Autopistol - Pistol 1, S3 AP 0
Autogun - Rapid Fire 1, S3 AP 0
Heavy Stubber - Heavy 3, S4 AP 0
Liberator Autostub - Pistol 2, S4 AP -1?

And the Kellermorph has 3 of them, so really it's Pistol 6, S4 AP -1! I think people can justifiable say WTF
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






 alextroy wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
I don’t think it is unreasonable to wonder why the Krellermorph’s Autostub is better than a Boltpistol.


Ammunition choice. Or is your point that non-Astartes should always lose to Astartes? To be frank complaints that your character can get assassinated by a human/alien hybrid who's basically designed from the genetic level to do that come off as childish and entitled.
Let's just put it this way:

Autopistol - Pistol 1, S3 AP 0
Autogun - Rapid Fire 1, S3 AP 0
Heavy Stubber - Heavy 3, S4 AP 0
Liberator Autostub - Pistol 2, S4 AP -1?

And the Kellermorph has 3 of them, so really it's Pistol 6, S4 AP -1! I think people can justifiable say WTF
And 2 plasma pistols is 2x S8 D2 -3, and a third arm would get you a 3rd shot.

Theres a mechanicus 5 shot pistol, iirc.

It's fine.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







 alextroy wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
I don’t think it is unreasonable to wonder why the Krellermorph’s Autostub is better than a Boltpistol.


Ammunition choice. Or is your point that non-Astartes should always lose to Astartes? To be frank complaints that your character can get assassinated by a human/alien hybrid who's basically designed from the genetic level to do that come off as childish and entitled.
Let's just put it this way:

Autopistol - Pistol 1, S3 AP 0
Autogun - Rapid Fire 1, S3 AP 0
Heavy Stubber - Heavy 3, S4 AP 0
Liberator Autostub - Pistol 2, S4 AP -1?

And the Kellermorph has 3 of them, so really it's Pistol 6, S4 AP -1! I think people can justifiable say WTF


Stubcarbine: Pistol 3, S4, AP0.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




 AnomanderRake wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
I don’t think it is unreasonable to wonder why the Krellermorph’s Autostub is better than a Boltpistol.


Ammunition choice. Or is your point that non-Astartes should always lose to Astartes? To be frank complaints that your character can get assassinated by a human/alien hybrid who's basically designed from the genetic level to do that come off as childish and entitled.
Let's just put it this way:

Autopistol - Pistol 1, S3 AP 0
Autogun - Rapid Fire 1, S3 AP 0
Heavy Stubber - Heavy 3, S4 AP 0
Liberator Autostub - Pistol 2, S4 AP -1?

And the Kellermorph has 3 of them, so really it's Pistol 6, S4 AP -1! I think people can justifiable say WTF


Stubcarbine: Pistol 3, S4, AP0.

Which apparently doesn't fire much faster even though that's implied.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





 Insectum7 wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
I don’t think it is unreasonable to wonder why the Krellermorph’s Autostub is better than a Boltpistol.


Ammunition choice. Or is your point that non-Astartes should always lose to Astartes? To be frank complaints that your character can get assassinated by a human/alien hybrid who's basically designed from the genetic level to do that come off as childish and entitled.
Let's just put it this way:

Autopistol - Pistol 1, S3 AP 0
Autogun - Rapid Fire 1, S3 AP 0
Heavy Stubber - Heavy 3, S4 AP 0
Liberator Autostub - Pistol 2, S4 AP -1?

And the Kellermorph has 3 of them, so really it's Pistol 6, S4 AP -1! I think people can justifiable say WTF
And 2 plasma pistols is 2x S8 D2 -3, and a third arm would get you a 3rd shot.

Theres a mechanicus 5 shot pistol, iirc.

It's fine.


honestly from a thematic POV when you're comparing what the GSCs have to the Space Marines and the Admech I do kinda have to raise an eyebrow.

I mean these are supposed to be rebels and the like. commoners. yet they're outfitted with weapons that would be a space marine relic?!

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
I don’t think it is unreasonable to wonder why the Krellermorph’s Autostub is better than a Boltpistol.


Ammunition choice. Or is your point that non-Astartes should always lose to Astartes? To be frank complaints that your character can get assassinated by a human/alien hybrid who's basically designed from the genetic level to do that come off as childish and entitled.
Let's just put it this way:

Autopistol - Pistol 1, S3 AP 0
Autogun - Rapid Fire 1, S3 AP 0
Heavy Stubber - Heavy 3, S4 AP 0
Liberator Autostub - Pistol 2, S4 AP -1?

And the Kellermorph has 3 of them, so really it's Pistol 6, S4 AP -1! I think people can justifiable say WTF


Stubcarbine: Pistol 3, S4, AP0.

Which apparently doesn't fire much faster even though that's implied.

A carbine is not necessarily fully automatic. Whereas the name autostub would definitely imply a weapon capable of fully automatic fire.

The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in us
Dominating Dominatrix






No. GSC infiltrate every level of a society. They could be a planets leaders. Their highest ranking military commanders. Anyone with access to anything.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





BrianDavion wrote:

I mean these are supposed to be rebels and the like. commoners. yet they're outfitted with weapons that would be a space marine relic?!


Its a big universe. And it isn't that he has one super strong marine type pistol. He's a freak with a bunch of arms and a bunch of pistols. If a marine has multiple plasma guns it might appear shocking, but the technology isn't obscene.

   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






BrianDavion wrote:
Spoiler:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
Hecaton wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
I don’t think it is unreasonable to wonder why the Krellermorph’s Autostub is better than a Boltpistol.


Ammunition choice. Or is your point that non-Astartes should always lose to Astartes? To be frank complaints that your character can get assassinated by a human/alien hybrid who's basically designed from the genetic level to do that come off as childish and entitled.
Let's just put it this way:

Autopistol - Pistol 1, S3 AP 0
Autogun - Rapid Fire 1, S3 AP 0
Heavy Stubber - Heavy 3, S4 AP 0
Liberator Autostub - Pistol 2, S4 AP -1?

And the Kellermorph has 3 of them, so really it's Pistol 6, S4 AP -1! I think people can justifiable say WTF
And 2 plasma pistols is 2x S8 D2 -3, and a third arm would get you a 3rd shot.

Theres a mechanicus 5 shot pistol, iirc.

It's fine.


honestly from a thematic POV when you're comparing what the GSCs have to the Space Marines and the Admech I do kinda have to raise an eyebrow.

I mean these are supposed to be rebels and the like. commoners. yet they're outfitted with weapons that would be a space marine relic?!
Reminder: lowly Hive Gangers can get plasma weapons.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor




Tacoma, WA, USA

 alextroy wrote:
Spoiler:
Hecaton wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
I don’t think it is unreasonable to wonder why the Krellermorph’s Autostub is better than a Boltpistol.


Ammunition choice. Or is your point that non-Astartes should always lose to Astartes? To be frank complaints that your character can get assassinated by a human/alien hybrid who's basically designed from the genetic level to do that come off as childish and entitled.
Let's just put it this way:

Autopistol - Pistol 1, S3 AP 0
Autogun - Rapid Fire 1, S3 AP 0
Heavy Stubber - Heavy 3, S4 AP 0
Liberator Autostub - Pistol 2, S4 AP -1?

And the Kellermorph has 3 of them, so really it's Pistol 6, S4 AP -1! I think people can justifiable say WTF
I just realized I forgot the most important part:

Autopistol - Pistol 1, S3 AP 0 D1
Autogun - Rapid Fire 1, S3 AP 0 D1
Stubcarbine - Pistol 3, S4 AP 0 D1
Heavy Stubber - Heavy 3, S4 AP 0 D1
Ironhail Heavy Stubber - Heavy 3, S4 AP -1 D1
Liberator Autostub - Pistol 2 (6 for 3), S4 AP -1 D2

What the hell does the Kellermorph fire from that gun?

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Bolter cartridges infused with the tears of Imperium players, apparently.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 alextroy wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
Spoiler:
Hecaton wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
I don’t think it is unreasonable to wonder why the Krellermorph’s Autostub is better than a Boltpistol.


Ammunition choice. Or is your point that non-Astartes should always lose to Astartes? To be frank complaints that your character can get assassinated by a human/alien hybrid who's basically designed from the genetic level to do that come off as childish and entitled.
Let's just put it this way:

Autopistol - Pistol 1, S3 AP 0
Autogun - Rapid Fire 1, S3 AP 0
Heavy Stubber - Heavy 3, S4 AP 0
Liberator Autostub - Pistol 2, S4 AP -1?

And the Kellermorph has 3 of them, so really it's Pistol 6, S4 AP -1! I think people can justifiable say WTF
I just realized I forgot the most important part:

Autopistol - Pistol 1, S3 AP 0 D1
Autogun - Rapid Fire 1, S3 AP 0 D1
Stubcarbine - Pistol 3, S4 AP 0 D1
Heavy Stubber - Heavy 3, S4 AP 0 D1
Ironhail Heavy Stubber - Heavy 3, S4 AP -1 D1
Liberator Autostub - Pistol 2 (6 for 3), S4 AP -1 D2

What the hell does the Kellermorph fire from that gun?



Explosive rounds of some sort. One of the guys from the Rogue Trader box has a gun that's essentially the same thing but Heavy 4.
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor




Tacoma, WA, USA

Rotor Cannon (Heavy 4 S4 AP -1 D2) is a whole lot more of a weapon than a sub machine pistol.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 alextroy wrote:
Rotor Cannon (Heavy 4 S4 AP -1 D2) is a whole lot more of a weapon than a sub machine pistol.


It fires the same caliber of rounds, apparently. It's just much more rapid firing, and presumably the barrel isn't rifled. The point is that that kind of equipment isn't unheard of; it's rare, sure, but that's why the Kelermorph is a hero unit.

Also the "Liberator Autostub" doesn't fire fully automatic, presumably.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/25 05:40:44


 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran





That's a crappy comparison between auto weapons.

Have you seen how many BOLT weapons there are the ridiculously absurd number of different profiles they have?

Heavy bolt rifles
auto bolt rifles
heavy bolt pistols
that executor one or whatever it's called
occulus
sniper
blah blah bolter


etc etc


If marines can have 50+ bolt variants then it's beyond trivial for ONE bloody model to get a gun that's SLIGHTLY better than other variants of the gun.

No one's been screaming the world down because there are now more bolter variants than units types in xenos armies, but one xenos army gets a single weapon that's slightly better than a normal one and oh no we can't have that.

The entitlement is gross.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/25 05:39:10


 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





Honestly, i think the kellermorph, shouldn't have been a gunslinger but a saboteur.
High explosives, and a Stub carbine. Heck even a special one if need be.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/25 06:19:22


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 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
 
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