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 Matt Swain wrote:
You people who think temrinators will just casually stroll thru a star destroryer linke a walk in the park, what happens when the stormproopers bring out these guys?



You know, the guys with the big guns with large backpack power systems on them.

That backpack is not a direct power system for the rifle, though. The rifle is independent. I always saw that backpack as the gear they lug around in case they are caught out of the comforts of the base. If there is any dependency, it is just recharging the rifle's power pack.

Meanwhile, Terminators with a personal shield and twin-barrelled carbine that they can wield as a pistol with the accuracy of a rifle would probably fare pretty well.

Nu uh, cause the Mahrenz has +2 Invuln rerollable FNP for his ancient OC donut steal.

 Matt Swain wrote:
You people who think temrinators will just casually stroll thru a star destroryer linke a walk in the park, what happens when the stormproopers bring out these guys?



You know, the guys with the big guns with large backpack power systems on them.

Shoot them. They look like they're wearing the same plastic armor that regular Storm Troopers are wearing.

Yeah, stormtroopers on board a ship they knew couldn't possibly lay in wait, set up firepoints, ambush strangers clumping along...

Also we only saw a fraction of the weapons availavle in the SW universe. Remember this guy from rogue one?

https://www.cbr.com/star-wars-rogue-one-baze-repeating-cannon-illegal/

That thing could likely bring down a terminator or two .Also it might have alternate ammo meant to penetrate heavy armor.

Plus remember the bowcaster?

https://youtu.be/oAqHAJz-wG8

I'm sure the empire has comparable/equally effective stuff.

 Matt Swain wrote:
Yeah, stormtroopers on board a ship they knew couldn't possibly lay in wait, set up firepoints, ambush strangers clumping along...

True, but Space Marines, and Terminators in particular, are trained to deal with boarding in such uncomfortable terrain, and the average Tactical usually has at least a century of experience of dealing with such encounters in a variety of environments. The Stormtrooper, much less.

 Matt Swain wrote:
I'm sure the empire has comparable/equally effective stuff.

Okay, aside from the E-Web (which doesn't even match those examples, being a crew-served, tripod-mounted weapon), provide an example of one that could be expected on a Star Destroyer or Death Star in sufficient numbers to deal with a company of Space Marines. Unless they've recently raided Kashyyyk or some nameless gun runners den, I doubt it.

I could present the case of a Death Watch squad captain carrying a Calldius' Phase Sword, but that's not going to be a standard equipment one could expect the units to have.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
How do?

Spinning off from another thread where I reckoned an Astartes could make short work of a Cyberdyne Systems T-800 Model 101.

By all means use that as a jumping off point, but please do allow me first to set the random parameters to help frame the discussion.

1. The Marine is a ‘basic’ Marine. That means Bolt Rifle, Power Armour and Combat Blade. Plus frag, krak and if they come with them, Bolt Pistol (don’t have the current Codex I’m afraid).

2. The Other is similarly equipped. For instance, a Predator would have the same gear as the one from Predator. Blades, targetter, plasma caster etc. The Cyberdyne Systems T-800 Model 101 would have its Phased Plasma Rifle In The 40 Watt Range, and so on and so forth.

3. Because reasons, this is a straight one-on-one fight.

4. Because it’s their job, the Astartes is the invader, meaning The Other will have the home field advantage, in that it’s in its element.

5. Your argument must be based in some form of canon. For instance, and to continue the theme, the Dark Horse Predator, Terminator and Alien comics would be allowed - but fan theory or fan fiction is not. That’s not to dunk of fan stuff, it’s just to prevent hand-wavium wins for either side.

6. If you disagree with someone’s input, come with input of your own!

Right.......

SciFi vs Astartes.

Starfleet Engineer vs. Tech Priest.

It's just a flogging. The Tech Priest loses, while the Starfleet Engineer warps home on his new warp-capable Toboggan sipping a nice cup of Raktajino from his jerry-rigged Replicator.

^Haha. Funny matchup. There is a good story where a tech priest jerry-rigs a stasis field generator to trap a C'tan. That's pretty good. Starfleet has the bona-fide scientific method and a killer tech base going for them though, lol.

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Haha. Funny matchup. There is a good story where a tech priest jerry-rigs a stasis field generator to trap a C'tan. That's pretty good. Starfleet has the bona-fide scientific method and a killer tech base going for them though, lol.

"Give me one Chief O'Brien or failing that, give me all of Mars."

 Matt Swain wrote:
You people who think temrinators will just casually stroll thru a star destroryer linke a walk in the park, what happens when the stormproopers bring out these guys?



You know, the guys with the big guns with large backpack power systems on them.

Depends. Are the Termies the "Heroes" of this story? If so, nothing much will happen to them.

Are Storm Troopers ever the heroes though? They're like a whole faction of redshirts.

Don't Star Wars ships have "ray shields" that can trap boarders...like how they trapped Obi-Wan and Anakin?

The first time you see Storm Troopers is when they board Leia's ship in A New Hope. They did a good job, explosive breach, cleared the threshold, good accuracy...They only suck when required by plot.

Finally, a question for 40K and Teleporters...can you do a blind teleport (like Star Trek), or do you need a teleport beacon?

-STS

slade the sniper wrote:
Don't Star Wars ships have "ray shields" that can trap boarders...like how they trapped Obi-Wan and Anakin?

No guarantee that they would be installed in such a trapping ability on any Imperial ship. It is possible, but we haven't seen any indication of it. Also no idea if it would affect a fully enclosed Astartes, either, as ray shields don't seem to have much affect against hardened objects like missiles or ships. A helmetless Sergeant may get a fairly nasty sunburn on his face, though.

slade the sniper wrote:
The first time you see Storm Troopers is when they board Leia's ship in A New Hope. They did a good job, explosive breach, cleared the threshold, good accuracy...They only suck when required by plot.

True. Unfortunately, all we see them go against from the Death Star on is plot-armored characters. They captured the ground team on Endor through shear force of numbers and armor support.

The unfortunate counter-point is that Astartes tend to do just as well, if not better. Of course, their disadvantage would be that they couldn't fit as many Astartes in a hallway as the stormtroopers can. Those bases get pretty bulky, especially with Terminators.

slade the sniper wrote:
Finally, a question for 40K and Teleporters...can you do a blind teleport (like Star Trek), or do you need a teleport beacon?

I don't think teleport beacons are used to teleport on to Space Hulks, but I could be wrong. It's been a LONG time since I looked at that aspect of the lore (think original PC game).

Blind teleporting is possible, otherwise how would they use it to board enemy ships. A teleport homer just makes it more reliable or helps it beam through more material.

What Insectum said.

And it’s the teleporting that would prove a problem. Because you’ve no idea where the enemy are going to board. It could be a direct, accurate wombocombo Bridge and main Reactor Strike.

Gut both of those, and your foe is stuffed. Minimal power, controls trashed (mostly as a side effect of hosing the crew and pit area with Bolter fire).

In return? I don’t see SW having the required capacity to board a 40K ship, which have crews into the tens of thousands.

ISD crew from Wookieepedia

Crew requirements
Imperial I-class Star Destroyers had over 37,000 crew on board— 9,235 officers and 27,850 enlisted personnel. The complement of 9,700 stormtroopers added to a total of 46,785 crew and passengers.

Imperial Cobra Class Destroyer (their smallest warship class)

Crew - 15,000 crew, approximate.

So against the smallest ship, sure. If you can conduct a significant boarding action. With no teleporters, you’re down to shuttle and other specialised craft. Those need to run the gauntlet of point defence.

Bigger stuff, ships of the line and that? No chance. At all.

There’s also the difference in shield tech. Direct comparison is of course impossible. But see shields in Star Wars acting as a barrier, which can take a beating before collapsing.

Void Shields? They’re pumping the energy hitting them into the Warp. They’re also multi-layered, so it’s the devil’s work to collapse them all, and keep them collapsed. Because when a Void Shield drops, it’s the generator cutting out, like a fuse going. The chance of the generator itself being physically damaged is minimised by design - unless you pushed your shields beyond safe operation.

Now....Star Wars shields. We see some which relatively slow moving craft are able to penetrate (RotJ, TlJ) and somewhich deny energy and ships (Rogue One, Rebels, Clone Wars). Those all have planetside generators. We’re also shown in RoS that some shields can’t operate in certain atmospheres. Emphasis for clarity, as we can’t draw specific conclusions.

We also see in TLJ that even high end, advanced Turbolasers lose oomph over range. All they could do was keep lobbing shots to force the fleeing Raddus to expend energy maintaining the shields. That’s not over a massive range either - and as established, 40K fleets operate at stupendous range.

So even if a SW does have the firepower to strip void shields, they need to get in really, really close to do so - and survive getting in that close in the first place. Which is.....not guaranteed.

Of course, as a con for the Warhammer ships, a lot of them have a huge amount of empty space. To say that the Imperials could board with an AT-ST, if not an AT-AT, and it would have room to maneuver in the larger ships is not hyperbole.

Of course, they would be facing Imperium Armor in return, so...

That is true, but are those particularly effective at close range where Melta bombs can be brought into play? And there’s still the issue of getting them over there.

Also why are the Marines being pushed as the base line for troops that the Imperium has when the are very much a Special Forces group? Wouldn't it be more so accurate to display them against an equivalent SF group from a series and not the base line troops that are the equivalent of IG

 BlackoCatto wrote:
Also why are the Marines being pushed as the base line for troops that the Imperium has when the are very much a Special Forces group? Wouldn't it be more so accurate to display them against an equivalent SF group from a series and not the base line troops that are the equivalent of IG

There is less than 1 Marine per planet in both galaxies in this comparison and many of them are scattered such that even if we removed every other threat to the IoM they'd take years to contact let alone gather. In that time the GE would have the run of the place due to being faster at FTL and having better communications technology to organize their fleets.

They could be fast and talk to each other but they'd still have to actually fight in order to take a planet. I don't think they could manage it without huge losses. Losses on a scale that are routine for the Imperium would probably bring the GE to it's knees.

 Insectum7 wrote:
They could be fast and talk to each other but they'd still have to actually fight in order to take a planet. I don't think they could manage it without huge losses. Losses on a scale that are routine for the Imperium would probably bring the GE to it's knees.

Yeah, but unlike the IoM they can always strike where they have the best odds. Once they realize how slow the IoM fleets are they can literally send in as many ships as they like to any given fight and always have 10-to-1 numbers advantages in space. From there they can wipe out any orbital capacity the planet has and then leave. The IoM would always be on the back foot against an enemy they can never bring to battle and who, even once the IoM starts to reach their worlds, can trade dozens if not hundreds of worlds to one just due to the speed advantage. The difference between months or years of warp travel couple with bad orders and weeks to get literally anywhere and the best intel you can ask for is literally night and day and more than enough to make up for minor differences in unit strength on a ship-to-ship level.

Plus, in a total war scenario, the GE can simply outbuild the IoM. They can build moon-sized battle stations in mere years which speaks to insane capacity to build a fleet when given a reason to do so. Even if it's less efficient they can crew these ships with mainly clones and droids and make up the numbers due to scale. The IoM will feel every loss sharply as they literally cannot rebuild a shipyard and cannot replicate many of their most powerful ship designs. Even worse, if the GE figures out that they can kill the astronomicon by stopping the shipments of psykers then the IoM loses all FTL comms and most of their ability to navigate.

 Charistoph wrote:
Of course, as a con for the Warhammer ships, a lot of them have a huge amount of empty space. To say that the Imperials could board with an AT-ST, if not an AT-AT, and it would have room to maneuver in the larger ships is not hyperbole.

Of course, they would be facing Imperium Armor in return, so...

Isn't that because most of them were designed at the height of the imperium? Where each ship would cart around a chunk of a legion with all it's support.

But yes, you could probably have moderate scale conflicts inside of a 40K ship up to and including armoured warfare.

 Canadian 5th wrote:
Once they realize how slow the IoM fleets are they can literally send in as many ships as they like to any given fight and always have 10-to-1 numbers advantages in space. From there they can wipe out any orbital capacity the planet has and then leave.

But can they though? A planet brings a lot more tonnage than 10 Star Destroyers.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:
Once they realize how slow the IoM fleets are they can literally send in as many ships as they like to any given fight and always have 10-to-1 numbers advantages in space. From there they can wipe out any orbital capacity the planet has and then leave.

But can they though? A planet brings a lot more tonnage than 10 Star Destroyers.

So why are you sending only 10? 10-to-1 is based on how many defenses your scouts see. If they see a massive series of planetary defense batteries and a PDF fleet they might send several dozen ships.

Besides, most worlds have very limited defenses, for example, what tonnage of defense is a random agriworld going to have? How about a hive world that can barely maintain its defensive weapons and might have only a fraction of its nominal defensive capacity working at any given time? Many worlds in 40k barely have a PDF force, have zero space assets, and might have a few defensive weapons around a couple of major cities. That's why all the stories can always build tension by sending in a fleet, or just a lone ship, a couple of weeks late after the planet was overrun by an equally pathetic attacking force. The major systems are where you bring in the SSDs, Torpedo Spheres, or a Death Star and win the battle by removing anything worth fighting over and then leaving.

 Canadian 5th wrote:
So why are you sending only 10? 10-to-1 is based on how many defenses your scouts see. If they see a massive series of planetary defense batteries and a PDF fleet they might send several dozen ships.

Actually 10:1 odds would be hard, in terms of power projection. Sure, a standard Imperium fleet is about 50-60 ships, but when the escorts are the same size as an ISD, and only about 5 or 6 Super-class Star Destroyers were built, numbers alone may not be enough...

 Canadian 5th wrote:
Besides, most worlds have very limited defenses, for example, what tonnage of defense is a random agriworld going to have? How about a hive world that can barely maintain its defensive weapons and might have only a fraction of its nominal defensive capacity working at any given time? Many worlds in 40k barely have a PDF force, have zero space assets, and might have a few defensive weapons around a couple of major cities. That's why all the stories can always build tension by sending in a fleet, or just a lone ship, a couple of weeks late after the planet was overrun by an equally pathetic attacking force. The major systems are where you bring in the SSDs, Torpedo Spheres, or a Death Star and win the battle by removing anything worth fighting over and then leaving.

Two things to consider on that. If a world has value, it will have strong defenses. If a world does not have strong defenses, either it has little value, or it is already under siege by other forces that would be just as happy krumping Imperials as Imperium, and probably couldn't tell the difference any way. After all, an Ork would probably be happier dealing with a storm trooper in white armor than the green-clad Cadians. Of course, there is the odd planet that does have value, but just finished busting a nasty Waaaagh or Necron reclamation, or Nurgle plague party, but that's still a long shot out of millions of planets.

 Charistoph wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:
So why are you sending only 10? 10-to-1 is based on how many defenses your scouts see. If they see a massive series of planetary defense batteries and a PDF fleet they might send several dozen ships.

Actually 10:1 odds would be hard, in terms of power projection. Sure, a standard Imperium fleet is about 50-60 ships, but when the escorts are the same size as an ISD, and only about 5 or 6 Super-class Star Destroyers were built, numbers alone may not be enough...

Not every world has a fleet, heck, not every sector has a proper fleet. Even so, size is meaningless if an ISD can pack the same punch as a larger IoM vessel.

Even with those 50-60 ship fleets and assuming that they're defending every system the GE might wish to fight them in, that doesn't really make it so the GE can't attack them in numbers. They have over 25,000 Star Destroyers, 13 SSDs of known types, and many other large ships such as those present in RotJ which aren't ISDs, VSDs, or SSDs. Not to mention frigates, corvettes, and other hyperspace-capable strike craft. If they wanted to hold back half their strength for defense they could still attack 25 systems with a fleet of 500 ISDs each if they wanted roughly10-to-1 ship ratios. They could then move on to the next system, and the next, while the IoM can't marshal forces quickly enough to meet them in strength.

Two things to consider on that. If a world has value, it will have strong defenses. If a world does not have strong defenses, either it has little value, or it is already under siege by other forces that would be just as happy krumping Imperials as Imperium, and probably couldn't tell the difference any way. After all, an Ork would probably be happier dealing with a storm trooper in white armor than the green-clad Cadians. Of course, there is the odd planet that does have value, but just finished busting a nasty Waaaagh or Necron reclamation, or Nurgle plague party, but that's still a long shot out of millions of planets.

If these lightly defended worlds have no value, and rest assured agri-worlds do hold great value, why do we see stories of forces being rushed in to defend them because they don't have a real PDF fleet on hand to do the job? If these worlds have no value, why does the IoM hold them at all? Also, a strong defense is a relative term. It could hold up against a 60 ship fleet, but how about a 5,000 ship one? How about a Death Star cracking one such world per day?

The GE can only do rapid fire pin point attacks like guerrilla warfare if they are on the offense and it is a "slow" war. If we remove any other threat to the Imperium and have them do a full on assault on the GE with all they have my bet would be on the Imperium. If Imperial Fleets start popping out of the warp all over the Galactic Empire in full force then it doesn't matter much if the empire have better FTL travel and can concentrate its forces better. Smaller forces they could jump all over the place and take out one by one but if equal or larger numbers show up around Coruscant, what are they supposed to do then? They would be overwhelmed by the Imperial war machine that have been in total war for millennia and now have all their resources free to focus on only one enemy. Any and all outside threats should be discarded because they are as much of a threat to the GE if the two were to ever come in contact and would hamper them as much.

The Star Wars universe is mostly about infighting about ideologies and politics. Doesn't matter too much who wins and rules after. Life will go on. Finding support for an all out war against another super power is probably not going to be easy. What would be the justification for the masses to enter a total war state? Palpatine might be the emperor but his fleets and armies are more about maintaining control then go conquering. He doesn't have the control and support that the leadership of the Imperium have. A war against the Imperium would probably break the GE from within even if the Imperium doesnt do it. Sure, the non human species would fight the Imperium but those are already supressed in the GE so the one rallying thing the GE could have they have already lost. The Imperium on the other hand wouldn't have that problem at all. They have fought a never ending war for survival going on for thousands of years. They don't have any need for justification or to convince the people at this point. Besides, a massive empire mostly lead by humans that have been misguided to only treat aliens badly and not exterminate them need some Impertial "Truth" before they get too corrupted by "chaos"/the force anyway if they even needed to justify it. They have done this gak for thousands of years.

The only real hurdle is the time it would take to respond. If taking too long time and the conflict slowly escalates it could be a bit problematic. If the war goes on for decades before the High Lords take notice and come to an agreement the GE could be united against the outside threat, their production increased and the losses to the Imperium starting to be felt. But if you have a Primarch in lead like the current Imperium and he makes a quick decision it is all over for the GE in no time.

The logistics of each empire is based on the universe they inhabit. Let’s compare apples with slate while we’re at it...

Has the GE ever even fought a large external enemy? From what I can tell they function more like a hyper millitant police. There's no existential threat.

Canadian 5th wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:
So why are you sending only 10? 10-to-1 is based on how many defenses your scouts see. If they see a massive series of planetary defense batteries and a PDF fleet they might send several dozen ships.

Actually 10:1 odds would be hard, in terms of power projection. Sure, a standard Imperium fleet is about 50-60 ships, but when the escorts are the same size as an ISD, and only about 5 or 6 Super-class Star Destroyers were built, numbers alone may not be enough...

Not every world has a fleet, heck, not every sector has a proper fleet. Even so, size is meaningless if an ISD can pack the same punch as a larger IoM vessel.

Size is important because it presents a relative capability to project power. The ability for an ISD to punch above an escort's weight is as speculative as its ability to handle the kinetic weaponry the Imperium utilizes. As a case in point, a slow moving rock managed to take out the whole bridge section of an ISD, with other captains complaining about the damage they've taken.

Canadian 5th wrote:Even with those 50-60 ship fleets and assuming that they're defending every system the GE might wish to fight them in, that doesn't really make it so the GE can't attack them in numbers. They have over 25,000 Star Destroyers, 13 SSDs of known types, and many other large ships such as those present in RotJ which aren't ISDs, VSDs, or SSDs. Not to mention frigates, corvettes, and other hyperspace-capable strike craft. If they wanted to hold back half their strength for defense they could still attack 25 systems with a fleet of 500 ISDs each if they wanted roughly10-to-1 ship ratios. They could then move on to the next system, and the next, while the IoM can't marshal forces quickly enough to meet them in strength.

Most of the Chapters of the Astartes have at least one Battle Barge, that is roughly an SSD equivalent (though more focused on boarding and planetary assault), with many Cruisers being used to support their Battle Companies. These operate separately from the Imperium's naval fleet.

And it is possible for them to marshal quickly to meet them in strength, just not a guarantee. Since the GE couldn't track their movements at all, it would be just as much luck to avoid an Imperium fleet as it would be to target one, unless it was already engaged. Remember, these fleets are used to maneuvering around a sector to face new threats.

The GE hardly ever gathered that many ships in to one place, either. Endor only had about 35 Imperial ships there, and that was the Imperium equivalent to a Battleship with 34 Escorts. The Frigates and Corvettes would be closer to bombers than any effective capital ship. For every ISD that was attacking the Imperium, that is a planet or sector the Rebels would snatch back quick.

Canadian 5th wrote:

Two things to consider on that. If a world has value, it will have strong defenses. If a world does not have strong defenses, either it has little value, or it is already under siege by other forces that would be just as happy krumping Imperials as Imperium, and probably couldn't tell the difference any way. After all, an Ork would probably be happier dealing with a storm trooper in white armor than the green-clad Cadians. Of course, there is the odd planet that does have value, but just finished busting a nasty Waaaagh or Necron reclamation, or Nurgle plague party, but that's still a long shot out of millions of planets.

If these lightly defended worlds have no value, and rest assured agri-worlds do hold great value, why do we see stories of forces being rushed in to defend them because they don't have a real PDF fleet on hand to do the job? If these worlds have no value, why does the IoM hold them at all? Also, a strong defense is a relative term. It could hold up against a 60 ship fleet, but how about a 5,000 ship one? How about a Death Star cracking one such world per day?

Because the Imperium does not believe in doing things by half measures. If a hive can provide regiments, then the regiments will be sent there. Most PDFs are there to hold the attackers in place until reinforcements arrive, as it is.

As for the Death Star, first, it would have to get there, and internal forces of the Empire could prevent that, second, review the previous conversations about boarding and Exterminatus.

One thing also to consider from the OP, the IoM would be on the attack, not the GE. They would be responding to the Imperium's attacks first, and there are thousands of star systems in the GE, barely covered by an ISD.

Insectum7 wrote:Has the GE ever even fought a large external enemy? From what I can tell they function more like a hyper millitant police. There's no existential threat.

At the time of Palpatine's power, no. There were a few minor parties like the Hutts or the Happans. There could have been some challengers in the Unknown Regions, but aside from the Chiss Ascendency (who they were on reasonably good terms), there was little Imperial presence there till the First Order set up shop. After Palpatine, there was the New Republic, but the Empire was falling apart. From there, it depends on the timeline in question.

The Ssi-ruuk were starting to invade at Bakura when Pappa Palpatine was thrown down a shaft at Endor, and the Imperial forces were having a hard time with them till reinforcements arrived. The Yuuzhon Vong could have hit them hard, but there was a lot of speculation about how well the Empire could have faced them.

The First Order seemed to have things in hand, but had the same internal problems that made for a fragile system as the GE. I haven't read any of the intervening books between RotJ and FA, so I have no idea how they would have fared.

Really off the beaten path, but is there a list of all the "planet destroyers" in 40K? Basically, all the stuff that is equivalent to a Death Star or a Star Killer Base?

I don't mean exterminatus, which can be replicated (in theory) by a Base Delta Zero in Star Wars, or Federation "General Order 24" in Star Trek (which was given to individual starship captains, which sort of gives the impression that a large Starfleet ship "could" do it, although it has never been observed).

So, what 40K stuff just blows up planets, or reliably removes them from reality?

Another stupid question...what would Lex Luthor's battle armor count as? I am assuming it is basically just an artificer terminator powered armor (like high level inquisitors can get with an iron halo built in?)
Last stupid question...what about Doom! Is he just an Alpha Plus psyker in artificer powered armor (something that maybe a Chapter Master might have) with a forcefield (iron halo?)

I don't think either of them are too far beyond Primarchs or C'tan Shards so they could be "replicated" in 40K.

-STS