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I took a Deathwing list out for a fight on Saturday to help someone prepare for an upcoming themed 1500 point tourney - you need to have a named character as your warlord with no Lords of War or Titantic units allowed. They had Sisters with a mix of normal squads, Retributors, Paragons, some ladies with shields and halberds and three vehicles. I went with Belial, a Deathwing Apothecary, Deathwing Ancient with Banner of Repentance; two full Deathwing Squads, a two-man Deathwing Command Squad and a five-man Deathing Knights Squad. We played a hold 2 hold 3 hold more mission which meant I combat-squaded my full squads.

Armour of Contempt had a big impact for both of us, but it certainly made the Terminators more durable! The normal Terminators without Storm Shields were rarely saving on worse than a 4+ and they stood up to lots of -1 AP fire that would have normally chipped wounds off them. The DW Knights were still great due to how well they hit, but their 4++ was useful against the Multi-Meltas.

Chainfists for me have gone from niche to really good if you are facing power armour. I found that Tactical Doctrine was more or less pointless, but getting into Assault Doctrine was very useful.

Given AoC, the ponts drop, and the increased need for MW, are Dark Talons competitive now or still overpriced/too fragile

Vulshra wrote:
Given AoC, the ponts drop, and the increased need for MW, are Dark Talons competitive now or still overpriced/too fragile

I mean, they are better than they were for sure. They're still a bit pricy though.

In other news, I saw a cool Dark Angels list featured in today's Goonhammer Competitive Innovations article. What seemed so cool about the list is that it was pure Ravenwing rather than Deathwing. 2 Outriders, with a Talonmaster and Sammael leading them. Lots of Land Speeder types (3 Vengeances, 2 Storm Speeder Hammerstrikes, and one regular one with a MM), plus 3x3 MM Attack Bikes and 3x3 regular Bike units. And the basically-mandatory RW Apothecary. I absolutely LOVE this list; instead of the grindy defensive playstyle of a Deathwing list, it's more of an offensive powerhouse with lots of high-damage shooting.

I'm very happy to see that style of play do well as it's very similar to how I build. A bit more melee and bikers and fewer speeders but I'm taking another look at land speeder vengeances

As an aside, from a lore perspective, is the crew count on a vengeance 3 or 4?

Some hot takes from the War Zone Nephilim reviews.

The changes to starting CPs will certainly have an effect. It was fairly common to take a Deathwing Vanguard Detachment and either a Ravenwing Outrider or a Dark Angels Patrol to have some balance. This will now be a big decision to make with half the CP available. This combines with the changes to Warlord Trait/Relic acquisition. I often spent five points on extra Detachments and additional Warlord Traits and Relics. This will be much tougher now. Looking at a list I took to a competitive event in February, I would start with 2 CP and thats only because of Azrael.

I have found that Deathwing can get by without many CPs, but that Ravenwing and Greenwing really need them. Azrael, always a good take, is even better now!

The changes to Secondaries is really big. To the Last was a common pick for Deathwing - its gone. Stubborn Defiance is still there but the objective cannot be in your deployment zone and you score points based on the round for each consecutive turn. Its not impossible for Obsec Deathwing to grab and hold a mid-field objective, but this is certainy tougher than before. I think it would be very hard for any non-Deathwing unit to pull it off. Oaths of Moment is still there and you can now take it with Stubborn Defiance again, but its tougher due to changes on holding the centre (only 1 VP and must be Core or Character). Death on the Wind is unchanged! Huzzah. Engage on All Fronts allows for units less than 3 to score as long as they started the game with 3 models. I think this places Ravenwing Bikes in a good place.

I think the changes to Secondaries will hurt some Deathwing builds that were based on To the Last and Stubborn Defiance. Ravenwing, though, look good and its not like Deathwing are nerfed too hard with this.

I've been leaning hard into Deathwing for the last season, and while I am not going to abandon them I will go back to my Ravenwing for a while.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
Some hot takes from the War Zone Nephilim reviews.

The changes to starting CPs will certainly have an effect. It was fairly common to take a Deathwing Vanguard Detachment and either a Ravenwing Outrider or a Dark Angels Patrol to have some balance. This will now be a big decision to make with half the CP available. This combines with the changes to Warlord Trait/Relic acquisition. I often spent five points on extra Detachments and additional Warlord Traits and Relics. This will be much tougher now. Looking at a list I took to a competitive event in February, I would start with 2 CP and thats only because of Azrael.

I have found that Deathwing can get by without many CPs, but that Ravenwing and Greenwing really need them. Azrael, always a good take, is even better now!

The changes to Secondaries is really big. To the Last was a common pick for Deathwing - its gone. Stubborn Defiance is still there but the objective cannot be in your deployment zone and you score points based on the round for each consecutive turn. Its not impossible for Obsec Deathwing to grab and hold a mid-field objective, but this is certainy tougher than before. I think it would be very hard for any non-Deathwing unit to pull it off. Oaths of Moment is still there and you can now take it with Stubborn Defiance again, but its tougher due to changes on holding the centre (only 1 VP and must be Core or Character). Death on the Wind is unchanged! Huzzah. Engage on All Fronts allows for units less than 3 to score as long as they started the game with 3 models. I think this places Ravenwing Bikes in a good place.

I think the changes to Secondaries will hurt some Deathwing builds that were based on To the Last and Stubborn Defiance. Ravenwing, though, look good and its not like Deathwing are nerfed too hard with this.

I've been leaning hard into Deathwing for the last season, and while I am not going to abandon them I will go back to my Ravenwing for a while.

Changes to CP hurts, but the ability to take multiple faction-specific secondaries really helps RW. Death on the Wind, Engage, and Codex Warfare or Martial Interdiction makes getting 40-45 pts very doable most games.

Azreal can't help RW much, given he's infantry, but is even better for Greanwing now

Regarding Codex Warfare, is it possible to score 2pts by using Tactical Appraisal on a unit during second turn and later?

RAW it looks legal

Timur wrote:
Regarding Codex Warfare, is it possible to score 2pts by using Tactical Appraisal on a unit during second turn and later?

RAW it looks legal

I don't think so given it says "for your army" and it's still not active for the army, but if so it makes brilliant strategist an even better WLT

As an aside, having to pay for the first WLT and relic is a pain. I'm revisiting my list a little to cut back on a relic. I used to run both a master with 2 WLTs, champion and fury, and the heavenfall to be a beatstick backed up by a champion with the reliquary but I'm seriously reconsidering the reliquary. I still want the champion for martial interdiction sometimes. Combined with hidden agenda, i think it's a potent combo

With the new nephilim changes, RW BKs are even better now, and with force org slots being more limited, they seem very good for most competitive RW lists.

On the DW side, Death wing knights getting 5ppm cheeper is a good buff

Here's all the points changes, both DA-specific and Marines in general:
HQ:
Azrael: 160 (-10)
Ezekiel: 115 (-10)
Captain in Gravis Armor: 115 (-5)
Troops:
No Changes Whatsoever
Elites:
Reivers: No change to base model cost, grav chutes/grapnel launchers now 1 ppm (-1 ppm)
Deathwing Knights: 43 ppm (-4 ppm)
Ravenwing Black Knights: No change to base model cost, Corvus Hammers now free (-5 ppm)
Fast Attack:
Assault Squad: No change to base model cost, jump packs now free (-2 ppm)
Land Speeder Tornadoes: 70 ppm (-5 ppm)
Land Speeder Typhoons: 100 ppm (-10 ppm)
Outrider Squad: 45 ppm (-5 ppm)
Ravenwing Darkshroud: 120 (-10)
Ravenwing Land Speeder Vengeance: 110 (-10)
Heavy Support:
Centurion Devastator Squad: No change to base model cost, grav cannons now 10 ppm (-5 ppm), Heavy Bolters now 10 each (-5 ppw, -10 ppm), Lascannons now 15 each (-5 ppw, -10 ppm)
Eliminator Squad: No change to base model cost, Las Fusils now free (-5 ppm, same as BSR)
Firestrike Servo Turrets: 80 ppm (-10 ppm), Twin Las Talons now 30 ppm (-10 ppm)
Gladiator Lancer: 150 (-15)
Gladiator Reaper: 180 (-15)
Gladiator Valiant: 200 (-15)
Land Raider: 245 (-20)
Land Raider Crusader: 245 (-20)
Land Raider Redeemer: 245 (-20)
Predator Annihilator: 115 (-15)
Predator Destructor: 130 (-10)
Repulsor: 270 (-25)
Repulsor Executioner: 300 (-35)
Vindicator: 120 (-10)
Dedicated Transport:
Land Speeder Storm: 50 (-5)
Razorback: 100 (-10), Twin Assault Cannon 25 (+10)
Flyer:
Stormraven Gunship: 260 (-30)

My hot takes:
-Ravenwing did pretty well overall. Black Knights are pretty spicy at 35 ppm; the hammers should have been free from the beginning, and especially so now that AoC is a thing. Speeders of all types got a nice reduction (Storm Speeders were already doing okay in some builds and didn't need another drop, so it's okay that they didn't get one this time), and Outriders are at least playable at 135 per squad. Pity ATVs didn't get a drop; here's hoping they get CORE in the Balance Dataslate tomorrow (not holding my breath).
-GW seems to want us to take more tanks (not just us, all Marines). Problem is, even with points drops there are almost always better options. Land Raiders with AoC and the newly reduced costs are at least making me raise an eyebrow though.
-The flyers needed more reductions; the Nephilim and Dark Talon are nearly there, but still don't quite cut it (and now that they don't count for Engage they actually got an indirect nerf). The Stormraven is still trash even with the big reduction.
-Azrael might be a must-take in DA lists unless you are going Ravenwing; he gives CP just for showing up, and he actually got cheaper somehow. Ezekiel getting a cut as well was nice. Pity the other characters missed out; Asmodai just can't catch a break!
-AssCan Razorbacks are still paying for their perceived sins in early 8th edition. At least the HB and Twin Las versions got a little cheaper.
-Assault Marines having free jump packs is nice; other Marine chapters will get more out of them than DA will though.

Took an all Ravenwing list for a 2000 point game against Necrons. He had the Silent King and the Void Dragon so this was going to be tough sledding! The changes to CP really changed how I constructed my list and how it played. I cut back on some relics that I took before (the Reliquary and the Auspex) and I always found RW to be CP-hogs. Death on the Wind is still good, but the game was a bit of a disaster! Its not panic stations yet, but things have changed.

Reading the details of the new Secondaries, Deathwing-based lists do have to make some serious adjustments. With Stubborn Defiance requiring you to select an Objective outside your deployment zone it is basically impossible to score more than 10 VPs with a Deathwing list. Deathwing lists were riding on maxing out Stubborn Defiance and Too the Last. Well, not anymore!

I'll try a Greenwing list next time.

A Dark Angels list took the win in a tournament in Colombia last weekend:

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-global-spectacular-pt-2/

Basically kind of an MSU version of the ever-popular Deathwing terminator spam build, with Belial instead of Azrael (interesting choice there). Nice to see that DA can still win events, at any rate.

This week, two Dark Angels lists made top 5 finishes, both of them Ravenwing lists, and one of them won their event! Here's the Goonhammer link:

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-nova-reanimation/

Basically both of the covered Ravenwing lists use Sammael, a Talonmaster, plus at least one full brick of Black Knights and 3 Storm Speeder Thunderstrikes. Looks like the Thunderstrikes are the real deal, folks! I've been a fan of them for a while despite not having run one yet (which has more to do with the fact that I've been playing my other armies for the last couple of years). Nice to see the boys in black putting up good finishes instead of just more Deathwing spam.

Its been a rough season for the Dark Angels...Let's see if the new Balance Dataslate and warzone season will change things.

The changes to Doctrines will certainly help Ravenwing. We can stay in Devastator for the whole game if we want, which is a big boost for the Ravenwing. This could also help with some Secondaries.

Ravenwing units got price cuts. My last 2000 point Ravenwing list is now sitting just above 1700 points. Some highlights:

Outriders are now 35 points each
Ravenwing Bikes basically get wargear for free (a multimelta attack bike in the squad will be +10 points, all others are free)
Ravenwing Black Knights are now 30 points each
Attack Bikes with Multimeltas are 50 points each

Losing Armour of Contempt will hurt most units, but at the same time many of our targets also benefited from it.

Deathwing now seem to have free wargear, so they have also come down depending how you used to load them out. Removal of AoC means that Stormshields are back in business! Now everyone who ripped theirs off can put them back on again.

We will need to see some games in the new season with the new detachment to see how this will all play out. I am optimisitic (ish)...

Deathwing with free CMLs? Yes please! I fully expect to see some lists with 50+ Terminators in them (330 points for 10, 5 such units is 1650 points so room for characters on top). Now that AoC is gone it could be worth it to stay in Tactical doctrine in some games for the AP-1 on the storm bolters. Ravenwing gonna be LIT with all the cheaper bikes out there. 20 Black Knight lists will almost certainly be a thing. And Greenwing certainly isn't being left out, no sirree! Plasma Inceptors are now 40 ppm, which is crazy good! Hellblasters are still expensive, just less so than they were before, so Inceptors are gonna get the nod there I think. Devastators get free weapons that aren't Multi-Meltas (and those are cheaper now), so maybe those could be okay as well, and Eradicators can and should take any upgrades they can because again, they're free. Even the special characters like Azrael got cheaper (how?!). Dark Angels are gonna really be able to swing for the fences now, in spite of losing Armor of Contempt, and there will probably be multiple viable builds, so it's a good day to be a Son of the Lion!

Free watchers of the dark for every termi squad ? yikes !

Nasty list idea I just came up with for the new season:

Mostly theorycrafting as I don't have anywhere near that many Black Knights, but it seems strong to me. I do wonder if it would be worth taking the redeploy trait instead of Rites of War, but I figured being able to make the Black Knights Obsec would be very useful. I also considered an iteration of this that used a Primaris Bike Chaplain, but ultimately switched to the Champion to save a few points.

Two Dark Angels lists played each other for the win at the Beachhead Brawl this past weekend, here's the Goonhammer Competitive Innovations article that has that game as one of the featured matchups:

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-darkest-timeline-pt-1/

One of the lists is much more Ravenwing focused, with only a single Deathwing brick to provide some durable bodies on an objective, plus some Infiltrators to possibly open up Stubborn Defiance as an option. The other list (Mani Cheema's) goes harder on Deathwing and takes Speeder Tornadoes and Vengeances for speedy threats (plus two Talonmasters). Mani's version was the winner in this particular mirror match.

Based on this and other recent articles, it seems like a mix of Deathwing and Ravenwing, with occasional Infiltrators as tech pieces, is the way to play DA in Arks. I'm looking forward to giving a list like these a try one of these days.

I am in a small League right now (a branch of the Ontario one) playing Dark Angels. We've done one round, and my list two weeks ago was Azrael, Talonmaster, full Deathwing squad, Ravenwing Apothecary, full Infiltrator squad, full Attack Bike squad with multi-meltas, an MSU Tactical squad, a small Bike Squad, ten Hellblasters with Heavy Incinerators, three Eradicators and Devastators with Lascannons.

I took the Infiltrators to have the option of maxing out Stubborn Defiance and took the heavy support to lean into Codex Warfare. The Deathwing were there for Oath of Moment and control the centre. I faced Astra Militarum with plenty of tanks including a Baneblade but no Karskin. The design of the list worked, although Lascannons are still bad...As an aside, Baneblades are actually OK now if not optimal. T9 is no joke and they have some tricks to reduce damage. Anyhoo.

The Talonmaster was great. Armour of Contempt really hurt his firepower before, but being able to stay in Devastator Doctrine and no AoC makes it much better. Also allows for some Codex Warfare points when facing hordes of infantry squads. I am taking two in my next list. I had left the Stormshields on my Deathwing during the AoC time and I am glad that I did so.

Dark Angels have indeed benefited mightily from Arks of Omen. I am sticking with mixed-wing for now, but I'll try out all Ravenwing or all Deathwing in a bit.

Finally got a game in with my Dark Angels for the first time in over 2 years. And yes, it seems all the talk about them being strong is justified. I managed to win vs. my friend (who is a pretty good player) and his Grey Knights. My Black Knights didn't do a whole lot, mostly because I misplayed them and was too cagey with them early on, but my 2 Talonmasters absolutely put in work, and so did my single (combat-squadded) Deathwing unit. The sheer speed of Ravenwing units makes them crazy powerful and difficult for your opponent to hide from, and I was able to use that to my advantage. I even got to launch Sammael like a cruise missile, where he shot down one character and then charged and killed a second. A GMNDK put him down for his insolence, but that was still a fun play that swung the game in my favor. My Infiltrators felt good just camping a side objective; my opponent couldn't deep strike close to them to take the objective away from them, and he couldn't walk over and kill them without exposing his units to my Ravenwing's counterattack potential. They are a clutch unit that would really be good to have for the Daemons and GSC matchups, but honestly anyone who relies on reserves is going to be frustrated by them.

I just played my Dark Angels in a GT this weekend, and was one of 3 DA players in said event (there would have been 4, but one guy dropped). It was my first Arks of Omen tournament, and it was player placed terrain. My list was the following:

Very quick rundown of my 5 games:

Game 1
Opponent: Space Marines (Iron Hands)
Two mainly shooting armies facing off; no matter what it promised to be a bloodbath. I couldn't hide everything perfectly well and ended up losing the entire unit of Black Knights to my opponent's shooting on turn 1 (he got first turn). I still had enough to counterattack very hard, but my counterattack just utterly fizzled. My opponent was also in awe of just how terrible my dice were. In desperation to kill SOMETHING by the end of turn 1, I charged my melee-specced Talonmaster into an opposing Land Speeder Tornado, which overwatched with the Iron Hands special strat and brought the TM to 1 wound. The TM spiked it of course, but it exploded and took the TM with it. It all went downhill from there and I lost with a final score of like 42 to 90-something. Probably one of the most frustrating games of 40k I've ever played; even my opponent said he's never seen worse dice luck in a game.

Game 2
Opponent: Death Guard (Ferrymen)
Despite going second (which I wanted) and my opponent moving towards me, I just couldn't kill enough stuff fast enough, and probably wasn't aggressive enough to pull it out, although I did almost catch up in points. I let myself get bottled up in my own deployment zone for two turns, which hurt my chances. It ended up being close, with me getting 67 points to my opponent's 75.

Game 3:
Opponent: Space Marines (Iron Hands)
My opponent was a fairly new player who was running a not-terribly-optimized IH list with 2 Redemptors and 2 Leviathan dreads in it, as well as 2 Whirlwinds. He placed his terrain fairly poorly and deployed too much of his stuff in the open, which allowed me to get easy shots on a lot of it. He still made a game of it for the first couple of turns, but it snowballed massively in my favor after that, and the final score of 97-33 shows it. I gave the guy a few good pointers about how to leverage player-placed terrain better for his next games, but I think he still came in dead last (of the players who stuck it out for all 5 rounds) at the end of the event.

Game 4:
Opponent: Astra Militarum (Born Soldiers)
My opponent was running a tank-heavy list with 4 Russes, a Russ TC, a Rogal Dorn, 3 Kasrkin units, and 3 Mortar squads (plus some other stuff). I ended up getting first turn, and absolutely pulverized his TC with my Attack Bikes. It exploded and damaged all of his plasma Russes. My various speeders' shooting took out one of said plasma Russes, and it also exploded, dealing damage to one of the other two. My Black Knights took out another one of those (that one didn't blow up). My opponent wasn't really able to get back in the game, as all of my Ravenwing stuff had advanced and thus had a 4++ against shooting, and the rest of the game was mostly me grinding him down (on turn 4, my big Terminator brick took down the Dorn and that's where my opponent just conceded). The final score was like 97-40 or something like that.

Game 5:
Opponent: Leagues of Votann (Greater Thurian League)
I ended up playing the ringer for this one; my assigned opponent had already faced both of the other two DA players and just conceded before we even set up (he was running Blood Angels, and he wasn't salty or a poor sport or anything, he just really didn't fancy playing against Dark Angels for a third time in one event). This game ended up being an extremely close game that saw me get the win by a single point (82-81), and I would have lost if my opponent had remembered more of his rules. I should have been more conservative at the beginning and made him come to me instead of spreading out early on.

So I went 3-2 for the weekend, which is actually pretty good for me (I have a long history of going either 2-3 or 2-2-1 at GTs). I really need to practice more, as I made some silly mistakes that could be eliminated if I'd just tighten up my game. I do have a few takeaways about my list and DA in general:
-Talonmasters are amazing and probably one of the best units in the game, but don't bother tooling one up for melee. Imperium's Sword and the Heavenfall Blade just didn't pay off at all for the whole event. Take 2 of them and just use them for shooting/reroll support/traits.
-Sammael is a great support piece. His rerolls were very clutch, especially when he'd give one unit full rerolls and then fly over and give a different unit reroll 1's with his aura. His melee capability is nice and can snipe out an exposed character, but only do this near the end of a game when you won't need his rerolls as much.
-Storm Speeder Thunderstrikes are amazing. I only had one and wish I'd had a second; the long-range firepower that hits on 2's is very nice, especially if facing T8+ targets.
-In a few games, I combat-squadded the big Terminator brick, reserved the shooty ones (keeping the hammers on the board) and used Deathwing Assault on the shooty half when they dropped from reserves. It's a neat trick, but definitely not something you'll need to do most of the time. Keeping the whole big squad together worked better for me. I do think it could be worth keeping a few guns on Terminators rather than going all-hammers for certain matchups though.
-My Black Knights absolutely were my workhorse unit in every game other than the first. Those guys put in WORK! I highly recommend at least a single unit. Against some opponents it could even be worth pregame moving them forwards with the strat (if you get first turn) to give them a much better threat range, although I never did this.
-Being able to Advance and still shoot is a clutch ability that should never be underestimated. Sure you take a -1 penalty to your shooting, but Sammael can offset that with his rerolls on one unit, and if your opponent is in dense cover or otherwise has a -1 penalty already you don't lose anything. That 4++ against shooting will save your valuable models too.

GW just dropped the full datasheet for Lion El'Jonson today:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/10/put-the-forces-of-chaos-to-the-sword-with-free-rules-for-lion-eljonson/
The TL;DR of it pretty much is that he's a crazy blender that will turn most things he touches into fine pink mist, but if he runs into something he can't easily shift (which funnily enough includes Deathwing in the mirror match), he will likely get punted into the sun as he's relying on a 4++ and 9 wounds to protect him.

Personally my idea is to run him as more of a buff-bot/area denial tool; he doesn't want to be on the front lines as any decent shooting will drop him like a sack of wheat. Play him behind some Terminators, preferably with a couple of Talonmasters in tow (they benefit from his awesome reroll aura as it affects Characters in addition to Core!), and be ready to leverage his unique warlord trait to heroic intervene with some Deathwing. His own combat potential will deter any but the most determined opposition. Deep striking him is definitely a trap; a 9 inch charge even with rerolls is only successful like 42% or so of the time. Maybe if you bring along a Chaplain to give the buff to charge distance it becomes a bit more reliable, but that's even more points. I definitely think Lion is something we can build around, but he's most definitely not a blunt instrument we can just send up the middle and win games with.

What are other people's thoughts about running our newly-arrived Primarch?

He needs support, both screening and other characters. Deepstriking with a chaplain to get the canticle of hate speed boost makes the rerollable charge quite reliable, deathwing bodyguard to make up for his squishyness, and a librarian to mind worm the biggest combat threat to him (fights last > fights first).

I'd consider going all out and taking too much support, to make killing the Primarch a distraction while the supporters win the game. Something like this:

Johnson
Phobos librarian (mind worm, righteous repugnance)
Terminator Chaplain (canticle of hate)
Infiltratators (to screen out deep striking behind johnson)
2x Deathwing terminators (any flavour, 1 unit stays with Primarch, the other charges off with the chaplain in a different direction)

The rest of the army is guns and obsec

Do I understand it correctly that he gaines the inner circle rule, as he has the appropriate key word? In that ca case, he only gets wounded on a 4+, which should add some durability even against melee attacks, right?

His warlord traits enables his screen to even better protect him, a squad of 6 bladeguards could tank quite a bit I would believe. (I have to admit I'm not too sure how heroic intervention actually works, maybe it isn't that useful)

Brickfix wrote:
Do I understand it correctly that he gaines the inner circle rule, as he has the appropriate key word? In that ca case, he only gets wounded on a 4+, which should add some durability even against melee attacks, right?

His warlord traits enables his screen to even better protect him, a squad of 6 bladeguards could tank quite a bit I would believe. (I have to admit I'm not too sure how heroic intervention actually works, maybe it isn't that useful)

The wound on 4+ only applies to infantry, like Guilliman he is a monster type unit so gets nothing.

 Insularum wrote:

Brickfix wrote:
Do I understand it correctly that he gaines the inner circle rule, as he has the appropriate key word? In that ca case, he only gets wounded on a 4+, which should add some durability even against melee attacks, right?

His warlord traits enables his screen to even better protect him, a squad of 6 bladeguards could tank quite a bit I would believe. (I have to admit I'm not too sure how heroic intervention actually works, maybe it isn't that useful)

The wound on 4+ only applies to infantry, like Guilliman he is a monster type unit so gets nothing.

Damn, I think I overlooked this before. Thanks!

Brickfix wrote:

 Insularum wrote:

Brickfix wrote:
Do I understand it correctly that he gaines the inner circle rule, as he has the appropriate key word? In that ca case, he only gets wounded on a 4+, which should add some durability even against melee attacks, right?

His warlord traits enables his screen to even better protect him, a squad of 6 bladeguards could tank quite a bit I would believe. (I have to admit I'm not too sure how heroic intervention actually works, maybe it isn't that useful)

The wound on 4+ only applies to infantry, like Guilliman he is a monster type unit so gets nothing.

Damn, I think I overlooked this before. Thanks!

He does get Grim Resolve (I think that's what it's called).

So, he gets that +1 to attack when charged/is charged...etc... to be even more blendery.

A bladeguard unit + Lion does make for some serious area of denial as ZergSmasher suggested.

I’m thinking of running a Judiciar near him in case he gets charged by a serious threat. If forced to fight last, Lion will kill most anything that he gets to swing at. Will add some terminators, some obsec infantry, and Ravenwing support for AT.

Well, the last 9th Edition Balance Dataslate just took away the ability of Deathwing to have wound rolls against them always fail on a 1-3.

With a very short line of text they just wiped out an army...

Codex Warfare now only grants a max of 5 in each Doctrine, which makes sense. This, combined with the changes to Deathwing, will certainly knock Dark Angels down.

Ravenwing can still function, so perhaps we'll ride into the sunset of 9th Edition on that!

Is there any good Ravenwing list? I've got some blacknights some bikes and too many landspeeders (which are awful with how terrain heavy my tables are.)