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Made in us
On a Canoptek Spyder's Waiting List





America

 Xenomancers wrote:
 CommanderWalrus wrote:
Talking about Spacw Marines? Oh no, I hope everyone is being nice...something about that faction seems to provoke people to extreme anger arguing for and against them.
This thread is an interesting read though.

It's cause dakka.
The land where tactical marines havn't been terrible for all existence. Only here too.

I'm fresh and green so I can't speak to how good or bad tactical marines have or haven't been, but I will say that in general, in other games highly generalized units like that tend to be a bit hard to gauge. Good and bad gets muddled when a unit is advertised for it's simplicity.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
No even then Tacticals weren't good. There's a reason why they lamented the fact that Grey Hunters were overall better because they got to specialize in their role and were cheaper since 5th edition. Tacticals have always been in this spot of "We're a generalist jack of all trades, that doesn't really work at being a jack of all trades. We don't outshoot the unshooty, we don't outfight the unfighty" and have always been a tax on the army in general when people took them.

A: Grey Hunters weren't in my codex.
B: Grey Hunters couldn't take the heavy that Tacs could. The Heavy is really useful, allowing them to act as fire support when they need to. Tacs also got it at a discount for many editions. Paying 15 points for a Lascannon while Devastators paid 35, for example. The Las-Plas Tacs weren't common in 3rd and 4th because they sucked.

 Xenomancers wrote:

It's cause dakka.
The land where tactical marines havn't been terrible for all existence. Only here too.
Elite veteran units require elite veteran commanders to use well, my man.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
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Annandale, VA

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is a bad point.

Orks boys don't match up well against intercessors because they have ap-0 attacks vs 3+ saves. 10 Intercessors only kills 1 Primaris marine but kills 8 ork boys in melee...They actually have the same quality attack and orks per point put out about 4x the melee damage.


Nah.

SemperMortis already demonstrated that the Marines have better damage output, point-for-point, even without considering durability two pages ago.

Go actually read his post, then you can explain why it's wrong.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/14 20:56:18


 
   
Made in us
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No, it's time to try and out-meme himself by claiming that a unit with THREE INCH engagement range can outshoot a unit with THIRTY INCH engagement range therefore marines are weak and underpowered XD

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
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Executing Exarch






Ahhh yes xeno doing xeno things.


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
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 Argive wrote:
Ahhh yes xeno doing xeno things.


I disagree with some people here, and sometimes the way some of them behave, and sometimes with a bit of vehemence - but the very, very few people I actually ignore are those who have thought processes or environments so utterly divorced from conventional sapience and understood fact that it's just not worth trying to work through the diplomatic equivalent of a tense alien first-contact scenario to explain basic math on every single thread when they aren't going to take anything away from it anyway.
   
Made in us
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Tacticals absolutely outshot the non-shooty units, Ork slugga boyz are "unshooty" and Tacticals absolutely out shoot them. Tactical Marines again absolutely outfight the "unfighty" Ever seen tacticals let loose in a Tau Fire warrior squad?

I mean this is true. They did outshoot slugga boys pistols.. And then just fell to pieces when their 24" 1 shot (or 2 within 12 if they haven't moved) and the much cheaper boyz came in and ran them over. Since the boyz even with special weapons in the Tactical squad couldn't kill enough of them to really do much to really do a dint.

As for the Tau Warriors.. Yeah they certainly feared S4 A1 attack per round. Yeah they were outfought with their much lower WS skill, but they're also cheaper then your tactical marine, and now your special weapons and bolters are tied up plinking away with combat knives. This is certainly not the thing they want to be doing at all in past editions, and short of desperately tying something dangerous up they were generally bad at melee. Not to mention there was no real way to get them into melee range with Tau warriors shooting them beforehand since the only option would be the Rhino with the lack of assault charge unless you were trying something odd from the land raider.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/04/14 22:00:26


 
   
Made in us
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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Tacticals absolutely outshot the non-shooty units, Ork slugga boyz are "unshooty" and Tacticals absolutely out shoot them. Tactical Marines again absolutely outfight the "unfighty" Ever seen tacticals let loose in a Tau Fire warrior squad?

I mean this is true. They did outshoot slugga boys pistols.. And then just fell to pieces when their 24" 1 shot (or 2 within 12 if they haven't moved) and the much cheaper boyz came in and ran them over. Since the boyz even with special weapons in the Tactical squad couldn't kill enough of them to really do much to really do a dint.
Flamers were my go-to Special in 3rd ed. They did good work.

Lascannons to blow up the Trukks/Wagons, Bolters to thin the ranks, Flamers to finish them off. If that wasn't enough rely on ATSKNF to get you not-wiped out in combat, then fall back (using Purity Seals to get an ideal roll) and put the Bolters and Flamers to work again. Rinse and repeat until there are no more Orks.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Insectum7 wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Tacticals absolutely outshot the non-shooty units, Ork slugga boyz are "unshooty" and Tacticals absolutely out shoot them. Tactical Marines again absolutely outfight the "unfighty" Ever seen tacticals let loose in a Tau Fire warrior squad?

I mean this is true. They did outshoot slugga boys pistols.. And then just fell to pieces when their 24" 1 shot (or 2 within 12 if they haven't moved) and the much cheaper boyz came in and ran them over. Since the boyz even with special weapons in the Tactical squad couldn't kill enough of them to really do much to really do a dint.
Flamers were my go-to Special in 3rd ed. They did good work.

Lascannons to blow up the Trukks/Wagons, Bolters to thin the ranks, Flamers to finish them off. If that wasn't enough rely on ATSKNF to get you not-wiped out in combat, then fall back (using Purity Seals to get an ideal roll) and put the Bolters and Flamers to work again. Rinse and repeat until there are no more Orks.


Insectum, you don't understand, SM players shouldn't have to use tactics or skill. They should just have better rules/models so that you can just meet at the game store, say "I win" shake hands and go home.

And lets not bring pesky things like Flamers into this discussion, where a single flamer could, and did, wipe out anywhere from 3-8 boyz in a single turn. Because remember, Most flamers were AP5 back then which meant orkz didn't even get a save vs their autohits.

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in ca
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran




Vancouver, BC

 Insectum7 wrote:
Flamers were my go-to Special in 3rd ed. They did good work.

Lascannons to blow up the Trukks/Wagons, Bolters to thin the ranks, Flamers to finish them off. If that wasn't enough rely on ATSKNF to get you not-wiped out in combat, then fall back (using Purity Seals to get an ideal roll) and put the Bolters and Flamers to work again. Rinse and repeat until there are no more Orks.

Except you couldn't fire the lascannon if you moved, so you'd have a number of turns where you paid for a weapon that was doing jack squat for you. The same goes for the flamer, if you used the lascannon then you were 100% wasting your flamer and bolter shots. If you included a fist or a power sword you had even more points sitting around useless each turn.

This is why mixed heavy/special tac squads have always been pretty bad except for rare cases when las/plas/combi-plas was a reasonable threat to a vehicle or heavy infantry unit.

SemperMortis wrote:
And lets not bring pesky things like Flamers into this discussion, where a single flamer could, and did, wipe out anywhere from 3-8 boyz in a single turn. Because remember, Most flamers were AP5 back then which meant orkz didn't even get a save vs their autohits.

Did you tank shock them into a clump or did you only ever face trukk boyz who tend to bunch up after their ride explodes?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/14 22:42:51


 
   
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Astonished of Heck

 Insectum7 wrote:
Lascannons to blow up the Trukks/Wagons, Bolters to thin the ranks, Flamers to finish them off. If that wasn't enough rely on ATSKNF to get you not-wiped out in combat, then fall back (using Purity Seals to get an ideal roll) and put the Bolters and Flamers to work again. Rinse and repeat until there are no more Orks.

Not every edition allowed a unit to change targets to the transported if they blew up a transport for one reason or another. I'm glad that foolishness is over.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
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 Canadian 5th wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Flamers were my go-to Special in 3rd ed. They did good work.

Lascannons to blow up the Trukks/Wagons, Bolters to thin the ranks, Flamers to finish them off. If that wasn't enough rely on ATSKNF to get you not-wiped out in combat, then fall back (using Purity Seals to get an ideal roll) and put the Bolters and Flamers to work again. Rinse and repeat until there are no more Orks.

Except you couldn't fire the lascannon if you moved, so you'd have a number of turns where you paid for a weapon that was doing jack squat for you. The same goes for the flamer, if you used the lascannon then you were 100% wasting your flamer and bolter shots. If you included a fist or a power sword you had even more points sitting around useless each turn.

This is why mixed heavy/special tac squads have always been pretty bad except for rare cases when las/plas/combi-plas was a reasonable threat to a vehicle or heavy infantry unit.


2 words: Combat Squad

Suddenly that lascannon is sitting in the backfield with 4 bolters as ablative wounds while the Sgt and Flamer run forward to flame targets and duel the ork character for easy points

 Canadian 5th wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
And lets not bring pesky things like Flamers into this discussion, where a single flamer could, and did, wipe out anywhere from 3-8 boyz in a single turn. Because remember, Most flamers were AP5 back then which meant orkz didn't even get a save vs their autohits.

Did you tank shock them into a clump or did you only ever face trukk boyz who tend to bunch up after their ride explodes?
I play orkz and guess what happens when you try to get into CC with enough boyz to have an impact with your 3 S4 attacks on the charge and S3 every turn thereafter? You group up and suddenly you are an easy target for template weapons.

On the topic of Trukk Boyz though, if a Trukk exploded, it killed 1/6th of the passengers, this meant you had to roll a 2-3 to pass your morale check, meaning you likely failed and ran away while also losing D6 more boyz, and after that you had to check for morale from losing boys which meant you likely lost another D6 (D6 were auto-hits so you still had to roll to wound on a 4+).

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Annandale, VA

 Canadian 5th wrote:

Did you tank shock them into a clump or did you only ever face trukk boyz who tend to bunch up after their ride explodes?


6" move and no pile-in meant a mob of 30 Boyz maximally spread out to avoid flamers and templates wasn't much of a melee threat, so if the Ork player was hamstringing themselves just because you brought a flamer, mission accomplished.

Keeping horde infantry strung out 100% of the time was never, ever practical. It's one of those nonsense theorycrafting arguments that only exists when there's no table to cram that green tide into, no objectives to hold, and no enemies that require you to bring an entire unit within Shoota or melee range.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Canadian 5th wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Flamers were my go-to Special in 3rd ed. They did good work.

Lascannons to blow up the Trukks/Wagons, Bolters to thin the ranks, Flamers to finish them off. If that wasn't enough rely on ATSKNF to get you not-wiped out in combat, then fall back (using Purity Seals to get an ideal roll) and put the Bolters and Flamers to work again. Rinse and repeat until there are no more Orks.

Except you couldn't fire the lascannon if you moved, so you'd have a number of turns where you paid for a weapon that was doing jack squat for you. The same goes for the flamer, if you used the lascannon then you were 100% wasting your flamer and bolter shots. If you included a fist or a power sword you had even more points sitting around useless each turn.

This is why mixed heavy/special tac squads have always been pretty bad except for rare cases when las/plas/combi-plas was a reasonable threat to a vehicle or heavy infantry unit.
At 15 points the Las was hardly a waste of points even if you only used it once or twice in a game. Plus Bolters could glance Trukks so could still support the Las.

I could spend 170 points on a Predator with four Lascannons, or I could spend a fraction of the points and put Lascannons on squads I already have to buy (troops) and I'll get value out of them doing other things as well. Plus, Lascannons distributed among a bunch of marines didn't die nearly as fast as a Predator. Using Tacticals was all about choosing the right target priority and firing order. Sometimes you don't use the Lascannon, and that's fine.
. . .
The Orks are usually all grouped up after they've closed in for CC. Flamer target paradise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote:

2 words: Combat Squad
Well Combat Squadding wasn't a thing again until 5th edition. During 3rd and 4th we did without. 5th Ed changed Tacticals pretty dramatically by giving them Bolt Pistols, Frag and Krak by default, making them more capable in CC against Vehicles in particular.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/14 23:04:49


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
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Astonished of Heck

 Insectum7 wrote:
Well Combat Squadding wasn't a thing again until 5th edition. During 3rd and 4th we did without. 5th Ed changed Tacticals pretty dramatically by giving them Bolt Pistols, Frag and Krak by default, making them more capable in CC against Vehicles in particular.

Till Krak Grenades went from being placed in Melee to being Thrown in Melee so only one guy could use one.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Charistoph wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Well Combat Squadding wasn't a thing again until 5th edition. During 3rd and 4th we did without. 5th Ed changed Tacticals pretty dramatically by giving them Bolt Pistols, Frag and Krak by default, making them more capable in CC against Vehicles in particular.

Till Krak Grenades went from being placed in Melee to being Thrown in Melee so only one guy could use one.
In all of 7th edition that was the actual worst rule change they made.

Edit: ESPECIALLY since Knights and WraithKnights were running around by then and Ork Tankbustas, (traditionally armed with Meltabombs or some equivalent) were one of the best options in that army to deal with superheavies. But no, a mob of 20 Tankbustas, instead of being able to all plant AT charges on a Knight, only one could. How $#&^ing stupid of GW.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/14 23:13:25


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
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SemperMortis wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Tacticals absolutely outshot the non-shooty units, Ork slugga boyz are "unshooty" and Tacticals absolutely out shoot them. Tactical Marines again absolutely outfight the "unfighty" Ever seen tacticals let loose in a Tau Fire warrior squad?

I mean this is true. They did outshoot slugga boys pistols.. And then just fell to pieces when their 24" 1 shot (or 2 within 12 if they haven't moved) and the much cheaper boyz came in and ran them over. Since the boyz even with special weapons in the Tactical squad couldn't kill enough of them to really do much to really do a dint.
Flamers were my go-to Special in 3rd ed. They did good work.

Lascannons to blow up the Trukks/Wagons, Bolters to thin the ranks, Flamers to finish them off. If that wasn't enough rely on ATSKNF to get you not-wiped out in combat, then fall back (using Purity Seals to get an ideal roll) and put the Bolters and Flamers to work again. Rinse and repeat until there are no more Orks.


Insectum, you don't understand, SM players shouldn't have to use tactics or skill. They should just have better rules/models so that you can just meet at the game store, say "I win" shake hands and go home.

And lets not bring pesky things like Flamers into this discussion, where a single flamer could, and did, wipe out anywhere from 3-8 boyz in a single turn. Because remember, Most flamers were AP5 back then which meant orkz didn't even get a save vs their autohits.
I play CSM. I had the at the time surprisingly better CSM which could double up on special weapons or melee to actually specialize for a role that actually works for winning the game, but at the time most slugga boyz were riding in vehicles anyways for all your snark comes into play since they could charge out of the open topped vehicle with assault vehicle rules. Not to mention flamers range tends to mean that you'll get to fire it once before being swarmed by boyz, though you are right in that some will die due to it being effectively the counter to boyz.
   
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^CSM whom Orks could run down and wipe out in CC. Which they could not do to Tacticals and other loyalists. Tacs carried the Lascanons for the Trukks, as I mentioned.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
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 Insectum7 wrote:
^CSM whom Orks could run down and wipe out in CC. Which they could not do to Tacticals and other loyalists. Tacs carried the Lascanons for the Trukks, as I mentioned.
They couldn't take down tacticals.. Why exactly? CSM could take double flamers, or double plasma for generalist dealings for shooting light vehicles and heavily armored units. If Orks got into melee with Tacticals they fell apart just like the rest. CSM could even do proper counter charges if they took melee weapons (which they were still less expensive then tacticals for at the time).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/14 23:51:10


 
   
Made in us
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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I play CSM. I had the at the time surprisingly better CSM which could double up on special weapons or melee to actually specialize for a role that actually works for winning the game, but at the time most slugga boyz were riding in vehicles anyways for all your snark comes into play since they could charge out of the open topped vehicle with assault vehicle rules. Not to mention flamers range tends to mean that you'll get to fire it once before being swarmed by boyz, though you are right in that some will die due to it being effectively the counter to boyz.


Slugga boyz were not riding in vehicles for the most part in 7th. In fact, the most competitive build for Orkz in 7th was "Green Tide" Which was 10 Mobz of Boyz who weren't allowed to take vehicles. And it was only competitive because of the 5+ FNP they all got and the 5++ invuln save they all got for the KFF.

Trukk rush was a thing for a bit but thanks to AV10, +1 for being open topped and the god awful morale rules we had in 7th, Trukk boyz weren't as good as the Green Tide.

As far as flamers, you are forgetting their most useful role though. If you got to use them 1 time you killed 3-8 ork boyz, if you got charged you did D6 auto-hits which again, went through ork armor so you were basically autokilling anyone wounded in overwatch by a flamer. Also, the rule was if a flamer hit a vehicle with occupants....all the occupants were hit I had that particular trick used on me once or twice

 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





SemperMortis wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I play CSM. I had the at the time surprisingly better CSM which could double up on special weapons or melee to actually specialize for a role that actually works for winning the game, but at the time most slugga boyz were riding in vehicles anyways for all your snark comes into play since they could charge out of the open topped vehicle with assault vehicle rules. Not to mention flamers range tends to mean that you'll get to fire it once before being swarmed by boyz, though you are right in that some will die due to it being effectively the counter to boyz.


Slugga boyz were not riding in vehicles for the most part in 7th. In fact, the most competitive build for Orkz in 7th was "Green Tide" Which was 10 Mobz of Boyz who weren't allowed to take vehicles. And it was only competitive because of the 5+ FNP they all got and the 5++ invuln save they all got for the KFF.

Trukk rush was a thing for a bit but thanks to AV10, +1 for being open topped and the god awful morale rules we had in 7th, Trukk boyz weren't as good as the Green Tide.

As far as flamers, you are forgetting their most useful role though. If you got to use them 1 time you killed 3-8 ork boyz, if you got charged you did D6 auto-hits which again, went through ork armor so you were basically autokilling anyone wounded in overwatch by a flamer. Also, the rule was if a flamer hit a vehicle with occupants....all the occupants were hit I had that particular trick used on me once or twice
Oh if we were discussing 7th that's an entirely different game... My brain was stuck in 5th for this discussion

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/14 23:54:10


 
   
Made in us
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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
^CSM whom Orks could run down and wipe out in CC. Which they could not do to Tacticals and other loyalists. Tacs carried the Lascanons for the Trukks, as I mentioned.
They couldn't take down tacticals.. Why exactly? CSM could take double flamers, or double plasma for generalist dealings for shooting light vehicles and heavily armored units. If Orks got into melee with Tacticals they fell apart just like the rest. CSM could even do proper counter charges if they took melee weapons (which they were still less expensive then tacticals for at the time).

He greatly overvalues ATSKNF


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 Charistoph wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
Well Combat Squadding wasn't a thing again until 5th edition. During 3rd and 4th we did without. 5th Ed changed Tacticals pretty dramatically by giving them Bolt Pistols, Frag and Krak by default, making them more capable in CC against Vehicles in particular.

Till Krak Grenades went from being placed in Melee to being Thrown in Melee so only one guy could use one.
In all of 7th edition that was the actual worst rule change they made.

Edit: ESPECIALLY since Knights and WraithKnights were running around by then and Ork Tankbustas, (traditionally armed with Meltabombs or some equivalent) were one of the best options in that army to deal with superheavies. But no, a mob of 20 Tankbustas, instead of being able to all plant AT charges on a Knight, only one could. How $#&^ing stupid of GW.

What's funny is most people I know didn't even catch that change and about halfway through 7th were still playing it the other way.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/15 00:16:06


CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
^CSM whom Orks could run down and wipe out in CC. Which they could not do to Tacticals and other loyalists. Tacs carried the Lascanons for the Trukks, as I mentioned.
They couldn't take down tacticals.. Why exactly?
CSM could be Sweeping Advanced and wiped out through morale, loyalists could not.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
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 Insectum7 wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
^CSM whom Orks could run down and wipe out in CC. Which they could not do to Tacticals and other loyalists. Tacs carried the Lascanons for the Trukks, as I mentioned.
They couldn't take down tacticals.. Why exactly?
CSM could be Sweeping Advanced and wiped out through morale, loyalists could not.
Ah ATSKNF. I was more thinking that Tacs were going to be obliterated through sheer numbers of attacks rather then morale typically.
   
Made in ca
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Vancouver, BC

SemperMortis wrote:
2 words: Combat Squad

Not in 3rd and 4th edition they couldn't. Even in 5th where you could squad, most people still preferred to run a minimum-sized unit and a Razorback for the better points efficiency.

I play orkz and guess what happens when you try to get into CC with enough boyz to have an impact with your 3 S4 attacks on the charge and S3 every turn thereafter? You group up and suddenly you are an easy target for template weapons.

Sure, but before 5th they could also just consolidate back into melee and be safe.

On the topic of Trukk Boyz though, if a Trukk exploded, it killed 1/6th of the passengers, this meant you had to roll a 2-3 to pass your morale check, meaning you likely failed and ran away while also losing D6 more boyz, and after that you had to check for morale from losing boys which meant you likely lost another D6 (D6 were auto-hits so you still had to roll to wound on a 4+).

This also varies from edition to edition.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/15 01:06:43


 
   
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:What's funny is most people I know didn't even catch that change and about halfway through 7th were still playing it the other way.

That ruling wasn't made till halfway through 7th, though. While there were discussions a few here, it wasn't until the Grand FAQ that GW specifically stated that only one Grenade-style weapon could be used in Melee.

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 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
^CSM whom Orks could run down and wipe out in CC. Which they could not do to Tacticals and other loyalists. Tacs carried the Lascanons for the Trukks, as I mentioned.
They couldn't take down tacticals.. Why exactly?
CSM could be Sweeping Advanced and wiped out through morale, loyalists could not.
Ah ATSKNF. I was more thinking that Tacs were going to be obliterated through sheer numbers of attacks rather then morale typically.
If you run the numbers it still takes a lot of Boyz to wipe out a squad, and as a defender you shouldn't be letting full 30-man squads hitting you in the first place. It's much more likely that you lose part of the squad, in which case you're probably facing some morale issues.

(30×4×.5x.333x.5=9.99)? 10 wounds if you get all 30 into combat, which was pretty unlikely. Nob give you some more, but lost casualties on the way in and incomplete contact swings it down again.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/15 01:28:06


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 Insectum7 wrote:
If you run the numbers it still takes a lot of Boyz to wipe out a squad, and as a defender you shouldn't be letting full 30-man squads hitting you in the first place. It's much more likely that you lose part of the squad, in which case you're probably facing some morale issues.

(30×4×.5x.333x.5=9.99)? 10 wounds if you get all 30 into combat, which was pretty unlikely. Nob give you some more, but lost casualties on the way in and incomplete contact swings it down again.

As the defender, you'd still want to position to actually shoot stuff with more than just your tac's single heavy weapon. If your board also had some LoS blocking terrain on it, those boyz were far more likely to get there even if they were worse off against blast weapons. Even then, how many blasts would you have unless you list tailored against orks? Most blasts were bad against the Marine v Marine mirror and didn't get any better against CSM, Necrons, Tau, heck even some guard lists could ignore them and turn those flamers into wasted points.
   
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 Canadian 5th wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:
If you run the numbers it still takes a lot of Boyz to wipe out a squad, and as a defender you shouldn't be letting full 30-man squads hitting you in the first place. It's much more likely that you lose part of the squad, in which case you're probably facing some morale issues.

(30×4×.5x.333x.5=9.99)? 10 wounds if you get all 30 into combat, which was pretty unlikely. Nob give you some more, but lost casualties on the way in and incomplete contact swings it down again.

As the defender, you'd still want to position to actually shoot stuff with more than just your tac's single heavy weapon.
Duh?
If your board also had some LoS blocking terrain on it, those boyz were far more likely to get there even if they were worse off against blast weapons. Even then, how many blasts would you have unless you list tailored against orks? Most blasts were bad against the Marine v Marine mirror and didn't get any better against CSM, Necrons, Tau, heck even some guard lists could ignore them and turn those flamers into wasted points.
Whirlwinds and Vindicators were pretty great for either spooking people from clumping up or dissuaded from advancing down corridors. Plasma Cannons too, once they were available again in 4th.

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You were making it sound like 20+ man boyz squads never got to touch your tactical squads. It's not as cut and dry as just saying that they shouldn't ever hit you with a full-strength unit while you're defending.

Whirlwinds and Vindicators were pretty great for either spooking people from clumping up or dissuaded from advancing down corridors. Plasma Cannons too, once they were available again in 4th.

Vindicators are stuck with 24" range single-shot weapons and only effective if you go first. If you go second and aren't able to hide them, they're like as not to be stunned and then they don't threaten anything.

Plus, anybody running transports just wouldn't care about a Whirlwind and even if a Vindicator did take out a Rhino or Razorback that was a better outcome than it hitting anything that actually matters. You'd have scared me far more if you invested in assault canons and dreadnoughts because those could have an impact on more aspects of my army.
   
 
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