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Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






I can think of a lot of good reasons, which leaves me curious as to which one it is/was.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

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Devon, UK

 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Azreal13 wrote:
If anyone has "tells someone they're being ignored rather than clicking ignore and moving on" on their Dakka bingo cards, be sure and tick that off!


You do realize that 'ignore' really is a half measure, right? I've had Ninthmusketter on ignore for years, and I can still see his posts.


I think you need to tell Matt this, not me. I mean, I could tell him, but then he wouldn't see it!

But you're right if course, if a user has the annoying habit of spamming the forum with multiple dead end threads, Ignore does nothing, if they're quoted, Ignore does nothing.

I don't use ignore, I just keep scrolling past the responses I know are written by people who I'm likely not interested in.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

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Made in us
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I have adopted a habit of being more liberal with hitting ignore, but going through my ignore list every few months to remove any names for which I cannot remember the exact reason I put them there.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut






 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Azreal13 wrote:
If anyone has "tells someone they're being ignored rather than clicking ignore and moving on" on their Dakka bingo cards, be sure and tick that off!


You do realize that 'ignore' really is a half measure, right? I've had Ninthmusketter on ignore for years, and I can still see his posts.


Sometimes I don't want to deal with people's gak anymore, but i don;t want them to feel like i;'d been beaten down and forced to withdraw by their 'superior' logic, i've been driven away by thing slike attitude or stupid arguments. (Comparing a sponged to a human in behavioral and intellectual terms. OWW! MY BRAIN!)




"But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..." 
   
Made in us
Keeper of the Flame





Monticello, IN

 Matt Swain wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Azreal13 wrote:
If anyone has "tells someone they're being ignored rather than clicking ignore and moving on" on their Dakka bingo cards, be sure and tick that off!


You do realize that 'ignore' really is a half measure, right? I've had Ninthmusketter on ignore for years, and I can still see his posts.


Sometimes I don't want to deal with people's gak anymore, but i don;t want them to feel like i;'d been beaten down and forced to withdraw by their 'superior' logic, i've been driven away by thing slike attitude or stupid arguments. (Comparing a sponged to a human in behavioral and intellectual terms. OWW! MY BRAIN!)





So basically you want the last word and to be right.

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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Its AoS, it doesn't have to make sense.
 
   
Made in us
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The funny part being it was him who put humans and sponges on the same intellectual level and I was pointing out the absurdity; the argument that 'hurts his brain' so much is his own.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
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The Great State of New Jersey

I want to revisit the "looked like a downed jetliner, larger than a submarine" observation from a few pages back:




This is a diagram of a Russian seismic survey submarine, you can read more about it here: http://www.hisutton.com/Seismic_Survey_Sub.html

So heres the rub - this thing hasn't been built yet, not even sure if its currently under construction or not, but definitely could not have been seen in 2004....

...unless something similar was secretly built previously. This thing is actually slightly smaller than a Typhoon (length wise), and back in '04 our pilots would not have had a lot of familiarity with the Typhoon or any submarine nearly that large - there were only 7 laid down that we know of, of which only 6 were completed. By 2004, half of them had been withdrawn from active service years prior and the other half were mostly spending their time rusting away at dock. Entirely possible one of them had been refit with wings or that there was an 8th one-off with something similar fixed to it, etc.

CoALabaer wrote:
Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
 
   
Made in us
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Seneca Nation of Indians

chaos0xomega wrote:
'04 our pilots would not have had a lot of familiarity with the Typhoon or any submarine nearly that large - there were only 7 laid down that we know of, of which only 6 were completed. By 2004, half of them had been withdrawn from active service years prior and the other half were mostly spending their time rusting away at dock. .


Point of fact,the guys that we trained to watch for those were still flying birds in '04. The decommissioned boats hadn't been out of circulation THAT long, only one of which had actually been scrapped, the rest had vanished into the Russian mothball fleet, and the Russians were loudly making noise about recommissioning them with new load outs or repurposing them for other uses at the time. I seem to remember that one of the suggestions that was actually examined was using them as submarine freighters.


Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
 
   
Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Just Tony wrote:
 Matt Swain wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
 Azreal13 wrote:
If anyone has "tells someone they're being ignored rather than clicking ignore and moving on" on their Dakka bingo cards, be sure and tick that off!


You do realize that 'ignore' really is a half measure, right? I've had Ninthmusketter on ignore for years, and I can still see his posts.


Sometimes I don't want to deal with people's gak anymore, but i don;t want them to feel like i;'d been beaten down and forced to withdraw by their 'superior' logic, i've been driven away by thing slike attitude or stupid arguments. (Comparing a sponged to a human in behavioral and intellectual terms. OWW! MY BRAIN!)





So basically you want the last word and to be right.


Whatever. I explained how i felt, take it how you want to.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
chaos0xomega wrote:
I want to revisit the "looked like a downed jetliner, larger than a submarine" observation from a few pages back:




This is a diagram of a Russian seismic survey submarine, you can read more about it here: http://www.hisutton.com/Seismic_Survey_Sub.html

So heres the rub - this thing hasn't been built yet, not even sure if its currently under construction or not, but definitely could not have been seen in 2004....

...unless something similar was secretly built previously. This thing is actually slightly smaller than a Typhoon (length wise), and back in '04 our pilots would not have had a lot of familiarity with the Typhoon or any submarine nearly that large - there were only 7 laid down that we know of, of which only 6 were completed. By 2004, half of them had been withdrawn from active service years prior and the other half were mostly spending their time rusting away at dock. Entirely possible one of them had been refit with wings or that there was an 8th one-off with something similar fixed to it, etc.


Honestly, what would this thing do? I mean, what goal justifies the titanic cost of building this monstrosity? I'm not attacking the OP, no. I'm asking what the payoff for building this would be especially is a country like russia who's economy is a radioactive trainwreck. (Fun fact time! Russia is the largest country in the world in terms of surface area, yet its GDP and economy are slightly smaller than New York state's! )

Given russia's economy is pretty much at third world levels for most people i imagine there'd have to be some pretty big ROI projected for this kind of expense. I can't see what this thing could do that smaller, cheaper vessels couldn't do as well or better. Unless it just gives pooty a thrill to have big biggest longest...sub in the world at his command.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/13 18:35:39


"But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..." 
   
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Leader of the Sept







Mineral deposits, oil fields, stuff of that nature I would think. Also long duration observation missions.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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 BaronIveagh wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
'04 our pilots would not have had a lot of familiarity with the Typhoon or any submarine nearly that large - there were only 7 laid down that we know of, of which only 6 were completed. By 2004, half of them had been withdrawn from active service years prior and the other half were mostly spending their time rusting away at dock. .


Point of fact,the guys that we trained to watch for those were still flying birds in '04. The decommissioned boats hadn't been out of circulation THAT long, only one of which had actually been scrapped, the rest had vanished into the Russian mothball fleet, and the Russians were loudly making noise about recommissioning them with new load outs or repurposing them for other uses at the time. I seem to remember that one of the suggestions that was actually examined was using them as submarine freighters.


Seeing one in the wild is a bit different from seeing photography of one, chances are none of them had ever encountered one before in-person given the ranks of everyone involved, all of them likely commissioned into the fleet after the fall of the Soviet Union when the boats were mostly rotting away at their piers - not that they probably would have encountered them anyway given that the Typhoons were mostly used to sail routes under the Arctic circle. Stick those long sensor wing arrays on one and a pilot isn't going to have any idea what they are looking at.

Also, to say they hadn't been out of circulation that long is a bit inaccurate. One of the 6 had been in drydock since 1990 and was only just starting to go through sea trials after completing a 12+ year long refit, 2 others had been formally withdrawn from active service 8 years prior to these events - but neither had left dock in 4-5 years prior to that anyway, so the withdrawal from service was more a formality than it was a practical change in status. The fourth had basically been sitting at dock since 1995 in need of repairs and wouldn't formally be retired until 1999. I could only find details on one of the boats (TK-20) remaining in consistent, regular and active use through the 90s and early 2000s, what little I could find about the other outstanding boat (TK-17) leads me to believe that it was mostly in a similar level of activity but there is an absence of detailed OSINT accounting for it unlike the other boats.

Honestly, what would this thing do? I mean, what goal justifies the titanic cost of building this monstrosity? I'm not attacking the OP, no. I'm asking what the payoff for building this would be especially is a country like russia who's economy is a radioactive trainwreck. (Fun fact time! Russia is the largest country in the world in terms of surface area, yet its GDP and economy are slightly smaller than New York state's! )

Given russia's economy is pretty much at third world levels for most people i imagine there'd have to be some pretty big ROI projected for this kind of expense. I can't see what this thing could do that smaller, cheaper vessels couldn't do as well or better. Unless it just gives pooty a thrill to have big biggest longest...sub in the world at his command.


Those wings carry sonar arrays which would be used to survey for seismic and geological activity under the arctic icecap - its an activity that is mostly done by surface vessels today, but can't be done in the arctic due to the presence of ice - the Russian solution is to go under the ice to survey the unsurveyable areas. The primary motivating factor here is to identify minerals and resources that will be available for exploitation in the coming decades as the arctic ice continues to thin out and withdraw - so the potential ROI is actually pretty massive. The cost is actually pretty low (provided the Russian gov't is being ransparent) as they are not being fit out with military hardware and systems which is where most of the cost in constructing a submarine is, russian sources indicate it only costs about 40% that of other Russian military submarines of similar size. You also have to keep purchasing power in mind - the Russians (and Chinese) can get a lot more for every dollar spent than the US can due to the significantly higher standards of living in the US (thats why the whole "the US spends more on defense than the next 10 nations combined" thing is a hilarious meme when you actually consider what all that defense spending actually gets us relative to our peers - our personnel expenditures alone are larger than the entire military budget of Russia or China, and it isn't because we have more personnel in uniform than they do).

And yes, Russia does currently have the biggest subs in the world - this would actually be smaller.

CoALabaer wrote:
Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
 
   
Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut






chaos0xomega wrote:
 BaronIveagh wrote:
chaos0xomega wrote:
'04 our pilots would not have had a lot of familiarity with the Typhoon or any submarine nearly that large - there were only 7 laid down that we know of, of which only 6 were completed. By 2004, half of them had been withdrawn from active service years prior and the other half were mostly spending their time rusting away at dock. .


Point of fact,the guys that we trained to watch for those were still flying birds in '04. The decommissioned boats hadn't been out of circulation THAT long, only one of which had actually been scrapped, the rest had vanished into the Russian mothball fleet, and the Russians were loudly making noise about recommissioning them with new load outs or repurposing them for other uses at the time. I seem to remember that one of the suggestions that was actually examined was using them as submarine freighters.


Seeing one in the wild is a bit different from seeing photography of one, chances are none of them had ever encountered one before in-person given the ranks of everyone involved, all of them likely commissioned into the fleet after the fall of the Soviet Union when the boats were mostly rotting away at their piers - not that they probably would have encountered them anyway given that the Typhoons were mostly used to sail routes under the Arctic circle. Stick those long sensor wing arrays on one and a pilot isn't going to have any idea what they are looking at.

Also, to say they hadn't been out of circulation that long is a bit inaccurate. One of the 6 had been in drydock since 1990 and was only just starting to go through sea trials after completing a 12+ year long refit, 2 others had been formally withdrawn from active service 8 years prior to these events - but neither had left dock in 4-5 years prior to that anyway, so the withdrawal from service was more a formality than it was a practical change in status. The fourth had basically been sitting at dock since 1995 in need of repairs and wouldn't formally be retired until 1999. I could only find details on one of the boats (TK-20) remaining in consistent, regular and active use through the 90s and early 2000s, what little I could find about the other outstanding boat (TK-17) leads me to believe that it was mostly in a similar level of activity but there is an absence of detailed OSINT accounting for it unlike the other boats.

Honestly, what would this thing do? I mean, what goal justifies the titanic cost of building this monstrosity? I'm not attacking the OP, no. I'm asking what the payoff for building this would be especially is a country like russia who's economy is a radioactive trainwreck. (Fun fact time! Russia is the largest country in the world in terms of surface area, yet its GDP and economy are slightly smaller than New York state's! )

Given russia's economy is pretty much at third world levels for most people i imagine there'd have to be some pretty big ROI projected for this kind of expense. I can't see what this thing could do that smaller, cheaper vessels couldn't do as well or better. Unless it just gives pooty a thrill to have big biggest longest...sub in the world at his command.


Those wings carry sonar arrays which would be used to survey for seismic and geological activity under the arctic icecap - its an activity that is mostly done by surface vessels today, but can't be done in the arctic due to the presence of ice - the Russian solution is to go under the ice to survey the unsurveyable areas. The primary motivating factor here is to identify minerals and resources that will be available for exploitation in the coming decades as the arctic ice continues to thin out and withdraw - so the potential ROI is actually pretty massive. The cost is actually pretty low (provided the Russian gov't is being ransparent) as they are not being fit out with military hardware and systems which is where most of the cost in constructing a submarine is, russian sources indicate it only costs about 40% that of other Russian military submarines of similar size. You also have to keep purchasing power in mind - the Russians (and Chinese) can get a lot more for every dollar spent than the US can due to the significantly higher standards of living in the US (thats why the whole "the US spends more on defense than the next 10 nations combined" thing is a hilarious meme when you actually consider what all that defense spending actually gets us relative to our peers - our personnel expenditures alone are larger than the entire military budget of Russia or China, and it isn't because we have more personnel in uniform than they do).

And yes, Russia does currently have the biggest subs in the world - this would actually be smaller.


To quote Vin Diesel in one of his movies "I live for this XXXX!"

I asked a reasonable question and you make an extremely reasonable, cogent, informative response, sans snark . This is one reason i stay on the internet, the occasional diamond among the detritus. I exalted this and wish i could do more.

I was thinking that we should not be looking for more oilfields, we should be sinking money into permanent alternatives to fossil fuels. However russia's flaming, radioactive, toxic trainwreck of a third world economy depends on fossil fuels for survival, so yes, i guess putting the rubles into this is sensible from the perspective of pooty.

I am somewhat surprised they want to builds an original submarine when they could just repurpose one of the Typhoon class hulls at maybe a fraction of the cost of a new hull. Remove the missile and torpedo systems and you'd have lots of space to work with. Oh well, i guess pooty has to keep his oligarch buddies in the construction contracting business happy. I should realize a kratocracy can't be expected be logical.

You did a great job making sense of this, or at least pointing me in the direction i could see the sense of it from the russians (Pootys') POV. It was informative and thought provoking. I hope oy keep posting like this.

(But i still think america wastes waay too much on defense spending that we should spend on education, infrastructure, new energy, etc. )


"But the universe is a big place, and whatever happens, you will not be missed..." 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






The passive-aggressive is strong in this one.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

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Guys please don't get the thread locked, it has been such interesting reading so far. :(

 Grey Templar wrote:
 Matt Swain wrote:
I think some reluctance to agree to the possibility of ETI is that a lot of humans just can't acknowledge the possibility of a better species existing in 'their' universe.

I mean, what if we did make contact, or were contacted by, an intelligent starfaring species that had gotten its gak together, stopped having wars, achieved a peaceful advanced culture, eliminated scarcity, etc.

Now on earth people can just shrug and say "Ehh, war, murder, yeah, bad gak happens, it's just human nature, we can't change it."

Then the little grey gits with big heads and eyes show up and say "Uh, actually, if you really wanted too..."


Its quite an assumption that a space faring race has "gotten its gak together" just by virtue of being a space faring race. More likely, they're just as fractured and messed up as us. And if they're not, well, they are in big trouble because it means we are gonna kick their butts all the way to Alpha Centauri after we've stripped their technology off whatever ship they come here in.


There was a quote I read some time ago about any space-faring race (which has gained the ability to travel between stars) will have to have resolved it's self-destructive and violent tendencies, or it would have destroyed itself with the technology before reaching that point. Sadly I can't remember who said it - possibly either Carl Sagan or Stephen Hawkins?

Although I know Hawkins issued a kind of 'warning' some years ago about it perhaps not being that good an idea to broadcast our existence quite so widely, as we don't know who is listening and whether they would be benevolent, so who knows!

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"Self-destructive" and "violent" tendencies really aren't. They are maladaptive, aspects of traits which are beneficial in natural conditions but have become detrimental in the wholly unnatural conditions of large-scale societies. The other aspect is a tragedy of the commons, where the self-destructive act of a whole population is tied to behaviors that are benign or even helpful at an individual level.

But those aren't our most powerful drives. Take any random group of strangers and put them in a situation, the first thing they will do is make their best effort at communication and cooperation. Even our most violent actions are done only within a context of cooperation and being part of a larger group. The human "tendancy" for violence is entirely subservient to the human tendency for cooperation. If it wasn't, we would never have created large scale civilization in the first place. And we have no reason to believe any other intelligent species would be different.

To put more simply, any species able to create civilization has already overcome any inherent drive for violence long before they hit the bronze age, let alone space travel.

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I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
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 NinthMusketeer wrote:

But those aren't our most powerful drives. Take any random group of strangers and put them in a situation, the first thing they will do is make their best effort at communication and cooperation. Even our most violent actions are done only within a context of cooperation and being part of a larger group. The human "tendancy" for violence is entirely subservient to the human tendency for cooperation. If it wasn't, we would never have created large scale civilization in the first place. And we have no reason to believe any other intelligent species would be different.


Actually we created civilization to protect ourselves from other groups more efficiently. Archeological and Paleontological finds suggest that violence is hot on the heels of prostitution and hunting, possibly beating out even farming, when it comes to human occupations. Further, once those strangers determine who can communicate and who can't, they immediately segregate into groups, which then typically come into conflict with one another.

Which means that it's entirely possible that we could encounter an alien species that believes in 'preemptive defense'.


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 Pacific wrote:
Guys please don't get the thread locked, it has been such interesting reading so far. :(

 Grey Templar wrote:
 Matt Swain wrote:
I think some reluctance to agree to the possibility of ETI is that a lot of humans just can't acknowledge the possibility of a better species existing in 'their' universe.

I mean, what if we did make contact, or were contacted by, an intelligent starfaring species that had gotten its gak together, stopped having wars, achieved a peaceful advanced culture, eliminated scarcity, etc.

Now on earth people can just shrug and say "Ehh, war, murder, yeah, bad gak happens, it's just human nature, we can't change it."

Then the little grey gits with big heads and eyes show up and say "Uh, actually, if you really wanted too..."


Its quite an assumption that a space faring race has "gotten its gak together" just by virtue of being a space faring race. More likely, they're just as fractured and messed up as us. And if they're not, well, they are in big trouble because it means we are gonna kick their butts all the way to Alpha Centauri after we've stripped their technology off whatever ship they come here in.


There was a quote I read some time ago about any space-faring race (which has gained the ability to travel between stars) will have to have resolved it's self-destructive and violent tendencies, or it would have destroyed itself with the technology before reaching that point. Sadly I can't remember who said it - possibly either Carl Sagan or Stephen Hawkins?

Although I know Hawkins issued a kind of 'warning' some years ago about it perhaps not being that good an idea to broadcast our existence quite so widely, as we don't know who is listening and whether they would be benevolent, so who knows!


Yes, someone said it. It was also a stupid thing to say, humanity is itself a good example. We still are as violent and self-destructive as ever, and have more and more destructive means than ever before. Yet, we have not wiped ourselves out. The opposite in fact.

If anything, a species as fiercely as competitive as ours would be more likely to develop advanced space faring technology. You want to beat your neighbors to space, beat them to making extraterrestrial colonies, etc...

If there are space faring aliens out there they would most likely be fractured into as many different geopolitical organizations as we humans are. Each competing with each other for resources, just on a larger scale than we currently have on Earth. That would actually make more sense with what we have seen in history, competition and war is what drives innovation and advancement, not peace and harmony. Peace and harmony leads to stagnation and decay.

18th-19th century China is an example of what an insular alien society would look like if it was totally unified and had no internal divisions or threats. A society with no drive towards innovation or development, only technological stagnation.

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 BaronIveagh wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:

But those aren't our most powerful drives. Take any random group of strangers and put them in a situation, the first thing they will do is make their best effort at communication and cooperation. Even our most violent actions are done only within a context of cooperation and being part of a larger group. The human "tendancy" for violence is entirely subservient to the human tendency for cooperation. If it wasn't, we would never have created large scale civilization in the first place. And we have no reason to believe any other intelligent species would be different.


Actually we created civilization to protect ourselves from other groups more efficiently. Archeological and Paleontological finds suggest that violence is hot on the heels of prostitution and hunting, possibly beating out even farming, when it comes to human occupations. Further, once those strangers determine who can communicate and who can't, they immediately segregate into groups, which then typically come into conflict with one another.

Which means that it's entirely possible that we could encounter an alien species that believes in 'preemptive defense'.
I don't know where you got that narrative but it is very inaccurate.

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I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
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On an Express Elevator to Hell!!

NinthMusketeer wrote:"Self-destructive" and "violent" tendencies really aren't. They are maladaptive, aspects of traits which are beneficial in natural conditions but have become detrimental in the wholly unnatural conditions of large-scale societies. The other aspect is a tragedy of the commons, where the self-destructive act of a whole population is tied to behaviors that are benign or even helpful at an individual level.

But those aren't our most powerful drives. Take any random group of strangers and put them in a situation, the first thing they will do is make their best effort at communication and cooperation. Even our most violent actions are done only within a context of cooperation and being part of a larger group. The human "tendancy" for violence is entirely subservient to the human tendency for cooperation. If it wasn't, we would never have created large scale civilization in the first place. And we have no reason to believe any other intelligent species would be different.

To put more simply, any species able to create civilization has already overcome any inherent drive for violence long before they hit the bronze age, let alone space travel.


Managed to find the quote (I think one of them) and it's Stephen Hawking.
https://fortune.com/2017/03/09/stephen-hawking-technology-humanity/

I agree completely that there is an inherent drive for co-operation - our species is social in nature and our genes are passed on through success of our tribes/groups.

But, the instinct for competition is still very much who we are (I'm grossly simplifying here but you could argue is part of the drive for survival of life itself) and specifically amongst humans within tribal groups. The concept of 'us' vs 'them' is a very powerful one and some of the worst atrocities in human history have been carried out on that basis.
Has that really changed? We've seen the resurgence of populist governments in the last decade in Hungary, Turkey, the Philippines, sadly the UK and US too that have driven that narrative where our instincts for compassion and caring for our neighbours are overwhelmed by a fear for our survival, of our own group, and to achieve this that 'other' (who we do not recognise as a human being, or like 'us') - and at that point the violence still occurs.

So re. this topic, right now the civilisation-ending capabilities are restricted to the use of nuclear weapons. We are fortunate that the production of these weapons requires a high technological base, and the creation of them can be monitored by international bodies. You can't create a weapon that could kill millions with a bit of tin foil and a microwave. But what if that was to change in future? The creation of new energy forms that have a vast destructive potential, or can be produced more simply. The use of DNA-printing devices, where suddenly someone with a medical degree can produce a highly dangerous virus - this technology in particular is likely to be created within the next 20 years.
At this point the cracks in our 'global' society become potentially more dangerous. It would only need a single group or person, feeling aggrieved or persecuted against that tribal 'other' (whatever form that might take; political, religious, ethnic) to release that weapon. And events of the last 18 months have to show that really our balance as a civilisation and society is absolutely not set in stone.

Re. Grey Templar's comment about violence in society, reading Yuval Harari's book Sapiens quite recently, we are actually far less violent/destructive now than we have been as a species at any other time of our history, in terms of total volumes of death caused by war (either state or internecine). That's just looking at the raw numbers, of course with media coverage and the fact that war is now available for everyone to view 24/7 it would appear otherwise.

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Yet, we have not wiped ourselves out. The opposite in fact.

We're in the middle of an anthropogenic extinction event and I am sure it will not cause a collapse of foodchains across the world.
Oh, and the climate change which is pretty much at point of no return.
I'm sure we'll be fine.
   
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 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I don't know where you got that narrative but it is very inaccurate.


"The evolution of lethal intergroup violence" Kelly, 2005

Also the dig at Jebel Sahaba. When 40% of bodies found on site have apparently died of weapon injuries, odds are good that those weapons were probably in the hands of other hominids, 13,000 years ago or not.


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I'm going to back out of this line of discussion now, I don't want to invest the effort into untangling that.

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So here's a random thought that struck me while watching Discovery.

What if the classic "Grey" wasn't an example of an alien race, but an engineered organism designed specifically to pilot an exploratory craft and designed after the template of the dominant species of the planet being travelled to?

I mean, we're well on our own way to being able to build organics from scratch, wouldn't it be feasible that a more developed spacefaring civilization would be able to do this too?

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The classic "grey" never appeared in any recountings of aliens prior to the 1960s when it was popularized by one abduction claim. I find it very suspicious that the aliens that abduct people change their look based on popular fiction of the time.
Also why would you design an organism so poorly suited to space/air travel and yet so clearly different to the dominant species?
   
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It became popular in the 60s yes, but to say "it never appeared" prior to then is objectively untrue.

I can't answer your questions as to the design as that would require speculation upon speculation on something that's purely hypothetical in the first instance.

However, making assumptions as to what they may or may not be suited to, without establishing a theoretical baseline of their biology nor how they might indeed be travelling on board a vessel isn't a compelling rebuttal.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

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I think the classic grey being some sort of drone makes perfect sense. Seen this theory in various places and it kind of makes sense.

If you were advanced to be sending out scout ships/probes to get data and explore the universe. It makes sense you wouldn't be sending your best and brightest on these potentially dangerous trips on the front lines..

IF interstellar travel has been achieves by these civilisations, there is no reason to assume it would be totaly safe or that their technology would be infallible. Anomalies solar flares and other things all could occur at random. I don't see why assume whatever civilisation is doing this exploration/visits would have mastered the technology, and not be in the process of development. After all the universe is a very big place full of very weird and strange phenomenon.

If we assume they have total mastery of the technology and knowledge of the universe, why bother with any kind of exploration in the first place using physical craft?

The only thing that bugs me with this theory is: Why you'd make your drone bipedal humonoid.. Seems like a very inefficient frame to work with.

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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


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 Azreal13 wrote:
It became popular in the 60s yes, but to say "it never appeared" prior to then is objectively untrue.

I can't answer your questions as to the design as that would require speculation upon speculation on something that's purely hypothetical in the first instance.

However, making assumptions as to what they may or may not be suited to, without establishing a theoretical baseline of their biology nor how they might indeed be travelling on board a vessel isn't a compelling rebuttal.

You're right, it did appear before that, in sci-fi. 1891 novel if wikipedia is to be believed, and a handful other novels afterwards.
But yes, I find it extremely unlikely that actual aliens would have the same shape as invented by a sci-fi writer.
It makes sense you wouldn't be sending your best and brightest on these potentially dangerous trips on the front lines..

Except that's literally what we do, because what sense is there to send a dullard on a mission of exploration? If you just need something to gather samples, a machine will do the job so much better than a sentient being.

Like I said before, nothing about ufo and alien sightings makes coherent sense, they function on the same basis as conspiracy stories- so complex and deep they have the whole world dancing to their tune, yet so simple and easy to detect that a dentist from Nowhereville can decipher their evil plans. These aliens are also so advanced we cannot tell what they want, but so clumsy as to be detected by basic equipment like radar and so careless as to be flying on the same path as primitive airplanes. They can travel through the stars to observe humanity, but have to land and probe butts to learn about us, and apparently are worse than med student at keeping victims knocked out.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/20 22:58:57


 
   
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Devon, UK

Except that's literally what we do


After we'd sent cats, dogs, monkeys...

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

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Cronch wrote:
 Azreal13 wrote:
It became popular in the 60s yes, but to say "it never appeared" prior to then is objectively untrue.

I can't answer your questions as to the design as that would require speculation upon speculation on something that's purely hypothetical in the first instance.

However, making assumptions as to what they may or may not be suited to, without establishing a theoretical baseline of their biology nor how they might indeed be travelling on board a vessel isn't a compelling rebuttal.

You're right, it did appear before that, in sci-fi. 1891 novel if wikipedia is to be believed, and a handful other novels afterwards.
But yes, I find it extremely unlikely that actual aliens would have the same shape as invented by a sci-fi writer.
It makes sense you wouldn't be sending your best and brightest on these potentially dangerous trips on the front lines..

Except that's literally what we do, because what sense is there to send a dullard on a mission of exploration? If you just need something to gather samples, a machine will do the job so much better than a sentient being.

Like I said before, nothing about ufo and alien sightings makes coherent sense, they function on the same basis as conspiracy stories- so complex and deep they have the whole world dancing to their tune, yet so simple and easy to detect that a dentist from Nowhereville can decipher their evil plans. These aliens are also so advanced we cannot tell what they want, but so clumsy as to be detected by basic equipment like radar and so careless as to be flying on the same path as primitive airplanes. They can travel through the stars to observe humanity, but have to land and probe butts to learn about us, and apparently are worse than med student at keeping victims knocked out.


Except we don't.. We send robots/probes to places like mars and beyond as its too dangerous/technologically challenging for live humans.
Yes we routinely send people to the ISS, but that's only because we've been at it for a while and its really not that far.. We haven't followed up to the moon with more people really either but probes(robots essentially) plenty. The human space faring was built on sending out monkeys and dogs and frogs out before humans as well. Why would we risk humans being blasted into the unknown if a an android/robot could get the same data?

The only reason we currently send humans because our robotics/ engineering just cant perform as well as a humans.. And we have not developed sufficient AI as well.
If we could make androids truly in every sense of the word, they would be more survivable and resilient than a human, not require the same level of life support or be as vulnerable to void of space/radiation. I think we would be sending these androids out rather than humans to do really dangerous jobs/trips if we could actually make them and certainly if you could somehow interface with them and operate them remotely.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/20 23:37:03


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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
 
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